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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:38 pm 


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Yes, and that's exactly what we're discussing, Panasonic's OLED technology is not even good enough to make regular OLED panels, so the idea that they could build the much more difficult transparent panels is a bit much.

Panasonic certainly is working on dual-layer LCDs, and the technology is promising, at least in terms of contrast ratios, but Panasonic is hardly alone in working on it. HiSense also has two dual-layer TVs coming to market at the same time, using a 960x1080 backlight LCD layer to provide one million local dimming zones. This is far less than the full 4K backlight layer that Panasonic MegaCon is usinG (what a terrible name, that), but I'd imagine HiSense's approach will be dramatically cheaper, and as such will make it into far more homes. Especially since HiSense is a budget Chinese brand, and consumers may wonder why they should pay for Panasonic's display if they can get HiSense's almost-as-good solution for much cheaper, or LG's OLEDs for a bit more expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:41 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Still, if they can make the image decent and the display transparent enough when not in use, maybe these are the bedroom and living room windows of the future. It would be a great space saver. I'd put a TV in my kitchen window and glass shower partition.


I would be concerned about what UV is doing to the tech with the sun beating on it everyday.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 am 


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Just been announced a l that LG 9 series of OLEDs are now going to be Gsync compatible. Glad I just picked up 77c9 last week.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:59 am 


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LG's press release: http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2019/09/lg-un ... xperience/

nVidia's press release: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/ne ... en-gaming/

The TVs will only support g-sync on nVidia's Turing cards, so the 1600 and 2000 series. What's actually happening is that nVidia is adding HDMI VRR support to Turing cards despite them only being HDMI 2.0 (HDMI VRR was added in the HDMI 2.1 spec), and presumably LG is making some firmware tweaks to allow VRR on HDMI 2.0 connections too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:23 am 


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Waiting on HDMI 2.1 cards, but very glad to see this level of support for VRR so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm 


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I thought VRR support is bandwidth limited at HDMI 2.0 ~18 . Wouldn't there be some kind of resolution trade-off or something?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
I thought VRR support is bandwidth limited at HDMI 2.0 ~18 . Wouldn't there be some kind of resolution trade-off or something?


No. In general, we're just dynamically changing the amount of lines in vblank each frame.
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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:49 pm 


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The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:05 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.



That's OK, neither does most consoles and PCs in 2019. Current consoles can barely manage 4k 60hz (if you're lucky) and only the very top spec PC's can take advantage of higher refresh rates with the res set to 4k. There is practically zero broadcast or streaming services offering higher refresh rates and movies are still 24fps. So it's probably hard to convince LGs execs that it's what a majority of customers want now.

On the other hand, these new TV's seem to incorporate a bunch of features that hardly anyone can take advantage of yet. This "build it and they'll come" approach has not been particularly effective. The majority of content is still 1080p or less and where is all the HDR stuff? Meanwhile, Samsung is already selling 8k tv's like they haven't even noticed that nobody's with them.

As a side note, any 4k display capable of 60hz should have the bandwidth for 1080p 120hz. So, when 8k tv's become the norm, 120hz 4k should be the norm for most TVs too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:26 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Still, if they can make the image decent and the display transparent enough when not in use, maybe these are the bedroom and living room windows of the future. It would be a great space saver. I'd put a TV in my kitchen window and glass shower partition.


I would be concerned about what UV is doing to the tech with the sun beating on it everyday.


Good point. That could be a serious barrier to it being used for exterior windows. Any sort of film I ever left out in the sun got destroyed by it eventually.

The window tint films used on car windows are obviously made with the UV protection to last in the sun but they still fade with time. The adhesive used to attach them is a different story. Heat softens glue and these displays are comprised of multiple layers held in place with a transparent adhesive.

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:19 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


Well, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I assumed this was at the root of current use-case scenarios for the tech. I've seen concepts advertised for the shower door to check the stock market and kitchen use to look at recipes online. That kind of stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:40 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.



That's OK, neither does most consoles and PCs in 2019. Current consoles can barely manage 4k 60hz (if you're lucky) and only the very top spec PC's can take advantage of higher refresh rates with the res set to 4k. There is practically zero broadcast or streaming services offering higher refresh rates and movies are still 24fps. So it's probably hard to convince LGs execs that it's what a majority of customers want now.

On the other hand, these new TV's seem to incorporate a bunch of features that hardly anyone can take advantage of yet. This "build it and they'll come" approach has not been particularly effective. The majority of content is still 1080p or less and where is all the HDR stuff? Meanwhile, Samsung is already selling 8k tv's like they haven't even noticed that nobody's with them.

As a side note, any 4k display capable of 60hz should have the bandwidth for 1080p 120hz. So, when 8k tv's become the norm, 120hz 4k should be the norm for most TVs too.


