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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:27 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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nmalinoski wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.

Do you know for sure that they can accept a DTV 480p signal, and not just VGA 640x480?


I do not know, but if the DC works through a plain VGA cable, I would assume the signal itself (but perhaps not the levels of that signal) from the DC + Toro would be the same resolution still, right? So if it works on one but not the other it can take that resolution signal, but (guessing here) it just doesn't like the Toro.

And since it likewise doesn't like the Wii through the Garo (and the same company makes Toro too), but works fine on the Wii with the Mayflash VGA adapter, then I'm again assuming it's the Behar bros products being the culprit which is why I was wondering about the voltage levels from the Behar devices.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:10 am 



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I picked up a VP30 which I’ve hooked up to a 480p plasma TV via a HDMI to DVI cable but I can’t seem to dial in the same 1:1 output with 480p sources that I can using my Extron 301 HD or Crestron HD Scaler. Does anyone know if it’s possible to get a 1:1 image with 480p sources? I’ve set the output of the VP30 to the native resolution of the TV and it’s definitely 1:1 on the test patterns, it’s just not displaying the video signal from the source inputs correctly (which my other scalers do perfectly).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:40 pm 


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If you got a chain like this 480p source > VP30 without processing/scaling > VP30 output > 480p screen, then you're still dealing with a color resolution reduction to 4:2:2, when is then upsampled again before output. The DVDOs are also never true 1:1 in terms of sharpness.

Overall you can't compare this to an 4:4:4 machine like the Extron. The results won't be anywhere close.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:25 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
If you got a chain like this 480p source > VP30 without processing/scaling > VP30 output > 480p screen, then you're still dealing with a color resolution reduction to 4:2:2, when is then upsampled again before output. The DVDOs are also never true 1:1 in terms of sharpness.

Overall you can't compare this to an 4:4:4 machine like the Extron. The results won't be anywhere close.


Why does the product info say “Configurable for RGB (4:4:4)”? https://cdn-docs.av-iq.com/dataSheet//M ... asheet.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:32 pm 


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because you can set the output to RGB 4:4:4 in order to drive DVI-only displays.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:37 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?


I'm going to answer my own question here, just in case others need the answer: The BeharBros Garo AND Toro do NOT output proper VGA. This is confirmed by them via FB messenger.

I asked if it outputted 5v on the H and V sync lines, per the VGA spec (which is also called TTL level, right?), and they said no. So although their Toro page mentions "VGA" FIVE TIMES, and FOUR mentions of "VGA" on the Garo page....they don't actually output proper VGA. Yet another disappointment from this company...

Anyway, both Behar units worked when routed through an Extron RGB which outputs proper TTV/5v sync on the H and V lines. The CRT monitors we were testing no longer flashed the image off and on (or just not displaying a signal at all even) like it was doing before.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:30 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
because you can set the output to RGB 4:4:4 in order to drive DVI-only displays.


Which is what I have. What am I not understanding?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:33 am 


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strayan wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
because you can set the output to RGB 4:4:4 in order to drive DVI-only displays.


Which is what I have. What am I not understanding?


Just because it's outputting in 4:4:4 does not mean the internal processing is 4:4:4. It is downsampling (losing information) then upsampling at the output stage (repeating information).


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:54 am 


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As I understand it, the DVDO scaling (processing) engine applies 4:2:2 subsampling to everything it touches. You can't configure it. There is no option for full 4:4:4, because the DVDO processing always uses 4:2:2. That's just the way they made it. That's how it works.

So, you feed a full 4:4:4 signal, the DVDO applies 4:2:2, the DVDO does it's work, and the DVDO relabels the 4:2:2 processed signal as "4:4:4" for convenience.

The chroma subsampling "damaged" the signal when the DVDO processed the signal. You can't undo it. :(
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:29 am 



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orange808 wrote:
As I understand it, the DVDO scaling (processing) engine applies 4:2:2 subsampling to everything it touches. You can't configure it. There is no option for full 4:4:4, because the DVDO processing always uses 4:2:2. That's just the way they made it. That's how it works.

