Things to do with old high-end PC CRT monitor? NEC FP2141SB

[Dochartaigh]

I'm picking up a NEC MultiSync FP2141SB PC VGA monitor tomorrow (seems to be same as LaCie Blue IV and Mitsubishi 2070SB and a couple other models). What can I do with this?








I've only really messed around with a Sony CPD-520GS 21" PC Monitor before (lower spec'd @ 1600 x 1200 at 75 Hz) and although it was supposed to be barely used (guy bought it new and used it in his server room turned off 99.9% of the time) I really found it not as vibrant/bright as my multiformat PVM/BVM's so it's sat in storage mostly – so I've barely messed around with PC CRT monitors.

Any ideas on how to mess with this best? I was thinking (and need advice on):

I have an old Windows 98 PC (800mhz Pentium III, Intel CA810E Motherboard with integrated? 82810E DC-133 video - don't even think this has a stand-alone video card in it) and I would like to play games like Doom 1/2, Warcraft II/III, Quake, and Diablo I/II (and a bunch of DOS games, although I have to figure out how to lower the processor speed as many of them play WAY too fast at the moment...). I'm not going to have any luck running those Win98 games at a higher resolution on this monitor, right? The games might not be programmed for that, and this PC is too slow especially with no real video card, right? When I tried this last the biggest problem for me is even when I run games like Diablo or Warcraft at higher resolutions (than normal-back-in-the-day 640x480 or 800x600, maybe 1024x768) the view is still super small by modern standards (i.e. how much of the landscape you can see is pretty minuscule and I just couldn't get into those games because of this...always felt like everyting was WAY zoomed-in and I had to scroll WAY too often - especially in WarCraft). Any hacks for these games to show more of the landscape?

I have a bunch of 480p consoles too: OG Xbox (Frozen VGA cable modded to RGBS), DC (run the Toro at RGBHV), GC (played through Wii - have a YPbPr to RGBS converter), Xbox 360 (RGBHV) even. I have things like Extron RGB's to get RGBHV out of a RGBS system, and a YPbPr to RGBS converter for the Wii. All those consoles run through my Extron Crosspoint so it's pure RGBHV via BNC connectors (I have plenty BNC to VGA adapters). Am I going to miss out on anything if I don't use an actual VGA cable with those extra pins? I know VGA uses some of those extra pins for telling the PC or whatever what resolutions it can run, right? The only real/true VGA plug is the Xbox 360 (which has a whole slew of 4:3 VGA resolutions available - if the games support them) but I would need to buy a 25' long VGA cable to have that reach this monitor.

Also kinda interested in running my GroovyMAME Windows 10 PC with HD6450 1GB VGA card (which says it can do 2048x1536 which is the max of this monitor - although 1600x1200@85Hz is the recommended) at some of these high resolutions. I see people emulating 4:3 games at 120hz (think that's it) all the time - complete with scanlines, but have never looked into it. What's the best/recommended way to go about that? I can get a basic RetroArch setup running pretty easy - just don't know how to go about setting the resolution, and don't know if GroovyMAME's CRT-Emudriver's drivers will mess that up or whatever (I know those drivers kinda took over even the i7 7700's integrated Intel HD Graphics 630 video output even – which I run through HDMI to my 4K TV and it does some funky things like green screening YouTube videos, or even animated GIFs every so often - think I turned off a setting which fixed this though - just thought I'd mention).

Open to anything else I can experiment with as well. Although I've found well over 100 PVM/BVM's locally, this is literally only the SECOND higher-end 20"+ PC Monitor I've been able to find in about 2 years strangely enough...

[maxtherabbit]

I have a bunch of 480p consoles too: OG Xbox (Frozen VGA cable modded to RGBS), DC (run the Toro at RGBHV), GC (played through Wii - have a YPbPr to RGBS converter), Xbox 360 (RGBHV) even. I have things like Extron RGB's to get RGBHV out of a RGBS system, and a YPbPr to RGBS converter for the Wii. All those consoles run through my Extron Crosspoint so it's pure RGBHV via BNC connectors (I have plenty BNC to VGA adapters). Am I going to miss out on anything if I don't use an actual VGA cable with those extra pins?

nope, you're probably just fine with 4 BNC
(it's highly likely the monitor supports RGBS)

as for "what to do" I'd say: DC,GC,DOS,xbox

[fernan1234]

Besides everything mentioned I'd try to find an XRGB 2, 2+, or 3, I bet they pair up great with one of these monitors.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote="fern

nope, you're probably just fine with 4 BNC
(it's highly likely the monitor supports RGBS)

I actually can't find what exact inputs it'll take. The regular manual doesn't even use the term "VGA" once! (does say 15-pin D-Sub though). The service manual does mention a sync on green circuit so it'll take RGsB (which nothing I have uses) so I'll probably stick with RGBHV via BNC to VGA dongle.

