shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:07 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:09 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
austin532 wrote:
I guess what I had imagined in my mind was something already pre-built that you just plug in RGB/Component in one end and output clean composite out the other.


The Timeharvest Supergun also accepts RGB input and outputs composite or svideo. Those units are preassembled in a nice case with a normal power supply. I think that's what you want. Plug in SCART cable, plug in a composite cable, flip the SCART IN/OUT switch to "IN", and power it on.

I briefly tried the feature out. I didn't spend much time with it, but the results were fine.

It's also a pretty good little supergun.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Last edited by orange808 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 4236
Location: Québec City
andykara2003 wrote:
I’m wondering - I’ll use the console on a couple of my consumer CRTs - a Sony trinitron (good UK made set pre 1997).

Is it likely that a decent external comb filter would far surpass the ones in even these higher end consumer sets resulting in a much better composite image?

In my experience, the comb filters in Sony sets are pretty good - provided that there's one to fucking begin with (I say that because the PVM-2030/2530 doesn't have one - only a notch filter - and I thought the stock NES looked absolutely horrid on that set)

especially on later sets the, composite picture for games looked pretty clean I thought. I had an a later early 2000s FD Wega and the NES looked pretty damn clean on it. On my 1986 Sony XBR, the NES's dot crawl and it's shimmering can't be hidden as well without blurry the image with a low sharpness setting, but other composite sources look fantastic on it (I have a Gamecube plugged through composite on it and it looks nice). The color handling of that set for composite is pretty good.

I think what will dictate what kinda picture you get, is whether there's a 3-line liter or a digital 3-D filter in yours
_________________
-FM Synth & Black Metal-


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Arizona, US
I feel like it goes both ways. Most games from that era benefit from composite blending and give that authentic and intended look but their are some non dithering games that do look better in RGB and reveal much more detail that you normally wouldn't see.

I am aware that comb filters tend to soften the image but the big trade off is a much cleaner signal.
_________________
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 1223
nmalinoski wrote:
I think the main desire to use composite over RGB is because there were a number of games that relied on a combination of dithering and how the composite video encoding process treated that dithering to cause color blending and transparency effects. There's a writeup with screenshots of this effect as it relates to HD Retrovision's future HDMIzer product on RetroRGB.

Sure, the Megadrive uses lots of dithering - I'm not sure if I'm that bothered though. That unit looks amazing. Shame there'll be no version with analogue 480p out for CRTs.

Taiyaki wrote:
I think S-video still turns out better personally.

I'll experiment with that, thanks :)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:19 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1879
andykara2003 wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
I think the main desire to use composite over RGB is because there were a number of games that relied on a combination of dithering and how the composite video encoding process treated that dithering to cause color blending and transparency effects. There's a writeup with screenshots of this effect as it relates to HD Retrovision's future HDMIzer product on RetroRGB.

Sure, the Megadrive uses lots of dithering - I'm not sure if I'm that bothered though. That unit looks amazing. Shame there'll be no version with analogue 480p out for CRTs.

There won't? Where did you hear/read that?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:49 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
I'll put it this way. The ideas for HDMIzer are *very* ambitious.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:30 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 2398
Location: Montréal, Canada
They really aren't overly ambitious in terms of what they intend to support. The only question will be if they can deliver it at a low enough price point to keep the features in. Keep in mind that they have larger economies of scale on their products than hobbyists do: they don't do manufacturing runs of just a few dozen units.

I don't know if the plans have changed, but the concept image that was previously on their website had VGA output planned.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:50 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 163
If you talk to the LaserDisc guys, they'll say the Analog Devices ADV7842 is the best 3D comb filter in the land.

Interestingly, you can get the ADV7842 from Analog Devices as a demo board that has a HDMI output, a ton of analog inputs (including SCART), and a serial console where you can adjust all the options. This is available through your usual electronics suppliers like DigiKey for ~$220.

The only capture cards with a ADV7842 front-end that I'm aware of are from Magewell, but these apparently have the 3D comb feature of the ADV7842 turned off. Magewell boxes are also the only capture cards I've seen that can take sync-on-composite/luma without a sync stripper.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
If you talk to the LaserDisc guys, they'll say the Analog Devices ADV7842 is the best 3D comb filter in the land.

Interestingly, you can get the ADV7842 from Analog Devices as a demo board that has a HDMI output, a ton of analog inputs (including SCART), and a serial console where you can adjust all the options. This is available through your usual electronics suppliers like DigiKey for ~$220.

The only capture cards with a ADV7842 front-end that I'm aware of are from Magewell, but these apparently have the 3D comb feature of the ADV7842 turned off. Magewell boxes are also the only capture cards I've seen that can take sync-on-composite/luma without a sync stripper.


I'm sure that one is nice, but is it good for video games?

Comb filter sounds so innocuous. It sounds harmless. :) After all, they have been in "zero*" processing lag displays for decades, but that comb filter is very similar to a deinterlacer.

We aren't guessing on the missing information in a field; instead, we're guessing on the information to remove. To make good guesses, we need a nice big fat frame buffer--and the frame buffer means processing lag.