So, you feed a full 4:4:4 signal, the DVDO applies 4:2:2, the DVDO does it's work, and the DVDO relabels the 4:2:2 processed signal as "4:4:4" for convenience.

The chroma subsampling "damaged" the signal when the DVDO processed the signal. You can't undo it. :(


Is the same true with VP50 PRO?

Are there any scalers with multiple HDMI inputs that leave the 4:4:4 signal intact and have user configurable output resolutions?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:00 am 


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strayan wrote:
Is the same true with VP50 PRO?


Yes.

strayan wrote:
Are there any scalers with multiple HDMI inputs that leave the 4:4:4 signal intact and have user configurable output resolutions?


Yes. There are a few, but couldn't you just chain an HDMI switch before an inexpensive unit and get the same result?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:16 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?


I'm going to answer my own question here, just in case others need the answer: The BeharBros Garo AND Toro do NOT output proper VGA. This is confirmed by them via FB messenger.

I asked if it outputted 5v on the H and V sync lines, per the VGA spec (which is also called TTL level, right?), and they said no. So although their Toro page mentions "VGA" FIVE TIMES, and FOUR mentions of "VGA" on the Garo page....they don't actually output proper VGA. Yet another disappointment from this company...

Anyway, both Behar units worked when routed through an Extron RGB which outputs proper TTV/5v sync on the H and V lines. The CRT monitors we were testing no longer flashed the image off and on (or just not displaying a signal at all even) like it was doing before.


VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.

Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:46 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
strayan wrote:
Is the same true with VP50 PRO?


Yes.

strayan wrote:
Are there any scalers with multiple HDMI inputs that leave the 4:4:4 signal intact and have user configurable output resolutions?


Yes. There are a few, but couldn't you just chain an HDMI switch before an inexpensive unit and get the same result?


Yeah that’s what I do already but it looks pretty messy. Is there a list of these?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:02 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.

Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.

My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:47 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.

Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.

My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?


That's what I always thought as well, and what a couple spec pages on VGA said too (which is hard to find the voltage! they always want to go into the pure video stuff instead in the voltage specs).

I literally think on the Toro, totally educated-guessing here, that they're only able to output 5 volts TOTAL. I say this because when we set the Toro to RGBS through an Extron RGB (which splits the combined sync to H and V with the proper voltage), the image has the proper brightness without tweaking anything on the Extron. When we set the Toro to RGBHV output (where I assume/guess that the voltage might then be ~2.5volts per each of the two lines), the brightness noticeably dropped and was too dark without tweaking on the Extron.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:50 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.

Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.

My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?


That's what I always thought as well, and what a couple spec pages on VGA said too (which is hard to find the voltage! they always want to go into the pure video stuff instead in the voltage specs).

I literally think on the Toro, totally educated-guessing here, that they're only able to output 5 volts TOTAL. I say this because when we set the Toro to RGBS through an Extron RGB (which splits the combined sync to H and V with the proper voltage), the image has the proper brightness without tweaking anything on the Extron. When we set the Toro to RGBHV output (where I assume/guess that the voltage might then be ~2.5volts per each of the two lines), the brightness noticeably dropped and was too dark without tweaking on the Extron.

VGA is in-fact 700mVpp for RGB and 5V TTL (or sometimes 3.3V LVTTL) for syncs

that part about sync voltage affecting brightness and splitting voltage is nonsense though :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:20 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
that part about sync voltage affecting brightness and splitting voltage is nonsense though :wink:


Yeah, I have no clue why it worked that way then. Maybe there's an overall voltage amount the Toro has to use, including the R, G, B (0.7v/each) lines, an it's simply brighter when it only has to run 4 lines for RGBS instead of 5 for RGBHV? Who friggin knows – I'll stop guessing now ;)

All I know is we had 5 different 29" VGA CRT monitors to test so we tried everything we could think of. The only way to get proper brightness out of the Toro + Extron RGB was to put the Toro into RGBS mode. Otherwise (with Toro set to RGBHV) we had to use the Level and Boost dial of the Extron RGB 203 Rxi (which the manual says it can boost the 0.7vp-p up to 1.45vp-p max).