Besides everything mentioned I'd try to find an XRGB 2, 2+, or 3, I bet they pair up great with one of these monitors.

I have XRGB-mini, OSSC, and Extron DSC 301 HD. No earlier Framemeisters. What are the benefits of those earlier models?





Anybody have a good tutorial they would recommend for doing the RetroArch (assume it's RetroArch) 120hz thing for emulation?

[fernan1234]

I have XRGB-mini, OSSC, and Extron DSC 301 HD. No earlier Framemeisters. What are the benefits of those earlier models?

The earlier XRGBs have virtually no lag (compared to the mini especially), and do immediate 240p-480i transitions (which neither the OSSC nor the mini can offer). They were basically made with PC monitors in mind. I imagine their fake scanlines would look pretty good on a PC CRT.

[FinalBaton]

I'd definitely used that a ton for Dreamcast. And also DOS games. Gotta play some Doom on that, absolutely. Also, japanese PCs like the PC-98 (I think that one is mainly 31kHz games but not sure).

And also : just a place to play your emulators, ya know? Playing your fav emulators on pc on a pc CRT is a great experience. Way more fun than to output it to a flatpanel, IMO.

[vol.2]

[quote="fern

nope, you're probably just fine with 4 BNC
(it's highly likely the monitor supports RGBS)

I actually can't find what exact inputs it'll take. The regular manual doesn't even use the term "VGA" once! (does say 15-pin D-Sub though). The service manual does mention a sync on green circuit so it'll take RGsB (which nothing I have uses) so I'll probably stick with RGBHV via BNC to VGA dongle.

Besides everything mentioned I'd try to find an XRGB 2, 2+, or 3, I bet they pair up great with one of these monitors.

I have XRGB-mini, OSSC, and Extron DSC 301 HD. No earlier Framemeisters. What are the benefits of those earlier models?





Anybody have a good tutorial they would recommend for doing the RetroArch (assume it's RetroArch) 120hz thing for emulation?

15 pin D-sub is the connector used for VGA. Technically is called a DE-15.

Framemeister is digital output. Can't hook up to VGA

Should be no discernible difference between DE-15 and BNC. Theory was that BNC would be better because it separates the lines physically at the terminal. I don't think it ever really made a difference tho. (anecdotally speaking)

It's going to be awesome for 90's PC games. Anything on 95, XP, whatever. I have a similar era high res 20" but a sony and it rules.

[vol.2]

I really found it not as vibrant/bright as my multiformat PVM/BVM's so it's sat in storage mostly – so I've barely messed around with PC CRT monitors.

It's also my experience that 90's/early 2000's hi-res monitors are not as bright as video monitors. With some really dedicated tweaking, you can optimize for it tho. On mine, it was a matter of lowering the "brightness" and raising the "contrast," which is more or less backwards from what it sounds like. On CRT PC monitors, brightness is adjusting black level, and contrast is increasing the picture. There's a point at which you will find a sweet spot. Pro calibration software can also help tune the temperature and colors.

[Guspaz]

The OSSC that you already have can be connected to a CRT via a pretty cheap HDMI-to-VGA adapter, and it'll still be basically a near-zero-latency experience since those things don't have framebuffeers. There was somebody who did a roundup of a whole bunch of those on here a while ago with a focus on the OSSC.

[maxtherabbit]

The GBS scaler running rama's CFW would be absolutely perfect for a high end PC CRT. And one can be had for 20 bucks

[jandrogo]

All stuff at 640x480 or higher will look awesome.
So just plug a Dreamcast, Wii, Xbox or x360 and enjoy.

[Dochartaigh]

I tried this last night a bit. Seems like my Win98 PC is too slow to run even Warcraft III at 800x600 (or maybe I tried 1024x768). Doom and Quake only have 320x240 modes? I vaguely remember some command line stuff for Quake with how you start it I'll have to google.

Also having a problem with the screen not being edge-to-edge at different resolutions. Am I going crazy or when we were younger I never remembered having to go into the monitors settings (through the monitors buttons and OSD) to make the image wider or taller when I changed resolutions - how do people handle this? Also kinda scared that if I tune it for DC's 480p output that 640x480 on my Win98 monitor will then be off and I'll have to be adjusting it constantly.

