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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:22 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
the Goat wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I would have thought that too but I have never been able to find any American SD CRT rear projection TV's with RGB. If they existed I assume Namco would have used them for the deluxe Time Crisis cabs instead of NTSC converters. Those PCBs all output RGB natively.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say NTSC? The NTSC system is fully compatible with RGB signals. The two are not mutually exclusive.


Yes they are (mutually exclusive). They are completely different color systems and definitely not fully compatible. You can have a TV that accepts both but a signal is one or the other, never both. Plenty of displays are only compatible with one but not the other. In fact, NTSC TV's with RGB are a tiny minority outside Japan.

A lot of people in Europe started using RGB for American and Japanese import consoles because their Pal and Secam TV's lacked NTSC compatibility. An American console could be used via RGB as long as the TV could handle a 60hz signal. If you connected it via Svideo or composite video, you got a black and white image as they use NTSC, Pal or Secam color.

American TV's had the opposite issue. They only work with NTSC or component Video with no RGB (in 99.999% of cases). Most arcade PCBs only output RGB. This was no issue for regular cabs as CRT arcade monitors accept RGB (they have no NTSC decoder). But Namco used consumer crt rear projection tv's for their deluxe cabs which only accepted NTSC color.

Namco's rgb to NTSC boards convert RGB color to NTSC which it outputs via composite video. It was only needed for the color as their 246 pcbs have 480p and 480i rgb options.


You wrote a lot. But you didn't answer my question. Are you talking about NTSC RF modulation schemes? In a retro gaming context, most people talk about NTSC in the context of the number of scan lines (525) and the frame/field rate (29.97/59.94). Both of those NTSC features are supported through RGB.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:41 am 



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Ntsc in any context is a color system. RGB is a different color system. Component video is different again, as is Pal and secam. None of these are compatible with each other without an adapter. Using the wrong one results in a black and white image (at best).

You can't connect an RGB source into an NTSC TV with no RGB port. As I said already.... Namco's RGB to NTSC boards convert the RGB color to NTSC. They don't change the resolution or refresh rate as those 246 PCBs natively output both 480p and 480i rgb signals.

They are similar in functionality to these Jrok boards:

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:19 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Ntsc in any context is a color system. RGB is a different color system.

You failed to answer my question yet again.

How about this, imagine an SNES originally sold in North America. It has an RF output and a Nintendo multiout with composite video output, s-video output, and RGB video output. Which of those output NTSC video?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:32 am 


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RF, composite, and S-Video used NTSC colour encoding, RGB did not.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:08 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
RF, composite, and S-Video used NTSC colour encoding, RGB did not.


Exactly.

And, as I said, NTSC color and RGB are not compatible with each other. The majority of arcade boards only output rgb and therefore can not be used with an American TV without a color transcoder like a jrok or Namco's own RGB to NTSC converters.

Arcade boards output a higher voltage too so you also need a resistor array to use CGA and EGA pcbs on a consumer TV (which is why people use a Supergun).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:50 am 


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I think that a good practical comparison is PAL video. If you watch something that was recorded for PAL like, say, The Muppet Show (which was recorded at Elstree), the color palette looks weird because they didn't really translate the system seamlessly. It looks weirdly dark, as does alot of the BBC stuff from the 80's.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:39 pm 


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CRT does what LCDon't
https://youtu.be/V8BVTHxc4LM


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:26 pm 


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Unless you want to use them on a modern graphics card (none of them support VGA) or at high refresh rates (CRTs generally don't support them at high resolutions, and DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapters don't support high refresh rates for CRT monitors that do have moderately high refresh rates), or you know, actually own one, since high-end CRT monitors are very rare and very expensive.

People love the FW900, except the thing weighs a hundred pounds for a 24" monitor and you'd be hard-pressed to find an adapter that will output its maximum refresh rate of 98Hz at 1920x1200 resolution.

I do greatly regret throwing away my reasonably high-end Viewsonic 19" CRT, but it topped out at 1600x1200 at 60Hz, which was flicker-city. You needed like 72Hz to get flicker-free video on a PC CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:19 pm 


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I can take that burdensome FW900 away for you bro, it's cool I lift


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:18 pm 



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Flicker is usually only an issue on CRTs with interlaced resolutions. Interlacing halves the frame rate so while 1080i, for example, is 60hz, it is only showing 30 full frames per second.

This issue is made worse on Windows PCs which often treat interlaced modes as 30hz progressive modes. E.g. 480i 60hz is displayed as 480p 30hz.

One of the issues with how CRT specs were stated is that they used interlaced modes to state a higher top resolution - which is obviously no good for computer graphics. They should really be stated as a range of horizontal and vertical refresh rates. The Sony G90 specs state 15khz to 150khz horizontal and 38hz to 150hz vertical. This is the top spec CRT device I have ever come across.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:54 pm 


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Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:55 pm 


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Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:57 pm 



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Flicker is an issue at 60hz for desktop applications.
Thats why most manufacturers recommend a max resolution running at 66Hz~85Hz.

And even cheap CRT Monitors are capable of doing 120hz+ at 1280x960 interlaced or higher.
Just take the highest frequency it can do at that resolution and double it (although it cant exceed the max vertical refresh rate, which is 160hz for most monitors). But yes, flicker can be noticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:34 pm 


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sliceypete wrote:
Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

That's the version with the low-resolution tube. 70 EUR feels a bit expensive to me for that - I've seen the PVM-9L3(*) for less on eBay, although without an RGB input card. The size is a subjective thing, for me it's a really nice benchtop monitor for testing things without wondering if some issue I'm seeing is real or caused by the scaler/TFT, but I would prefer something larger for gaming.