Everyone is kind of assuming with a wait and see attitude that the 2019 LG's will fully support HDMI 2.1 once devices outputting it start coming out.

A number of older games can definitely run at 4K 120Hz without the absolute high-end GPUs, or settings can be turned down and resolution slightly lowered to further increase the frame rate. Combined with VRR, you can hit 90 FPS and still see an appreciable difference.

No need to count your chickens before they hatch of course- I want to see an actual reviewer confirm that an HDMI 2.1 GPU works fine with a 2019 LG with all of the expected features before I'd plan to buy either. But 4K 120Hz is useful today with some tweaking (and still a not insignificant investment, but that's PC gaming for you).


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:20 am 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


Well, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I assumed this was at the root of current use-case scenarios for the tech. I've seen concepts advertised for the shower door to check the stock market and kitchen use to look at recipes online. That kind of stuff.


I've seen transparent lcd screens and clear projector screens advertised for years (in my digital signage business) but I have never seen a major outdoor facing implementation. It's one of those things people see as cool but ultimately impracticable.

The obvious potential use is window advertising but the reality is that clear screens are somewhere between hard and impossible to see in direct sunlight. So who would really buy one? They make even less sense for shop windows if they need to switch to opaque to use them.

Pitching it as a lifestyle piece is probably the only way they'd be able to sell them at the silly high prices they'll no doubt want. "it doesn't have to have a practical application or make sense, interior designers will mount them at the end of rich people's beds".

It's certainly not the first time someone has tried to sell clear TV screens. This image is well over 10 years old:

Image

I've still never met anyone who uses one at home or at work though. I'm not sure using Oled tech changes it's real world desirability. We didn't buy clear lcd or projection TVs because they seem like a novelty product.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:13 pm 


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Sony is launching sales of their microled TVs. 4K at the low, low starting price of only $720,000!

But don't worry, you can get a 1080p TV for only 180 thousand.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14883/so ... -consumers


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:22 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Sony is launching sales of their microled TVs. 4K at the low, low starting price of only $720,000!


I suppose the hope is that they manage to get the size and price to a reasonable level. It could be that Sony's lack of showing in the OLED consumer market is due to a corporate preference for the micro led tech in the long run. There are certainly advantages if they can properly mature the process technology.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:22 pm 


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Samsung has already demonstrated a 75" 4K prototype, so they've already got the size down to consumer levels. They just need to work on getting the manufacturing process down to consumer-level pricing.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:31 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Samsung has already demonstrated a 75" 4K prototype, so they've already got the size down to consumer levels. They just need to work on getting the manufacturing process down to consumer-level pricing.


Yeah, I was just gonna say that I thought Samsung were the furthest along with consumer micro-led. Sony seemed to have pulled out of the TV manufacturing business. Their current TVs are made with other companies panels. I wasn't even aware they were working on new consumer display tech until I saw this:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14883/so ... -consumers

I see no issue with a new display tech starting in larger sizes to replace traditional projector based home theaters. Smaller sizes are already well taken care of with Oled. But... a minimum of 220" for a 4k set makes it unlikely that it will go in anyone's house. Even if you had 9 foot ceilings you'd struggle to fit a TV that large. My 110" screen filled 7/8 of my living room wall (floor to ceiling).

The pricing too makes it hard to take seriously. I don't know how rich you'd have to be to invest $720,000 on a new TV but I suspect the market is hyper-limited. If they sell any, it will probably be large commercial installations like the outdoor digital signage already done with regular led panels. Maybe Goldman Sachs will install one in their lobby to show important stuff like the news....


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:07 pm 


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That much is okay for private millionaires, and pocket money to billionaires, and there's never been more in history.

Though I imagine they're more interested in actual theatres with the highest quality projection.

Filthy rich people don't give a damn about TV or video games anyway (well their kids maybe, just a little while)
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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:24 am 


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Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:47 am 



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Guspaz wrote:
Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.

My understanding is that, yes, they can call it that, because it's still smaller than your typical LED; presumably a similarly-structured display using what's widely-available now would be even larger. It's not like they're only using a handful to backlight an LCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:10 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.


There is definitely not the clear water between existing fine pitch led signage and Sony's micro-led tv's that you'd expect. Pitches have been getting finer on led panels for years and the current crop is already sufficiently fine that you can't tell if it's an led pitch or a large LCD from a reasonable distance.

The problem is that people get a lot closer to the screen in their homes. While micro-led will offer superior contrast to any existing projection tech, we don't really know how far you need to be from the screen to not see individual pixels and the gaps between panels.
At 220", the pixel density is not that great even with a 4k image.

Perhaps the more worrying aspect for Sony is that Samsung have already demonstrated a 140" 4k micro-led. And it's similarly modular so it can match any size needed and with greater pixel density. You have to wonder if Sony are a day late and a dollar short... again..


