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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:05 pm 


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RE5 is a game that plays drastically better with a second person because the AI ranges from decent to bad, and simply can't look after itself on the harder difficulty, and it doesn't do an "AI knocked out" type of coop where the AI gets downed temporarily but can't be actually killed (or ignored). At least in Resident Evil 4 Ashley will just stay behind you and behave or hide in a crate. Unlike something like Obscure (the first game at least) or Resident Evil Zero, you also can't optionally choose to go solo. Really fun with a second person in splitscreen and probably the best way to experience the game.



Secret of Mana's combat is slowly beginning to click with me. One of the major points of confusion in the combat for me makes sense now: in addition to an evade animation when an attack connects with them but their evade stat kicks in, normal enemies have two kinds of stagger animations when they take damage, one where they're standing, and one where they're knocked down. Hits will not register during the normal stagger, but any hits you make when they're in their knocked down animation will be queued up and the damage will take effect when they stand up. Learning what animation for enemies is their knockdown vs the normal stagger is pretty important for knowing when you can follow up an attack or if you have to wait for them to move again. This is probably one of the most important pieces of knowledge you can have since I would bet money this is where the majority of the complaints about the game's combat and hit detection come from; enemies have full invulnerability on one of their two damaged animations, the standing one, whereas the knockdown one is susceptible to followup attacks but does not show the hits registering until the knockdown finishes. This was something I discovered while playing and had a kind of "eureka" moment when I realized it. I'm surprised the SoM fans here did not think to explain this important detail in response to complaints about the hit detection since it's a subtle but absolutely crucial piece of information in understanding the game's combat and how hit detection works. It's not that the game's hit detection sucks, it's that the game appears to randomly pick between two different damage animations on normal enemies and one of them has full invulnerability, which leads to confusion as to when attacks will successfully hit or not until you realize what's happening.

Similarly, some status effects allow you to repeatedly hit enemies as if they were knocked down, while some such as the snowman one do not. Petrify and engulfed in flames both seem to allow hits to connect, making Gnome and Salamando's weapon buffs vastly more useful than Undine's.

Bosses do not appear to ever be knocked down and often spellcast immediately after being hit, which is why spamming melee on bosses generally does not seem to work and you have to deliberately wait for them to be a) moving and b) not casting a spell. Offensive spells ignore all this and simply do immediate damage when they hit so long as the enemy is onscreen when the spell hits, which is why they're so damn useful (it's possible for some bosses/enemies to burrow underground and such before the spell resolves, but this is rarely an issue).

I doubt I'm ever gonna sing the praises of the combat compared to other more action-y top-down games since I still don't particularly like the pacing or feel of it. There was an MS-DOS adventure RPG game called Genie's Curse that I highly recommend, you eventually unlock two levels of melee charge attacks but your movement isn't affected when charging, so you can run around and explore without feeling like you're moving at a snail's pace whenever you want to use the charge attack (and the game encourages the charges with them being wider and stronger, with a blazingly fast charge speed). That and Brain Lord's magic system where you charge to use magic without movement speed being affected, both those felt more fun since you could run around using your charge attacks without feeling like you were compromising movement speed to do so (something that detrimentally affects both combat itself and exploration). Still, I think I mostly understand SoM now except what triggers knockdowns. I don't know if it's just a 50/50 chance on a hit to choose between a normal stagger or the knockdown where you can follow up attacks, but there seems to be some luck involved and it's not a basic normal attacks stagger, charge attacks knockdown kind of thing? Also, I might be wrong, but I think enemies cannot evade attacks when knocked down.

Still surprised I generally don't mind playing with the AI. Their positioning can be dumb at times in boss fights which is where local co-op helps if the boss tends to be a physical attacker, and they're definitely better with ranged weapons (chakram, whip, javelin, bow), but they function pretty decently in normal encounters, especially given AI-controlled teammates in a real-time action game was a relatively unusual thing at the time the game was made. I do find it a bit difficult trying to herd them along if I want to just go past enemies since regardless of AI setting they love stopping to target each enemy I pass. The run button seems to be the key here, it seems to cause the AI to ignore enemies as long as they don't get hung up on terrain.