Last, how can I try some higher resolutions with this on my Windows 10 PC running GroovyMAME/CRTemudriver? The analog out of my HD6450 is currently setup for 240p and that GroovyMAME setup took me so many hours to finally get working I don't want to screw it up. Was planning on trying RetroArch's 240p/120hz setting (or whatever that is).

[vol.2]

I tried this last night a bit. Seems like my Win98 PC is too slow to run even Warcraft III at 800x600 (or maybe I tried 1024x768). Doom and Quake only have 320x240 modes? I vaguely remember some command line stuff for Quake with how you start it I'll have to google.

Also having a problem with the screen not being edge-to-edge at different resolutions. Am I going crazy or when we were younger I never remembered having to go into the monitors settings (through the monitors buttons and OSD) to make the image wider or taller when I changed resolutions - how do people handle this? Also kinda scared that if I tune it for DC's 480p output that 640x480 on my Win98 monitor will then be off and I'll have to be adjusting it constantly.

Last, how can I try some higher resolutions with this on my Windows 10 PC running GroovyMAME/CRTemudriver? The analog out of my HD6450 is currently setup for 240p and that GroovyMAME setup took me so many hours to finally get working I don't want to screw it up. Was planning on trying RetroArch's 240p/120hz setting (or whatever that is).

Quake should have higher res modes than that for sure and Doom should as well. Isn't there an options menu when you press esc? Should be options>video modes and then you press LR arrow keys over resolutions.

That's odd you're adjusting the screen geometry when changing resolutions. I haven't had to do that and it sounds really annoying. (It's usually just set it up once for an input for me) Perhaps there is a setting to toggles some auto adjust feature on and off?

For mame can you A) save a profile for you graphics card? or B) have a second install of mame that is for the regular PC monitor?
I'm unclear if you are changing setting on your GPU to enable 15 kHz 240p, or it's all settings in mame.

The thing you mostly have to look out for is that if you setup your GPU for 240p (and it's going to a 15kHz display) you won't be able to drive the CRT PC monitor. (which is ~31kHz)
The new CRT monitor is going to accept the same analog signal as any flat panel with a VGA input, so you just need a "vanilla" installation of mame (or groovy) to run it.

[Dochartaigh]

Quake should have higher res modes than that for sure and Doom should as well. Isn't there an options menu when you press esc? Should be options>video modes and then you press LR arrow keys over resolutions.

Doom doesn't have a menu where you pick a resolution. Quake does but they're all around 320x200 (which I didn't even know this monitor can do...so it's probably a type of EGA? or whatever earlier PC monitor signal?). All the higher resolution choices are through the command line if my memory from like 15+ years ago serves. I'll google.

That's odd you're adjusting the screen geometry when changing resolutions. I haven't had to do that and it sounds really annoying. (It's usually just set it up once for an input for me) Perhaps there is a setting to toggles some auto adjust feature on and off?

I just ran through 640x480 to 1600x1200 (which only gives me 256 colors on my old Win98 PC), and each is adjusted independently, including geometry, and are saved on a per-resolution basis (so that's good at least). Bad part is OG Xbox and DC both use the 480p (640 or 720 or whatever x 480) setting as well so when I change the monitor so those are centered and scaled on those concoles correctly, then switch back to Windows 640x480 that's then off center.

Auto adjust feature hasn't worked on anything I tried it with (but that's never worked on ANYTHING I've ever tried it with from Extrons to TVOne's).

For mame can you A) save a profile for you graphics card? or B) have a second install of mame that is for the regular PC monitor?
I'm unclear if you are changing setting on your GPU to enable 15 kHz 240p, or it's all settings in mame.

The thing you mostly have to look out for is that if you setup your GPU for 240p (and it's going to a 15kHz display) you won't be able to drive the CRT PC monitor. (which is ~31kHz)
The new CRT monitor is going to accept the same analog signal as any flat panel with a VGA input, so you just need a "vanilla" installation of mame (or groovy) to run it.

Problem is CRT_Emudriver, when used with GroovyMAME, makes you setup a bunch of switchres's (think that's what they're called, maybe 'modelines'). Usually they're a bunch of arcade-like resolutions such as 240p, 224p (and funky ones around that), even 480i - and 480p if you're using it with a multiformat PVM/BVM. The graphics card isn't saving anything I don't think - the CRT_Emudriver driver system does it...so I still don't know how to run some super high resolutions on this monitor when the PC is running drivers for CRT_Emudriver (without messing up my regular arcade-like resolutions at least).