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:24 pm 



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I just read up on Samsung's 2019 micro-led demo of their 75" 4k version. If you believe everything that is said, they also have some crazy ideas on pricing:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/6/18168 ... y-ces-2019

They only want $100,000 for their 219" model (which makes Sony's pricing seem even more insane). Given the modular nature of these things, the assumption is that the 75" will cost "tens of thousands of dollars". Given that I just spent less than $4000 to put a 77" Oled in my living room, Samsung's micro-led would literally have to blow Oled out the water to attract that kind of cash.

This "same great blacks but with higher brightness" pitch won't cut it. Micro-led might well be brighter but Oled is already capable of greater brightness than my eyes can tolerate. Nobody looks at my TV and says "that's a bit dim". Any extra brightness would only be of help with outdoor advertising. Samsung claims that burn in will not be an issue but, LG claims the same about Oled. So, we'll see.

I really hope one of them figures out how to make micro-led tv's at sensible prices. We need the competition to make sure we can afford one of LG's larger rollable Oleds and I really want a micro-led TV made of modular 480 line panels so it can double as an awesome vintage gaming monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:43 pm 


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Higher peak brightness would result in better HDR than OLEDs for sure.

No one in their right mind would run SDR content at 1000nits. That the TV can support much higher brightness is not the same as it should increase the average picture brightness at all, the higher limit should only be used for the absolute brightest points in a HDR signal, and nothing else. This is where current TVs fall short and they either clip the brightness resulting in lost information, or they dim the overall image to preserve information, none of which are ideal.

HDR on my OLED is nice and the inky blacks certainly helps a lot here, but higher peak brightness in HDR would be neat.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:26 pm 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
Higher peak brightness would result in better HDR than OLEDs for sure.

No one in their right mind would run SDR content at 1000nits. That the TV can support much higher brightness is not the same as it should increase the average picture brightness at all, the higher limit should only be used for the absolute brightest points in a HDR signal, and nothing else. This is where current TVs fall short and they either clip the brightness resulting in lost information, or they dim the overall image to preserve information, none of which are ideal.

HDR on my OLED is nice and the inky blacks certainly helps a lot here, but higher peak brightness in HDR would be neat.


Marketers (especially of new tech) routinely stretch the truth and lie. In other words, the stated benefits of micro-led are currently just theoretical. Sure, Samsung and Sony claim it will be an Oled killer but... they kinda have to say that.

This "we got invited to see a movie on (Sony's) micro-led" article is the closest I have seen to hands on experience from people outside the manufacturer:

https://www.techhive.com/article/342963 ... ology.html

Reading their conclusions, it could just as easily sound like current micro-led prototypes are inferior to current Oled. E.g. Sony claim peak contrast of 1,000,000:1 but the article says they measured "just" 100,000:1 and that was with Sony's specially made (for the demo) HDR content. The first consumer LG Oled TV review measured 357,000:1 (with regular content).

While they talk about very high potential peak brightness, they reach a fraction of this for the HDR movie. No claims are made about higher average brightness during regular or HDR content so we can only make assumptions.

The part that didn't smell right to me was that Sony created a special HDR DCI 48fps version of their demo movie. Even then, with "advanced interpolation techniques", the writer claims to see visible judder. it occurred to me that we know very little about pixel response time on this tech or what sort of motion resolution we might expect. We just don't have enough info to say what might look better.

I can't blame Sony for wanting to put their best foot forward (with content selection) but, if you want to prove a display's superiority over all others, you'd also want to show performance with regular content. I.e. Content we, the people, have access to. Most of us have Zero access to 4096 x 2160 DCI theater HDR 48fps content. If it really looks noticeably better, show me something on Netflix, a PS4 game and a regular 3840 x 2160 Blu Ray movie.

Also, the logic they use (in the various articles) for why micro-led won't burn in is erroneous. I.e. Because the phosphor is not organic, it won't degrade over time. This is pure BS. There is no eternal light source anywhere on earth (man-made or organic) and none that won't dull eventually.

It is also worth mentioning that the limited data we currently have is hardly "like for like". If we wanted to state the highest potential peak brightness for Oled tech, would we want to use current consumer production models designed for longevity and energy economy, or the no compromise $750,000 prototype that only needs to last one day?

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough either way. I just find it very odd that a tech writer would go see a movie demo on a micro-led TV, write about it and fail to make any Oled comparisons at all. What else could possibly be more important to the display enthusiast than that... If a new $750,000 TV comes out, first question: Is it better than the current best displays available???


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:52 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
While they talk about very high potential peak brightness, they reach a fraction of this for the HDR movie. No claims are made about higher average brightness during regular or HDR content so we can only make assumptions.