I'm slowly "getting" the game but even with the combat feeling like some of its rough edges are smoothed out, it's still distinctly not for me, alas. The plot doesn't feel particularly interesting to me when I compare it to other RPGs I've played that were made before SoM's release, and the Dwarf Village and spooky temple music are ear-grating to me and repeated in multiple areas early on. Currently in Northtown and dreading how many more times I might have to listen to those.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:33 pm 


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I feel you guys on this. I'm playing with a buddy.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:23 pm 


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How many co-op survival horror games are even out there? It seems like a pretty rare thing and I can't actually think of any off the top of my head other than the later RE games that offer it (RE5 is possibly the best in the genre) and Obscure 1 and 2 for PS2/Steam PC (not splitscreen, player 1 has the primary camera).

I always thought a multiplayer option in a survival horror was pretty damn unique when I first played Obscure. The combat's not super complex and the AI handles its job well in aggressively using the flashlight to make enemies vulnerable, but it's obviously more fun with a friend, and you couldn't do multiplayer in other games with AI partners such as Resident Evil 0 or Silent Hill 4. You can go solo if you want, but generally the AI in Obscure is pretty helpful with a ranged weapon except for
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the final boss (who has a specific instadeath attack that's easier to avoid solo).
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:13 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
How many co-op survival horror games are even out there? It seems like a pretty rare thing and I can't actually think of any off the top of my head other than the later RE games that offer it (RE5 is possibly the best in the genre) and Obscure 1 and 2 for PS2/Steam PC (not splitscreen, player 1 has the primary camera).


IMO RE4/5/6 are action games, not survival horror games. Resource management is barely a thing in 5. I guess maybe the Outbreak games would be more 'pure' co-op survival horror. I think Left 4 Dead 1/2 might even fall more in line with my conception of survival horror.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:23 am 


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it290 wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
How many co-op survival horror games are even out there? It seems like a pretty rare thing and I can't actually think of any off the top of my head other than the later RE games that offer it (RE5 is possibly the best in the genre) and Obscure 1 and 2 for PS2/Steam PC (not splitscreen, player 1 has the primary camera).


IMO RE4/5/6 are action games, not survival horror games. Resource management is barely a thing in 5. I guess maybe the Outbreak games would be more 'pure' co-op survival horror. I think Left 4 Dead 1/2 might even fall more in line with my conception of survival horror.


I'm not a horror guy at all but I completely agree with this. I don't think I've ever loved a true horror game (though Kuon is pretty amazing, in weird ways).

Been playing co-op Dragon's Crown as well. Seems pretty safe to say this is Vanilla Ware's best game? Pretty low bar I know.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 am 


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I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 2000 version of Aliens vs Predator is the greatest horror game ever created, specifically because you aren't playing a character intentionally crippled in order to amp up the tension in low-skill engagements.

The AvP marine is as fast as the DOOM marine, has a plentiful supply of ammo and an underslung grenade launcher, but those randomly placed aliens are so fast and so hard to spot that it retains its pants-shitting terror even on multiple replays.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:31 am 


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I've seen some footage of old AVP. Thought it looked fun-ish but not scary at all. Should give it a try.

I'd say the current crown for survival horror - from a purely gameplay standpoint at least - is Resident Evil 2 Remake. It nails just the right balance between vulnerability, resource management, and combat that has just the right amount of spacing and aiming challenge under pressure to keep the actual monster face downs entertaining but nailbiting and panic inducing.

Not sure if it or DMC5 takes my GOTY 2019. But it's pretty damn desert island worthy. I've done at least 10 playthroughs.

While we're still on the subject of RE, I'll agree 4 onward aren't horror games, but I still found The Regenerators in 4 to be the singularly most frightening and unsettling moment in the entire franchise. Everything about that first encounter sequence - from the morbid build up to the claustrophobic maze running gameplay of it - was just nightmarish in a way that nothing in either Remake managed.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:36 am 


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Jaguar AvP is even scarier. All you can hear is the ventilation and motion tracker, but your marine is slow to turn around and run, so you will experience atrocious jump scares and desperate 'run dont look back' escapes :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:09 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I've seen some footage of old AVP. Thought it looked fun-ish but not scary at all. Should give it a try.

It's scary as fuck. Maybe not Project Zero-style scary, but it's up there!


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:49 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I've seen some footage of old AVP. Thought it looked fun-ish but not scary at all. Should give it a try.

I'd say the current crown for survival horror - from a purely gameplay standpoint at least - is Resident Evil 2 Remake. It nails just the right balance between vulnerability, resource management, and combat that has just the right amount of spacing and aiming challenge under pressure to keep the actual monster face downs entertaining but nailbiting and panic inducing.

Not sure if it or DMC5 takes my GOTY 2019. But it's pretty damn desert island worthy. I've done at least 10 playthroughs.

