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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:06 pm 


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werk91 wrote:
What is a neat and affordable solution to deinterlace PS2's 480i output to use on a PVM? It doesn't matter if through RGB Scart or component. The flicker on mine is more annoying than on a consumer CRT as expected. I've seen the Extron VSC 700 mentioned as it has filter options, and also straight up upscaling 480i to 480p. Anything simpler that I might be missing?


In addition to the other comments, remember that most PS2 games are already implementing a flicker filter. Fantasy Zone Collection lets you toggle the flicker filter on and off, if you want to see the difference. The SNES 240p Test Suite 480i mode also doesn't perform any flicker filtering.

If you go the PS2 480p to Extron scan converter route, the VSC 500 and 700 use the same scan conversion engine and essentially the same hardware. The results are identical. So, get the cheapest one you can find. (You will have to force 480p output from the console for it to work. You're also adding about a frame of latency with the VSC.)

Keep in mind that more flicker filtering means less fine detail--and vice versa. It's a trade-off.

One last thing: it's entirely possible you won't manage to find a balance that satisfies you. Because, most PS2 games are already rendered with flicker filtering baked in.

--------

If your display supports 480p, force 480p directly from the console and go directly to the monitor. No deinterlacing required. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:18 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
If your display supports 480p, force 480p directly from the console and go directly to the monitor. No deinterlacing required. :)


I thought that using something like GSM to force the PS2 into 480p mode (for 480i-only games) still has a bunch of huge faults, games freezing, no videos of certain types, and not even rom/ISO hacks can help with a lot of this. Has there been some huge changes lately? This is what's always stopped me from even trying GSM on my hacked PS2's.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:07 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
orange808 wrote:
If your display supports 480p, force 480p directly from the console and go directly to the monitor. No deinterlacing required. :)


I thought that using something like GSM to force the PS2 into 480p mode (for 480i-only games) still has a bunch of huge faults, games freezing, no videos of certain types, and not even rom/ISO hacks can help with a lot of this. Has there been some huge changes lately? This is what's always stopped me from even trying GSM on my hacked PS2's.

Since interlacing sucks to deal with on the console end, does it make more sense to focus on dealing with it on the display end? Can 480i be made to look decent without adding lag by using something like rolling scan?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:17 pm 


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My PVM is JVC DT-V1910 and sure it can support 480p fine but I'm also not overly keen on the patchy support that something like GSM offers... Was more looking for a hardware solution that works for everything, kinda like running the PS2 through FM or another processor with good deinterlacing method but then connecting the result to the PVM rather than a modern display. Guess I will try sitting back as much as I can but the gaming room is pretty small so not much can be done. I could try playing without my prescription glasses too maybe. They're for displays and reading mainly but I can watch TV without them for few hours without issues. I wish they developed the PS2 hardware with 480p in mind like the Dreamcast is with the right cables :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:51 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Since interlacing sucks to deal with on the console end, does it make more sense to focus on dealing with it on the display end? Can 480i be made to look decent without adding lag by using something like rolling scan?


All CRT monitors/televisions/displays use rolling scan by definition.

For werk, you could possibly use an OSSC or retrotink to do a bob-deinterlace (which adds no lag), which will draw scanlines at 60hz rather than the 30hz per scanline that 480i produces. There is still a sort of flicker/jitter for stuff that differs between fields, but it's not the same sort of flicker-to-black that you get on a 480i signal. To get it back into the TV, you'd need either a DAC, or an HDMI-to-SDI converter, if you've got one of the SDI input boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:10 pm 


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If you are okay with losing half your vertical scanlines, you might also consider an iScan HD+ outputting 240p. A professional monitor shouldn't have any trouble with the timings from that one. It will add more lag than the OSSC, but the results won't flicker about.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:12 pm 



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Perhaps this does deserve it's own thread, but I was hoping I could get pointed in the right direction in this thread:

How do I achieve the best visual results for my N64 on my 2019 LG C9 TV? I am talking mods, scalers, line doublers, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:15 pm 


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The best, at any cost? UltraHDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:35 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
The best, at any cost? UltraHDMI.


The kit... I hear it's being revised?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:35 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
To get it back into the TV, you'd need either a DAC, or an HDMI-to-SDI converter, if you've got one of the SDI input boards.


Or use an HDMI-to-VGA converter instead, and use a sync combiner to get RGBS or RGsB into the monitor. This is strictly better than the SDI route since those SDI input cards add lag and only do 4:2:2 video.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:42 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
To get it back into the TV, you'd need either a DAC, or an HDMI-to-SDI converter, if you've got one of the SDI input boards.


Or use an HDMI-to-VGA converter instead, and use a sync combiner to get RGBS or RGsB into the monitor. This is strictly better than the SDI route since those SDI input cards add lag and only do 4:2:2 video.