Movies are usually mastered for 1000 or 4000 nits. If your display cannot match that it will have to compromise either by clipping whites above its max brightness or dim the image to preserve detail within its maximum peak brightness. So higher peak brightness is obviously better suited for this as less adjustments would have to be made to fit the HDR meta data to the display.

I get the feeling that you think that higher peak brightness means that the whole image is drastically brighter on a calibrated set? This is not the case as the majority of the image even in HDR is FAR below these numbers. The 4000 nits for example would pretty much exclusively be used when looking directly at the sun or similar super bright light sources. It's meant for short burst of very impactful light but not for prolonged sessions as that would be tiring for your eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:20 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
The 4000 nits for example would pretty much exclusively be used when looking directly at the sun or similar super bright light sources. It's meant for short burst of very impactful light but not for prolonged sessions as that would be tiring for your eyes.


I assume that the testing methods are supposed to take that into account? The source content chosen obviously has to contain some moment of high brightness and they have to capture the whole thing. Curious about how they do those tests.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:11 pm 


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I'm not sure what testing you are referring to?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:00 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
4000 nits.

Someday we'll need Sunblock 5000 just to watch TV.
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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:35 am 



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vol.2 wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:
The 4000 nits for example would pretty much exclusively be used when looking directly at the sun or similar super bright light sources. It's meant for short burst of very impactful light but not for prolonged sessions as that would be tiring for your eyes.


I assume that the testing methods are supposed to take that into account? The source content chosen obviously has to contain some moment of high brightness and they have to capture the whole thing. Curious about how they do those tests.


It depends who's measuring and what they are trying to prove. Manufacturers, with the goal of saying mine is better than his, routinely use the max possible spec even if it has no relevance for normal viewing like "peak brightness". You can't (or at least shouldn't) use their specs for anything.

For years reputable reviewers have been trying to come up with a meaningful quality measure. The closest they have come, in terms of specs to compare image quality are "motion resolution". It ultimately comes down to how much detail you can see in regular moving content. It doesn't tell you everything but that and dynamic contrast are at least useful for narrowing down a search.

Manufacturers don't state motion resolution specs on the Best Buy shelf label for a reason. Their cheaper poor quality tv's (that most people buy) don't score well. It pisses all over their marketing story which is that you should upgrade to their latest 4k or 8k high brightness tv's for a superior and more detail image.

I am always a little surprised when people still use manufacturers specs. I guess we're wired to think bigger is better and draw simplistic conclusions like more dots or higher brightness = a better TV. It's easier to process than the truth which is that it's way more complicated than any one spec. Some of the best TV's ever made have similar or identical-looking specs to the entry level models of their generation.

Why do people hang on to their 1080p Pioneer Elite Kuro plasma tvs when brighter 4k HDR sets are available? Because they produce a more vibrant and detailed image than any current 4k or 8k TV except Oled (and some think they beat Oled tvs too). You can't see it on paper but it's plain as day when you turn one on.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:29 am 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
While they talk about very high potential peak brightness, they reach a fraction of this for the HDR movie. No claims are made about higher average brightness during regular or HDR content so we can only make assumptions.


Movies are usually mastered for 1000 or 4000 nits. If your display cannot match that it will have to compromise either by clipping whites above its max brightness or dim the image to preserve detail within its maximum peak brightness. So higher peak brightness is obviously better suited for this as less adjustments would have to be made to fit the HDR meta data to the display.

I get the feeling that you think that higher peak brightness means that the whole image is drastically brighter on a calibrated set? This is not the case as the majority of the image even in HDR is FAR below these numbers. The 4000 nits for example would pretty much exclusively be used when looking directly at the sun or similar super bright light sources. It's meant for short burst of very impactful light but not for prolonged sessions as that would be tiring for your eyes.


I don't. I fully understand the difference between peak and average brightness and the type of content where you would see both. I just don't share the confidence that the higher potential brightness of micro-led will result in a superior image to Oled. It's never that simple.

If the tech is capable of higher average brightness without sacrificing black levels, it is not apparent on Sony's prototype. If it were, you would expect to see higher contrast (than Oled), especially on specially made HDR content, but, it was nowhere near. Ultimately contrast is what matters. Not brightness or even black levels in isolation of each other.

While it was just a prototype, it was a particularly large, corse pitch example. One of the problems with the tech is that the micro-led "bulbs" suffer reduced light output as they get smaller (apparently). The 4k one demoed was 16.5 feet x 9 feet and cost $750,000... So it's too early to even guess what sort of performance we might expect on the $3000 60" consumer models.

In terms of the brightness used for movie mastering, most of the current mastering reference monitors I have seen are Oled. I am fairly certain that the reference monitors they use are more than capable of displaying optimal brightness.... An editor could not use a monitor for reference if it wasn't capable of displaying all the detail they wished to show in the final product.


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