While we're still on the subject of RE, I'll agree 4 onward aren't horror games, but I still found The Regenerators in 4 to be the singularly most frightening and unsettling moment in the entire franchise. Everything about that first encounter sequence - from the morbid build up to the claustrophobic maze running gameplay of it - was just nightmarish in a way that nothing in either Remake managed.


Res Ev 2 remake is so good and I didn't even like the original.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:32 pm 


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it290 wrote:
IMO RE4/5/6 are action games, not survival horror games. Resource management is barely a thing in 5. I guess maybe the Outbreak games would be more 'pure' co-op survival horror. I think Left 4 Dead 1/2 might even fall more in line with my conception of survival horror.

Totally agree. Without resource management, it's a shooting gallery. Not survival horror...


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:07 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
it290 wrote:
IMO RE4/5/6 are action games, not survival horror games. Resource management is barely a thing in 5. I guess maybe the Outbreak games would be more 'pure' co-op survival horror. I think Left 4 Dead 1/2 might even fall more in line with my conception of survival horror.

Totally agree. Without resource management, it's a shooting gallery. Not survival horror...


Much better games this way in my book. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:32 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Much better games this way in my book. :wink:

it could very well be for you. it's a different genre. so wheter you like that genre or not, is up to personal tastes at this point

Having limited resources and making choices(trying to figure out which will work best) regarding which weapon combination to carry for a specific stretch, gives me a great fucking feeling when I pull through a difficult said stretch. The choices I thought hard about and made, has paid off. and it is extremely rewarding

Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'd say the current crown for survival horror - from a purely gameplay standpoint at least - is Resident Evil 2 Remake. It nails just the right balance between vulnerability, resource management, and combat that has just the right amount of spacing and aiming challenge under pressure to keep the actual monster face downs entertaining but nailbiting and panic inducing.


Yeah RE2 Remake looks really dope. Definitely gonna pick that one up.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:01 pm 


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Yeah I understand the appeal. I tend to prefer strategy games and well made roguelikes for that kind of fighting against rng/resources element.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Yeah I understand the appeal. I tend to prefer strategy games and well made roguelikes for that kind of fighting against rng/resources element.

Fair enough. But those games don't offer a SPOOKY GOOD TIME tho, so when you crave that combo, survival horror is a real treat :P


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:33 pm 


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True. I guess I'm pretty picky about those. I LOVED the atmosphere in Kuon, like hooooory sheeeeeeet.

Spoiler: show
Image


The sheer terror of that and several of the other monsters set in ancient Japan.

RE4 had a great atmosphere as well imo. And I do think the early games were good in that regard as well, there was just too much fighting against the controls and I didn't like the visuals if that makes any sense. The remake is SUBLIME however.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 pm 


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gat damn, that Kuon art is deliciously twisted and disgusting


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:18 pm 


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Not really in the mood for going back to Probotector MD (fuck those junkyard and jungle levels), I decided to give the copy of Zelda: A Link between worlds I recently picked up for pennies a spin. I‘m not very far into it, but so far, I‘m pleasantly surprised. It‘s an interesting move to make most of the items available so early in the game. I also like the small map reminiscent of Link‘s Awakening. I expect that map size to double mid-game in a „surprising“ plot twist, though.

Additionally, I‘ve been playing a lot of Konami‘s Pixel Puzzle Collection lately. I‘m a sucker for Picross-like games, and this is a very good one. That every puzzle is a lovely piece of Konami history just adds to the charm.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:58 pm 


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Herr Schatten wrote:
I decided to give the copy of Zelda: A Link between worlds I recently picked up for pennies a spin.

I enjoyed this one a lot, though it also holds my personal distinction of being the only 3DS title I ever actually kept the 3D on for.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:42 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
I enjoyed this one a lot, though it also holds my personal distinction of being the only 3DS title I ever actually kept the 3D on for.


but..but...but....OutRun!
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:39 am 


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I think my one of my favorite things about survival horror games is the safe/save room. I love the sense of tension relief and coziness from getting to a nice comfy safe room after all that high tension danger zone trekking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1o_3yBe6Cg

Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'd say the current crown for survival horror - from a purely gameplay standpoint at least - is Resident Evil 2 Remake. It nails just the right balance between vulnerability, resource management, and combat that has just the right amount of spacing and aiming challenge under pressure to keep the actual monster face downs entertaining but nailbiting and panic inducing.