The DVD recorders that LD guys appreciate also have this kind of complex processing. They work the same way. I have a couple of them. Can't game with them.

I don't believe there are any of these high performance adaptive 3d digital frame-buffered comb filters with low enough lag for gaming. I'll shut up if someone can post one that is, but I've never found one.

We might have better luck looking at the older SVHS machines for a compromise that doesn't add latency.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:22 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Philippines
andykara2003 wrote:
I’ve been away from the site for a while and am finding it fascinating that some long time RGB people are starting to look at composite for authenticity as a possible alternative, even though they have RGB consoles. I’m interested in this too - I’ve just bought a Megadrive 1 which is supposed to have a terrible composite - I wonder if we’ll eventually get composite mods for retro consoles?

Is it likely that a decent external comb filter would far surpass the ones in even these higher end consumer sets resulting in a much better composite image?


I think our negative perceptions and memories of composite signal (and even RF) may have been a bit exaggerated, thanks in large part to Genesis / Mega Drive model one units and/or televisions that had poor filters. I doubt we'll ever see mod jobs to improve the composite out from retro consoles. Perhaps that would only make sense with Genesis model 1 units but then again you could always opt to get a Genesis 3 for a more convenient solution.

nmalinoski wrote:
I think the main desire to use composite over RGB is because there were a number of games that relied on a combination of dithering and how the composite video encoding process treated that dithering (on more modern displays).to cause color blending and transparency effects.


That's definitely a factor for me. But also, sometimes I get so used to the pure and clean colors of RGB signal that I no longer notice them. So I guess it's nice to mix em up a bit. In the end, I've come to appreciate all kinds of video signals from RF to RGB and HDMI.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:35 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 163
orange808 wrote:
I don't believe there are any of these high performance adaptive 3d digital frame-buffered comb filters with low enough lag for gaming. I'll shut up if someone can post one that is, but I've never found one.

Extron DSC 301 HD is a single frame of lag and has a 3D comb filter.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:02 am 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Extron DSC 301 HD is a single frame of lag and has a 3D comb filter.


Could maybe be good. Maybe.

I didn't do any testing with the analog input at all. Did anyone else bother to try it?

I didn't bother to try 240p input. Does it accept 240p? If so, how well does it scale?

How is the comb filter?

Is the lag the same on the analog input?

Fudoh?
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:07 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 12486
Location: Germany
didn't test. Since 480i handling is terrible, I didn't go any further. What's to expect? If 240p works at all, it's certainly treated as 480i and this means increased lag.

It really means nothing that there's a 3D CF in place, results can still be rubbish. Took my years to find a decent setup for laserdisc playback and I don't trust the "next best" video processor if it wasn't specifically aimed at analogue SD in the first place.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 1223
I tested composite vs RGB on a consumer trinitron and a nice still-sharp consumer shadow mask (Loewe E3001 chassis) using a 1-chip SNES and Megadrive and found that I much preferred RGB on the Loewe than composite on either. The dithering is still there, but the for me, a nice shadow mask set is soft enough while remaining clean to mitigate the dithering to a nice degree. The trinitron's aperture grille is a bit harsh for dithering, but I'll just use the Loewe for those games & have given up on the idea of composite.

I can still appreciate the idea of using composite, but it's not for me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:13 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 12486
Location: Germany
for video games it's really a tough concept, but I was blown away when I first tried good comb filters on video material. Best example: when Pioneer (as a media publisher) started to transition from laserdisc to DVD and started to reissue their anime catalogue on DVD, they mostly used analogue tape masters as their source, but what's worse, they used crappy comb filters. If you throw in an early Tenchi Muyo DVD (with the old Pioneer logo with the golden tuning fork) you get rainbows and crazy dot crawl from the DVD (DVD is native component).

If you take the laserdiscs with the same content, run them through a proper comb filter and display the same opening intro, it's a night and day difference. Zero rainbows, zero dot crawl. Easily as big a difference as going composite to s-video for video game sources.

My personal test sequence ever since - just a shame that it requires a native composite source to run the test.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:41 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2017
Posts: 2476
Location: Eating the Rich
Those early Pioneer anime DVDs are some of the worst I've ever seen Fudoh. Knowing all the details it makes even more sense now.

Fortunately Tenchi is on BD but many others the LD is still the best bet.

With something like Project A-ko (not Pioneer but similar situation) the only reason to get the new DVDs is price and availability. AVOID the old DVDs for sure even if they aren't as bad as some of the worst Pioneers releases.
_________________
Mmhmm


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 1223
Despite my previous comment, I can see what people say when they say that even on a consumer CRT, they find the modern outlook of producing an image that's as sharp and pixellated as possible to look inauthentic - not giving them that nostalgic feel as it's not how they remember their games to be back in the day. This is also why I rarely use my BVM.

I'm buying a 2-chip SNES to compare to my 1-chip on my consumer CRTs. I'd like an image that's softer than RGB+1-chip but still defined. Maybe the RGB from the 2-chip will be soft enough, but I'll try s-video and even composite on it as well to be sure.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:28 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
Went back through some comb filters over this last week. They were all disappointing. I knew that, but I figured I'd revisit them.