On a CRT monitor, you're probably not going to notice 4:2:2.

Either way is fine.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:09 am 


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werk91 wrote:
vol.2, have you tried if the jitter filter on the Extron reduces flicker?


Yes. I find that the best settings for the three filters offered by the extron help with the image quality on my PVM in general. It's still got a bit of flicker, but I'm not sensitive to it. The filters clean up the image more than anything and make it look sharper. You'll have to play around with the each one to find the sweet spot. There 3 setting I believe to each of them, and I don't have any of them maxxed out.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:17 am 



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orange808 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
To get it back into the TV, you'd need either a DAC, or an HDMI-to-SDI converter, if you've got one of the SDI input boards.


Or use an HDMI-to-VGA converter instead, and use a sync combiner to get RGBS or RGsB into the monitor. This is strictly better than the SDI route since those SDI input cards add lag and only do 4:2:2 video.


On a CRT monitor, you're probably not going to notice 4:2:2.

Either way is fine.


Well I guess another advantage is not having to hear the stupidly loud fan on the SDI cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:04 am 



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Windfish wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
The best, at any cost? UltraHDMI.


The kit... I hear it's being revised?

I hope so. For being the best option, it still has its flaws; it still produces mad interlacing artifacts for interlaced content, with no good deinterlacing option, and I still don't like having to cut the bottom shell to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:40 am 


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There's been a nocut mod for it since last year, though.

Not much to be done about the UltraHDMI only supporting weave deinterlacing, other than to point out that only a handful of games used 480i full-time, and a bunch of those have framerate issues with 480i that make them best played at 240p anyhow. Still, it doesn't really make sense that bob deinterlacing and 480i passthrough aren't options. At least in the latter case the user could let their TV's normally much higher quality deinterlacer have at it, at the expense of a few frames of extra lag.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:28 am 


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Thanks a lot for your help everyone, I guess the easiest (and cheapest) approach for me would be to use RetroTINK + one of those Portta HDMI to Component converters and that would result in flicker free 480p component signal from the PS2 that I can feed into the PVM. I'm estimating something like ~130£ which is definitely pricey but for that much I can't even get any of the other solutions like the Extrons or an OSSC though. Certainly something to consider since the PS2 is not one of my most used systems, I have had it for longest time after all. But I have an easily obtainable set of hardware that can improve the experience if I decide to go with it and that's always a good thing :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:54 am 


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The only downside to the Retrotink is that it won't pass native 480p, so you can't utilize true 480p from the PS2 without recabling your setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:11 am 


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That's a shame! I thought it had some passthrough mode available... In any case I've only ever used progressive scan on PS2 for.... Tekken 5 and Outrun 2006 :lol:. Keep forgetting to try Gradius V with that GSM disc.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:48 pm 


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werk91 wrote:
That's a shame! I thought it had some passthrough mode available...


For what it's worth, I think most of the true 480i games look better as they were intended, from more than just the PS2. Forcing progressive lends a softer look to the image that I'm not a huge fan of. Prime example of this for me with PS2 is Final Fantasy XII. It just looks fantastic in 480i on a PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:24 pm 



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How does the NEC XM29 achieve 480p through component cables? imagining if the bnc ports are reserved for 15khz signals, can the component cables be converted to plug into the dsub port under rgb1? does a route like that cause degradation or input lag?

I could not find any videos about it. people usually just talk about 15khz signals on it, or using dreamcast through vga on the rgb1 input.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:29 pm 


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Why would the component inputs be limited to 15 kHz? Component video typically goes up to 720p/1080i (45 kHz for 720p). The BNC inputs support VGA input too, since they have the five plugs for RGBHV.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Why would the component inputs be limited to 15 kHz? Component video typically goes up to 720p/1080i (45 kHz for 720p). The BNC inputs support VGA input too, since they have the five plugs for RGBHV.

my bad I guess i was not clear. if i use the bnc rgb station for 240p consoles, that leaves the rgb1 (dsub) station open, which ideally i would use for 480p content. how would i be able to convert component to use on that without any quality loss/lag?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:45 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
There's been a nocut mod for it since last year, though.

Yes, that that requires you to either cut a section out of the lower EM shield (undermining the point of a no-cut mod) or remove it entirely, and I'm not a fan of either approach. My point is that the UltraHDMI could have been designed in a way that utilized a no-cut, 3D-printed AV shroud while leaving the lower EM shield in place.

Guspaz wrote:
Not much to be done about the UltraHDMI only supporting weave deinterlacing, other than to point out that only a handful of games used 480i full-time, and a bunch of those have framerate issues with 480i that make them best played at 240p anyhow. Still, it doesn't really make sense that bob deinterlacing and 480i passthrough aren't options. At least in the latter case the user could let their TV's normally much higher quality deinterlacer have at it, at the expense of a few frames of extra lag.