Somebody mentioned using a HDMI to VGA adapter, but I'm out of HDMI ports on my Vorke HDMI switch so that's a bit of a large undertaking to wire in another one just for a single system (plus I already have analog VGA out from the PC and want to be able to use it on a higher-res PC CRT monitor).

[vol.2]

Doom doesn't have a menu where you pick a resolution. Quake does but they're all around 320x200 (which I didn't even know this monitor can do...so it's probably a type of EGA? or whatever earlier PC monitor signal?). All the higher resolution choices are through the command line if my memory from like 15+ years ago serves. I'll google.

VGA can run down to 320x200 probably stretched to 4:3. EGA is TTL, so a totally different kind of signal that you would need both a card and a monitor specifically capable of support.

I wonder what version of quake you are running? I think the super OG version was 320x200 only, but that was patched. Any patched version post 1996 or anything using opengl would go up to 800x600 I think, including winquake.

Honestly, I use a win 7 machine for what you are doing. It's just an old core 2 duo laptop with an ancient amd gpu in it, but it can play that kind of stuff great. You can run Zdoom https://zdoom.org/index and Darkplaces http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/ and get whatever resolutions you want (or fancy visual effects)

Sounds like the screen geometry thing may be the fault of win 95? Sucks tho. Maybe you could find a cheapo old laptop like the one I'm using for this in-between stuff you're trying to do?

[Dochartaigh]

I wonder what version of quake you are running? I think the super OG version was 320x200 only, but that was patched. Any patched version post 1996 or anything using opengl would go up to 800x600 I think, including winquake.

Honestly, I use a win 7 machine for what you are doing. It's just an old core 2 duo laptop with an ancient amd gpu in it, but it can play that kind of stuff great. You can run Zdoom https://zdoom.org/index and Darkplaces http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/ and get whatever resolutions you want (or fancy visual effects)

The Quake I have is from the old shareware disk (like the original) where you can hack it for the full version. I'll look into downloading one of those new (but still ancient versions.

For the Zdoom and darkplaces - thanks for the links. Once I figure out how to run higher res stuff on my way more powerful Win10 computer I'll look into checking those out (honestly might even run DOSbox on the Win10 and ditch the ancient 800mhz Pentium III...but I'm kinda a sucker for all original...even have an old IBM Model M keyboard I use with it...)

[ZellSF]

games like Diablo or Warcraft at higher resolutions (than normal-back-in-the-day 640x480 or 800x600, maybe 1024x768) the view is still super small by modern standards (i.e. how much of the landscape you can see is pretty minuscule and I just couldn't get into those games because of this...always felt like everyting was WAY zoomed-in and I had to scroll WAY too often - especially in WarCraft). Any hacks for these games to show more of the landscape?

For a lot of those games, sure. But there aren't any I would recommend for those two. For Diablo there's this:
https://mod.diablo.noktis.pl/download
It's unfortunately a mod that makes other changes in addition that might not be desirable.

For Warcraft 2 there's Wargus:
http://wargus.github.io/
I'm going to guess the AI will behave wildly different than it should though, since it's an engine recreation done without any source code.

The earlier XRGBs have virtually no lag (compared to the mini especially), and do immediate 240p-480i transitions (which neither the OSSC nor the mini can offer).

Pretty sure this is wrong, the OSSC should be able to do transitions instantly (your display might not).

Quake should have higher res modes than that for sure and Doom should as well.

Doom was always 320x200 only. There's no way to change resolution outside of source ports. And you should at the very least use a Boom compatible source port anyway, for access to more custom levels.

VGA can run down to 320x200 probably stretched to 4:3.

He might be confused about the resolution, not the aspect ratio. 320x200 sounds like a 15khz resolution a 31khz display wouldn't support. VGA cards internally linedouble that resolution, so as far as the display is concerned, it's getting 640x400.

[vol.2]

VGA cards internally linedouble that resolution, so as far as the display is concerned, it's getting 640x400.

For the life of me, I cannot remember anything about VGA "linedoubling" 320x200 output. Could you possibly link me to something about this?



Edit: So, I think what you are talking about is the vertical line-doubling that happens in some VGA modes (most notably 13h) That is a vertical double scan. A VGA card pushes 320x400 and a monitor stretches it horizontally.