Also got to try a Mitsubishi S-VHS. It was definitely sharp, but there was way too much dot crawl. I've never seen that much dot crawl before.

I have an adjustable comb filter as well. Don't bother with the ones that don't have a frame buffer. This one is lag free, but it introduces artifacts that are more annoying than the original rainbows or dot crawl. Then again, the good ones add lag, so I wouldn't bother with those, either.

Just use an XRGB-1 or 2 and deal with some dot crawl and rainbows.

Also, chaining the XRGB through a video processor (DVDO or Calibre) afterwards while using OSSC linex5 helped a little. I might take a look at the Barco Athena machine and see if it has better noise reduction.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 1223
What do the XRGB 1/2 units do to get rid of dot crawl?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
andykara2003 wrote:
What do the XRGB 1/2 units do to get rid of dot crawl?


I guarantee if you saw the output from this Mitsubishi, you'd feel a whole lot better about the XRGB machine. :)

And, if you're super concerned about it, I'd refer you back to Silicon Optix Image Anyplace (IA-100). I think that had a decent comb filter. Not very fast, but no Faroudja will be. Still not going to get rid of rainbows or dot crawl entirely.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:18 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
Since we are all starting to hook up our new Koryuu boxes, does anybody out there have any impressions or screen grabs of the Retrotink 2x composite input after the firmware update?

I've heard the changes made a difference and composite input was improved. I owned and sold a "launch" unit and the comb filter performance was a definite weak spot.

Did anyone try it out?
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:09 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Arizona, US
Been awhile so I'm curious to see if there is any updates. Using a RGB/Component to Composite encoder still seems like it will give the best results at reducing dot crawl. Are these what I need?

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5028478 ... 6f92bmw1WR
_________________
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:11 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 207
I'm curious as to why you wouldn't just use stock composite if the original authentic look is what you're going for? If the idea is that composite was the intended look, wouldn't the specific quirks and flaws of the original video encoders be part of that?

It's not like Miyamoto was designing Super Mario Bros. with an ADV7842 either.


Last edited by ross on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:43 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Arizona, US
By authentic I mean how I remember it. All of the previous tv's I've had must of had really good comb filters because I don't remember dot crawl being a major issue.
_________________
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:21 pm 



Joined: 23 Sep 2020
Posts: 28
austin532 wrote:
Most games from that era benefit from composite blending and give that authentic and intended look but their are some non dithering games...


I'm not at all convinced by this argument that the use of dithering implied that composite video was intended. Plenty of arcade games used dithering, plenty of PC games used it, and both of those would involve sharp RGB signals. Plus I remember the lowercase W in Sword of Vermilion turning into a single rainbow smudge on my 3/4 Genesis 2.

Will composite make it look how you remember? Sure. Will it make it look how the developers intended? Maybe, if they had the same revision console as you, and they didn't just make the graphics look good on their PC monitors (the too-wide circles in many SNES games come to mind).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 4236
Location: Québec City
austin532 wrote:
By authentic I mean how I remember it. All of the previous tv's I've had must of had really good comb filters because I don't remember dot crawl being a major issue.

Actually I think it would have been the opposite.

a really good TV set will give you a real good look at the dot crawl, IME.

no offense

I could be wrong though. but I've never seen a sharp crt that eliminates the NES' dot crawl.
_________________
-FM Synth & Black Metal-


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 840
Location: Arizona, US
Sony FV300 tv's do a great job hiding the dot crawl. Sure it's still there but it's far less noticeable.
_________________
Framemeister 240p scanline settings: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33450&start=9600


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
If we support the OSSC Pro platform, there will probably be an open source solution to this in the (not so) distant future--and all the processing will share the same frame buffer.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:54 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 529
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Extron YCS 100 isn’t too shabby - has a TBC in addition to the comb filtering.

Very rare, but the Kramer FC-10DXL looks good!

Crystal Vision VPS-1 and Faroudja VS50 also are supposed to be awesome
_________________
For CRTs, A/V gear, video games & more, be sure to check out my eBay!

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Looking for a good comb filter
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:27 am 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1904
I've tried a couple of those.

I was unimpressed with the Extron YCS 100 for both games and video. The CD 400 looks better with games, but it stinks for video.

The Kramer FC-10DXL doesn't handle 240p properly and the comb filter was no better than the Extron, IMHO.

Didn't like them.

Although, honestly, I can't think of any machines either Kramer or Extron engineered that had great comb filters. Kramer sells some rebranded gear (Extron engineers do everything in house), so the results with some "Kramer" stuff could vary. Although, I wouldn't expect much from the TVOne or Calibre products Kramer sells (in terms of comb filter quality).

For video, most people will want to get an old Pioneer DVD recorder. For games, the Koryuu strikes a nice balance without lag.

I'd recommend getting those or waiting for the OSSC Pro firmware to grow.
_________________
We apologise for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jon Nielsen, Lee, NormalFish and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group