I'm still waiting to hear back from Behar about what the voltage is in both RGBS and RGBHV mode as I'm just curious at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:23 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
that part about sync voltage affecting brightness and splitting voltage is nonsense though :wink:


Yeah, I have no clue why it worked that way then. Maybe there's an overall voltage amount the Toro has to use, including the R, G, B (0.7v/each) lines, an it's simply brighter when it only has to run 4 lines for RGBS instead of 5 for RGBHV? Who friggin knows – I'll stop guessing now ;)

All I know is we had 5 different 29" VGA CRT monitors to test so we tried everything we could think of. The only way to get proper brightness out of the Toro + Extron RGB was to put the Toro into RGBS mode. Otherwise (with Toro set to RGBHV) we had to use the Level and Boost dial of the Extron RGB 203 Rxi (which the manual says it can boost the 0.7vp-p up to 1.45vp-p max).

I'm still waiting to hear back from Behar about what the voltage is in both RGBS and RGBHV mode as I'm just curious at this point.

I don't have a behar box, but AFAIK they don't buffer the RGB at all. So the voltage levels on RGB should be exactly the same as how they come out of the dreamcast. The wildcard here is their scanline implementation. That could be what's dropping your RGB levels maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:14 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
I don't have a behar box, but AFAIK they don't buffer the RGB at all. So the voltage levels on RGB should be exactly the same as how they come out of the dreamcast. The wildcard here is their scanline implementation. That could be what's dropping your RGB levels maybe?

Scanlines were off. Just 480p switch on, and we messed with the RGBS/RGBHV switch.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:25 pm 


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strayan wrote:
Yeah that’s what I do already but it looks pretty messy. Is there a list of these?


Grab one of the Extron IN 180x series. Custom resolutions are handled with custom EDID. Doesn't do 15kHz video, but upscaling should be really nice. The 1804 is reasonably priced for new gear. The older 160x series isn't 4:4:4. No, there isn't a cheap option.

Analog Way and Barco have 4k 4:4:4 presentation switches, but I don't know how well they handle graphics. I doubt either of them allows 240p output. The previous generations of their presentation switches didn't. I couldn't verify that older inexpensive ImagePro or Vio ones are 4:4:4.

The Corio2 machines are all 4:4:4, but they aren't the highest quality machines. Upscaling is tricky and you may not be able to fill the entire screen and get uniform "pixel" size. Of course, they are very flexible with custom output and downscaling 480p to 240p is something they do well. I seriously doubt you want to use this for general purpose upscaling.

Coriomaster is supposed to be 4:4:4, but it doesn't seem to be a fully developed product. It's a stand alone digital signage unit.

I don't know about Crestron stuff. Maybe that's an option. Maybe not. Keep in mind that you need sharp output, but you also need filtering to defeat shimmering. You also want frame lock and low latency.

I understand that RGB Spectrum has some multiviewer units that are 4:4:4, but not all of them. That might work. I don't know. I don't remember which ones are which. I've never tried one.

(I've stayed away from Crestron and RGB Spectrum. Maybe I'll stumble onto a cheap one when I feel motivated enough to test it out.)

-----------

The switch and an inexpensive old Extron VSC 301 HD is still probably your best bet. The Extron VSC 301 HD units are still fairly new, they're very cheap, and I know they have the things gamers want. It works and it's cheap.

If you have enough money to buy the Extron 180x new, you might consider hiring someone to help plan and build your setup properly--and wall fish the cords for a nice clean look.

-------

I still keep the DVDO hooked up. The low latency is worth the trade off sometimes. The deinterlacing is a nice option as well. Looks fine for 720p.

I don't have the Extron 301 hooked up at all. My displays all accept 960p, now. So, I don't need to add a full frame of lag for a marginal image quality advantage when upscaling 720p and the deinterlacing is terrible.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:30 am 



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orange808 wrote:
The switch and an inexpensive old Extron VSC 301 HD is still probably your best bet. The Extron VSC 301 HD units are still fairly new, they're very cheap, and I know they have the things gamers want.

This should be DSC, not VSC.

orange808 wrote:
I don't have the Extron 301 hooked up at all. My displays all accept 960p, now. So, I don't need to add a full frame of lag for a marginal image quality advantage when upscaling 720p and the deinterlacing is terrible.