[FinalBaton]

To me Diablo looks plenty clear at 800x600 *shrugs*
I even replayed my disc last year, and that was on my TV that had to upscale the picture, and it looked fine.
(fun fact : Diablo disc runs on Win 7. You just gotta disable Aero desktop.)

Also I could have sworn that DOOM always had both a mode called "h32", which is the native res of 320x200, and a line-doubled VGA mode. Or maybe that was patched-in shortly after the shareware got out(or for the retail release)?

[ZellSF]

VGA cards internally linedouble that resolution, so as far as the display is concerned, it's getting 640x400.

For the life of me, I cannot remember anything about VGA "linedoubling" 320x200 output. Could you possibly link me to something about this?



Edit: So, I think what you are talking about is the vertical line-doubling that happens in some VGA modes (most notably 13h) That is a vertical double scan. A VGA card pushes 320x400 and a monitor stretches it horizontally.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Obviously doesn't apply to modes like 640x480.

To me Diablo looks plenty clear at 800x600 *shrugs*

Not that it matters in any way, but Diablo is 640x480.

Also I could have sworn that DOOM always had both a mode called "h32", which is the native res of 320x200, and a line-doubled VGA mode. Or maybe that was patched-in shortly after the shareware got out(or for the retail release)?

It's also equally plausible that your memory is being confused by source ports, I mean Doom's source code was released 20 years ago.

Or maybe Doom95 (which should be avoided).

[vol.2]

Yes, that's what I meant.

Obviously doesn't apply to modes like 640x480.

Ok. If that's what you talking about, then just fyi, it isn't 640x400. If your monitor says that, it's just guessing based on the vertical resolution. As a point of reference, if you throw 13h out to a 1980's IBM PS/2 display that has a weird aspect ratio (I think they were 9x5) it would tell you that it was 720x400.

Thanks though, it's been awhile since I got to brush up on 80's VGA resolutions

[buttersoft]

I use my 21" PC CRT for older and retro-ish games like Project Warlock, but also for watching old TV shows. The original Star Trek looks pretty bad now due to the pixelation of old analog TV transfered to digital format. On MY CRT it looks much, much nicer. (and has turned out to be way better than i remembered, but that's a separate thread.)

About the 15khZ & highres from the same GPU port on crt_emudriver question, i'd post up on the GM forum about it. If you're using different ports, EDID emulation should help.

A PC CRT monitor is never going to be terribly bright, and the higher res they get, the less bright they are, everything else aside. The pitch gets finer and finer which leads to less overall phosphor area.

[Dochartaigh]

About the 15khZ & highres from the same GPU port on crt_emudriver question, i'd post up on the GM forum about it. If you're using different ports, EDID emulation should help.

A PC CRT monitor is never going to be terribly bright, and the higher res they get, the less bright they are, everything else aside. The pitch gets finer and finer which leads to less overall phosphor area.

I'll try there. Had a guy on another group give me some tips too but I haven't had the time to try them yet.

This monitor actually goes WAY brighter than I would ever use it, with it's "superbright" mode. Definitely on par with my multiformat PVM and BVM's (color is another matter...but it's not like I've calibrated the NEC or anything).

[NJRoadfan]

Can confirm that high end computer monitors work great with the early XRGB boxes. I had my XRGB2+ connected to a Sun (Sony) 20" monitor for awhile.

[NoAffinity]

The GBS scaler running rama's CFW would be absolutely perfect for a high end PC CRT. And one can be had for 20 bucks

It is! Seconding this recommendation. Got 2 pc crt's in a local auction recently for $5. Both 17" and working great. Wouldve liked to get larger, but these things are getting impossible to find. Anyhoo, all retro consoles via gbs 8200 w/ cfw look and play fantastic.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Bahn Yuki]

I have an Apple Studio monitor 21" which houses a Sony Trinitron. I've set up a 240p@120hz that looks absolutely incredible. I'll make a video of it running Retroarch soon

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[BazookaBen]

I have the LaCie electron22blueIV, which is basically the same monitor as yours. Has all the same features, menu layout is the same, etc. Probably identical tubes too.


Anyway, I use mine for consoles that support 480p and higher. Including modern stuff like the Nintendo switch. And they still work really well as PC monitors, since many PC games still support 4:3. I was pleasantly surprised when the new PC port of Tetris Effect was fullscreen 4:3.

And a must have program for a PC CRT is user is Custom Resolution Utility. It allows you to create any resolution/refresh rate combo you desire. Like I'm currently playing Apex Legends at 2304x1728@75hz. And Tetris Effect at 1920x1440@90hz.