I believe you can get 240p/480i out of the UltraHDMI if you enable Direct mode, but that wouldn't eliminate the HDMI blackouts, which would make anything with frequent mode switches (like RE2) a pain to play; and bob deinterlacing support wouldn't really make a difference, because that's all my current TV (Samsung LN32B360) will do when it's in game mode, and I think I'd rather have interlacing artifacts than vertical flicker.

Guspaz wrote:
Why would the component inputs be limited to 15 kHz? Component video typically goes up to 720p/1080i (45 kHz for 720p). The BNC inputs support VGA input too, since they have the five plugs for RGBHV.

I'm not sure about the XM27/29, but there are a lot of CRTs in the US that have 15kHz-only YPbPr component inputs; someone with a history limited to those displays might reasonably assume that the NEC CRTs have a similar limitation.

(Also, I believe YPbPr component maxes out at 1080p; the PS3 and Xbox 360 are capable of 1080p over YPbPr, but I don't think support for it is universal; I think a lot of TVs will max out at 1080i for component.)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:50 pm 


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MidOrFeed2015 wrote:
my bad I guess i was not clear. if i use the bnc rgb station for 240p consoles, that leaves the rgb1 (dsub) station open, which ideally i would use for 480p content. how would i be able to convert component to use on that without any quality loss/lag?


+1

I don't know of an easy solution. Maybe someone else does?

-------------

If you're willing to do some modification work, Guspaz posted a way to make Garo work. Link here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61472&hilit=Garo

However, the Garo isn't shipped as a "plug and play" properly functioning product. I modded my Garo, but it's silly that we can't buy a plug and play solution for this in the 21st century.

------------

There's also the Extron CVC units. Those seem to be popular.

Those have a little wheel on them to configure the output--and **You Can't Turn It With Your Fingers!** :) I had to constantly grab a little screwdriver and monkey with that little wheel (gently or else you'll strip it out!) when I changed signals (resolutions). It got annoying very fast.
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Last edited by orange808 on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:51 pm 


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The EM shield is useless, and can always be re-installed later, so I'm not sure why removing it is a problem...

Those CRTs are not limited to 15 kHz on their YPbPr inputs, they're limited to 15 kHz on their tubes, and have YPbPr inputs. The XM29 is not a 15 kHz display.

The solution to the problem seems to be, 240p RGB consoles into the d-sub input, 480p component consoles into the BNC inputs.


Last edited by Guspaz on Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:54 pm 


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I just hate that manufacturers and the movie studios (Sony is both) decided to artificially limit component inputs to 720p/1080i.

Bastards.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:35 pm 


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Actually, before that, be sure the monitor supports YPbPr to begin with, as far as I can tell, the XM29 and XM29/XP29 Plus don't support YPbPr at all, while the Xtra models do. My guess (unconfirmed) is that the breakdown looks like this:

XM29: No
XM29 Plus: No
XM29 Xtra: Yes
XP29 Plus: No
XP29 Xtra: Yes


Last edited by Guspaz on Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:13 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Actually, before that, be sure the monitor supports YPbPr to begin with, as far as I can tell, the XM29 and XM29 Plus don't support YPbPr at all, while the XP29 and XM29 Xtra do. My guess (unconfirmed) is that the breakdown looks like this:

XM29: No
XM29 Plus: No
XM29 Xtra: Yes
XP29 Plus: Yes
XP29 Xtra: Yes

so 640x480 is supported by the xm29 plus, but not 480p through ypbpr?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:25 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I modded my Garo, but it's silly that we can't buy a plug and play solution for this in the 21st century.


I wish there was a way to modify my Toro to accept something else through the Dreamcast pin connector. Ever since RA released their DC SCART cable, the Toro just collects dust...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:44 pm 



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ldeveraux wrote:
orange808 wrote:
I modded my Garo, but it's silly that we can't buy a plug and play solution for this in the 21st century.


I wish there was a way to modify my Toro to accept something else through the Dreamcast pin connector. Ever since RA released their DC SCART cable, the Toro just collects dust...

I know that BeharBros at least used to offer a DE-15 dongle; I thought that was the whole point of the removable dongles. You should be able to get a 2x5 pin connector (I'm not sure what pitch) and then wire that to anything to use it as a sync combiner and/or sync separator; a female DE-15, 4 or 5 RCA or BNC connectors, connectors for other RGB-capable consoles.

What I don't know is what bandwidth capability the Toro has; as far as I know, it could max out at 480p, since it's being marketed primarily as a product for the Dreamcast, but I'm not aware of anyone testing it with higher-bandwidth video modes. That should make it capable of serving at least anything that outputs SD or ED RGB, including old DOS PCs.


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