I keep hearing that the deinterlacing is terrible, and from reputable, knowledgeable members, but I really don't notice any problems with it. Is there a comparison somewhere that demonstrates how bad it supposedly is?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:25 am 


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IIRC the scanlines on the Garo came from shorting the video lines to ground every other scanline? I mean, they have no idea what they're doing, so you probably shouldn't expect anything about their stuff to be in-spec.

Remember how Ste from HD Retrovision designed that Garo RGBS amp/bypass that I installed in mine to fix most of the problems it had? Guess how the beharbros fixed that problem, where they had a ridiculously wrong sync combiner for the RGBS output? They stopped soldering in the SCART connector on shipping units and only advertise it as supporting RGBHV output now!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:30 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
IIRC the scanlines on the Garo came from shorting the video lines to ground every other scanline? I mean, they have no idea what they're doing, so you probably shouldn't expect anything about their stuff to be in-spec.

Remember how Ste from HD Retrovision designed that Garo RGBS amp/bypass that I installed in mine to fix most of the problems it had? Guess how the beharbros fixed that problem, where they had a ridiculously wrong sync combiner for the RGBS output? They stopped soldering in the SCART connector on shipping units and only advertise it as supporting RGBHV output now!


Unfortunately, that's still false advertising.

I have a "version 2" Garo and RGBHV doesn't work right, either.

We need a community solution. Hopefully, a proper EE will address the issue for the community at some point.
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:35 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
I keep hearing that the deinterlacing is terrible, and from reputable, knowledgeable members, but I really don't notice any problems with it. Is there a comparison somewhere that demonstrates how bad it supposedly is?


Shouldn't be too hard to see.

Try the 240p Test Suite Green Hill Zone scroll test. Vary the speed and watch what happens. How blurry does it get? Do you see combing?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:38 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?


Oh, the sync. Yup, my apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:38 pm 


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What is a neat and affordable solution to deinterlace PS2's 480i output to use on a PVM? It doesn't matter if through RGB Scart or component. The flicker on mine is more annoying than on a consumer CRT as expected. I've seen the Extron VSC 700 mentioned as it has filter options, and also straight up upscaling 480i to 480p. Anything simpler that I might be missing?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:06 pm 


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werk91 wrote:
What is a neat and affordable solution to deinterlace PS2's 480i output to use on a PVM? It doesn't matter if through RGB Scart or component. The flicker on mine is more annoying than on a consumer CRT as expected. I've seen the Extron VSC 700 mentioned as it has filter options, and also straight up upscaling 480i to 480p. Anything simpler that I might be missing?


I have a VSC 700, and it outputs at 480i. I use it to downscale HD sources from a VGA signal to my PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:12 pm 


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vol.2, have you tried if the jitter filter on the Extron reduces flicker? I was reading on some YouTube video comment's thread that it helps a lot. I don't mind 480i on a normal CRT, its just some PVMs that flicker quite aggressively in that mode. Ideally I'd like to stay away from deinterlacing since there's no perfect method of doing it from what I've read. Its just that it might be the only option.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:30 pm 


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werk91 wrote:
What is a neat and affordable solution to deinterlace PS2's 480i output to use on a PVM? It doesn't matter if through RGB Scart or component. The flicker on mine is more annoying than on a consumer CRT as expected. I've seen the Extron VSC 700 mentioned as it has filter options, and also straight up upscaling 480i to 480p. Anything simpler that I might be missing?


Do you have an L5-series PVM? They're the only PVMs capable of displaying a de-interlaced signal.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:04 pm 



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werk91 wrote:
vol.2, have you tried if the jitter filter on the Extron reduces flicker? I was reading on some YouTube video comment's thread that it helps a lot. I don't mind 480i on a normal CRT, its just some PVMs that flicker quite aggressively in that mode. Ideally I'd like to stay away from deinterlacing since there's no perfect method of doing it from what I've read. Its just that it might be the only option.


How close do you sit to your PVM? They definitely flicker more than consumer TVs, but a bit of extra distance than what you're used to for progressive images can do wonders.


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