(*) two generations newer, same Hires CRT as the 9042/9045, but RGB/component input only using the BKM-129X board which can be a bit hard to find

Quote:
Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

The usual CRT issues - burn-in, convergence, scratches on the tube's surface, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:54 pm 



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I have PVM 6041QM, PVM 9L3 and PVM 14L4 :) Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:11 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Guspaz wrote:
Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.


It's a matter of opinion (and marketing). I have never had an issue with flicker when playing 60hz games in 60hz. I know that some people are more sensitive to it than others though.

I am super sensitive to the flicker and blur from interlaced resolutions. It drives me mad when consoles like the PS2 display 240p games in 480i. I don't notice it on games that are meant to be 480i though.

Anyway, 90% of the games I'd play on a CRT are around 60hz and look best at native refresh rates. I rarely notice any flicker unless I am looking at text-heavy documents.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:17 pm 



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sliceypete wrote:
Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)


Yes. Definitely too small to game on as your main display. It's OK if you are making a small portable novelty arcade thingy but not for use at home. I wouldn't bother with anything smaller than 20" (19" visible).

For $70 you are far better off picking up a larger CRT TV with component video if you live in America, or one with RGB if you are in Europe or Japan.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:05 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.


It's a matter of opinion (and marketing). I have never had an issue with flicker when playing 60hz games in 60hz. I know that some people are more sensitive to it than others though.

I am super sensitive to the flicker and blur from interlaced resolutions. It drives me mad when consoles like the PS2 display 240p games in 480i. I don't notice it on games that are meant to be 480i though.

Anyway, 90% of the games I'd play on a CRT are around 60hz and look best at native refresh rates. I rarely notice any flicker unless I am looking at text-heavy documents.

Agreed. I used 60Hz modes on my PC-CRTs extensively in the 90s and early 00s for gaming without any problem. Only an (minor) issue when doing text/productivity applications


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:54 am 


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That "PC CRTs flicker at 60Hz" matter has long been overblown, indeed.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:26 am 


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Or not? Cause many people here specifically say they notice(d) it. For me it was desktop + text type screens that I'd see it on. Games are usually moving enough that it didn't bother me in them.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:23 pm 


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Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Classicgamer wrote:
sliceypete wrote:
Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)


Yes. Definitely too small to game on as your main display. It's OK if you are making a small portable novelty arcade thingy but not for use at home. I wouldn't bother with anything smaller than 20" (19" visible).

For $70 you are far better off picking up a larger CRT TV with component video if you live in America, or one with RGB if you are in Europe or Japan.


Thanks for the input, I think I will pass on this one and wait to find a 14' or 20' one down the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:40 pm 


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Einzelherz wrote:
Or not? Cause many people here specifically say they notice(d) it. For me it was desktop + text type screens that I'd see it on. Games are usually moving enough that it didn't bother me in them.

Yes it is, internet-style because it's delivered as a blanket statement.
Think of humanity for about 30 years using CRT monitors at 60Hz, only a minority ever complained about getting 'eyeaches' and learned about increasing the refresh.
The issue always existed, but because a sample of humanity here today states it without mention of that extremely important nuance, doesn't make the reality of the phenomenon any bigger than it ever was.
It's kinda like LED PWM flicker, we've made a lot of noise about it, even I did for a time because it affected me somehow, but it only really affects a minority, and that's beyond worth just mentioning, it is mandatory to if objectivity ever mattered.
So 'overblown' ? if the issue is generalized without the minority precision; yes definitely.



EDIT:
werk91 wrote:
CRT does what LCDon't
http://youtu.be/V8BVTHxc4LM

- Old nerds 'discover' in 2019 what 10-20 years younger gaming nerds knew for like 15 years, then post a video on an influent channel.
- Average FW900 prices on ebay; +1$ with each view of that video. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:35 pm 


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Lmao, as if FW900 wasn't stupidly expensive already :mrgreen:
All in all I was just pleasantly surpised to such a mainstream outlet post something of this nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:16 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 119
Nevermind the FW900's, I'm sure everyone will be looking for decent PC CRT's now and prices will eventually be just as ridiculous as they are now for PVMs.
It's no longer going to be a good deal like they're right now, specially when people realize they're also very good for retrogaming but costs less than a fraction of an old and overpriced PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:27 am 


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Hopefully it won't reach those levels, since that was consumer tech there's many more of them around I imagine.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:51 am 



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Here in Germany, a couple of search requests popped up for an FW900 right after the DF video, it's nuts. One guy wants to pay 1000€ for one. I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:04 am 


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Quote:
I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens

will sell right away.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:25 am 



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SuperSpongo wrote:
Here in Germany, a couple of search requests popped up for an FW900 right after the DF video, it's nuts. One guy wants to pay 1000€ for one. I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens :lol:


Be bold, ebay no reserve (that's how I sell everything).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:23 pm 



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I'd rather be rich :oops: :mrgreen:

Fudoh wrote:
will sell right away.


Right now I wouldn't be suprised. But a couple of months ago a seller tried to get rid of his for 1500. I checked on his offer every now and then and saw the price go down over the weeks. I think the offer disappeared sub 1000€.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:29 pm 


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Wait a few years and see the price *really* go up. I'm looking to retire in a nice cotswold cottage after selling off my NEC & BVM monitors in 2040 :)


Last edited by andykara2003 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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