Yeah RE2 Remake looks really dope. Definitely gonna pick that one up.[/quote]

You won't regret it! It's an amazing game.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 pm 


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Anyone else played Racing Gears Advance? Definitely the best 2D racing game I've ever played. Or at least a really good Rock'n'Roll Racing clone.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:08 am 


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CyberAngel wrote:
Anyone else played Racing Gears Advance? Definitely the best 2D racing game I've ever played. Or at least a really good Rock'n'Roll Racing clone.


Oh, OK colour me interested. R&RR is still one of my favourite racers of all-time. Will need to check this out asap.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:53 pm 


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I checked on youtube and it definitely looks similar in terms of gameplay.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:41 pm 


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Slight advertisement here, but we have a thread on Rolling Start about isometric racers that should work as a starting point if you're looking for more of that kind.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:39 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
How many co-op survival horror games are even out there? It seems like a pretty rare thing and I can't actually think of any off the top of my head other than the later RE games that offer it (RE5 is possibly the best in the genre) and Obscure 1 and 2 for PS2/Steam PC (not splitscreen, player 1 has the primary camera).


i like dead space 3 dramatically better than re5. ds3 is filled with problems compared to its predecessor, but i think its co-op is considerably more fun than re5, and i've played through both on their hardest difficulties with at least a couple of different friends. frankly, i consider re5 to be really low-tiered as far as fun co-op shooters go - it apes re4's mechanics in a bad way (some enemies are nearly identical to re4 enemies, only now you can strafe and that trivializes them), has a really unsustainable progression system where everyone just grinds for infinite ammo super-guns, and has some really well and truly awful level design coupled with constant, brutally unenjoyable qte's and a few dreadful turret segments. it's also really visually hideous and the racism feels so casual and so overt that it's frankly worth mentioning. i know people on here don't really go for political commentary on games, but the black zombies literally reverting to spear-chucking, voodoo-using, ungah bungah savages goes a little beyond the pale compared to re4's much more digestible rural spanish village racism harkening more to playfully cheesy exploitation movies.

i'd probably rather replay re6 than re5 again, really. leon and baby wesker have awful campaigns, but chris' is actually pretty dang decent. even further from a survival horror experience than re5, but i feel like when you're playing these co-op, the survival horror pretense doesn't do much, anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:31 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I think my one of my favorite things about survival horror games is the safe/save room. I love the sense of tension relief and coziness from getting to a nice comfy safe room after all that high tension danger zone trekking.

It's a great feeling :mrgreen: adrenaline rush followed by endorphin rush :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:30 am 


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Finally delved into Cave Noire.

At first my reaction was this is just a run-of-the-mill roguelike, completely typical for the genre, if a little simplified.
But after a while it just starts to click, and playing it is just super addicting due to the short runs each dungeon crawl represents.
It has its share of unfairness as is typical for the genre - like getting clobbered by a knight guy the moment you enter a room for the first time, but by far most of my deaths was entirely my own fault.

it takes a while to figure it out, but learning the movement mechanics in terms of when enemies are allowed to attack you is central to survival, along with simply learning the 100% predictable movement patterns of each enemy type. It took me a while to realize that most monsters in the game will make absolutely no effort to chase you down, and simply patrol the area until you foolishly position yourself in their range. You can even place yourself in a way that blocks them from moving forward without getting into combat, which is pretty unintuitive, but it's kinda fun to make use of.

Definitely a worthy recommendation for anyone interested in a casual, no-frills dungeon crawler that suits the portable format well due to the short dungeons.

I'm curious if there's any good reason to continue the dungeons after beating level 6? Outside of just challenging yourself of course. The game doesn't feel like the kind that'd care much to recognize your progress outside of maybe a "congradulation !". I actually initially thought you'd open up a fifth dungeon (the center of the map, which I guess is really just your home town?) after reaching certain progress in all the other ones, but I'm guessing that's not a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:00 am 


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Sumez wrote:
I'm curious if there's any good reason to continue the dungeons after beating level 6? Outside of just challenging yourself of course. The game doesn't feel like the kind that'd care much to recognize your progress outside of maybe a "congradulation !". I actually initially thought you'd open up a fifth dungeon (the center of the map, which I guess is really just your home town?) after reaching certain progress in all the other ones, but I'm guessing that's not a thing.


i think there's a special ending if you get several dungeons (or all of them?) to 10, but you get a regular ending iirc at 6. i really loved that game.
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 Post subject: Re: What [not shmup] game are you playing now?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:55 am 


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It kind of would have been nice with a real finale to the game. Like I suggested, unlocking a new dungeon, or maybe even a final boss fight (though it's hard to imagine how it would play out in this game's system).
Let's just file this under Dream Game Hackz.


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