HD-DVD

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:54 am

Anyone taking the plunge on this site?

Toshibas HD-A1 and HD-X1 are now on sale in the USA at MSRP $500 and $800 respectively. (just google to find out where)

You can watch Last Samurai on the format, I don't know what other movies are out.

Sony's first Blu-ray player is up for pre-order at Ultimate

http://www.ultimatelectronics.com/shopp ... uctID=5696

$1000

.

Makes PS3 sound like a bargain

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:58 am

My guess is that the cheaper format will reign.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:17 am

Well thats interesting because HDDVD is losing support, BR is gaining support and the prices dictate BR is much more expensive.

But, and its a big but... there are hardly any movies out on HDDVD and BR doesnt come out until August.

HDDVD is also maxing its potential early on. With 9gig of storage data its borderlining on the verge of having no new potential down the line. So if some new higher bitstream audio format comes out, I doubt HDDVD will be able to support it. (at least without making video suffer anyway).

I am sure there are quite a few movies which would span 2 discs on HDDVD. I'd be surprised if King Kong or Titanic were not swappsy movies on this format. BR has this covered.

Whats interesting is the first wave of HD-DVD players do not support 1080p, even though the discs are pressed in 1080p. I know no displays are available at this time to support such resolution, maybe a driver update will become available later on.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:29 am

http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-64 ... ml?tag=txt

Not until the dust settles. Hollywood is crippling a wonderful technology. I also don't have my hopes set on BR. Rumors say that Sony hasn't even finished the specs for BR drives, and I have yet to see a working prototype. This new format war is going to suck the big one. And given Sony's record of crappy software, I wouldn't be surprised if BR drives gave DRE within a week of purchase. Divx rips for me for now.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:58 am

Yeah, the Blu-Ray specs are still up in the air. Seems like too much of a gamble either way; may as well wait for the dust to clear since I rarely buy movies anyway.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:29 am

I'm holding out for some serious price drops on Blu-Ray. Movie prices will be closer to $30, and the players cost an arm and a leg. ($1000? Hell no.) The AACS thing stinks in principle. If your HDTV is too old, forget seeing the movie in full resolution should the studio decide to be a bunch of jerks.

I am leery of HD-DVD, fearing it just might tank against Blu-Ray.

visuatrox · Post by **visuatrox** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:55 am

I'm going to wait a while until I see what format is doing better. I'm definitely going to buy a PS3 eventually, but that does not necessary make me settle with Bluray, because I would rather want a dedicated player for movies anyway (just look at the PS2, the built in DVD player can barely even compete with lowend dedicated players)

The downconversion thing when using analog does not bother me at all, sure sucks for those who were early buying their HDTV, but as with everything if you buy technology that has not settled yet you are always taking a gamble. It would have been much worse if they had not provided any way to get video without HDCP. I myself have made several stupid buying decisions in the past, just because I wanted to have something early.

What annoys me is that it appears like HDDVD and Bluray are not going to have encapsulated media (like say minidiscs). Just a tiny dustparticle is going to results in gigabytes of unreadable data.

Well even though I usually root for the better technology. I must say that HDDVD has a lot going for it. BluRay's only real advantage being better storage capacity. But knowing Sony, they tend to invent a lot of own technologies that they take too high licensing fees for and crippled by copy protections, resulting in smaller companies avoiding using them and higher prices for the consumer (remember memory sticks, minidiscs etc..)

Considering most TV's can't handle 1080p and many would settle with 720p, I think the storage capacity is less significant factor in the format war. The main factor is going to be cost and availability, therefore I think Bluray even though technically better is going to loose. The average people are not going to notice quality difference, they are going to look at the prices and when they see the HDDVD logo they know instantly what it is. Bluray is probably going to end up like a technology for the techgeeks, like LaserDisc.

Personally I'm somewhere inbetween average consumer and the ubergeek, I don't particularly care about the storage capacity difference. My equipment is going to be best suited for 720p anyway. I'm actually more worried about if the media is encapsulated or not, I would rather pay more for something I can use and leave on the table, without it being instantly destroyed by a roaming dustparticle

EDIT: Oh almost forgot one of the most important things, easiness to pirate and manuafacture. If the other format would become much easier to copy, it would gain much ground.

Then already existing DVD pressing factories have to just make a minor upgrade to press HD-DVD's. While for BluRay they would have to invest in completely new equipment.. For those that have been in "less rich" countries, probably know how usual it is with factory made DVD bootlegs avaible everywhere. I bet HDDVD will be the bootleggers favourite format, because they just have to make a minor upgrade on their equipment.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:57 am

Specineff wrote:http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-64 ... ml?tag=txt

Not until the dust settles. Hollywood is crippling a wonderful technology. I also don't have my hopes set on BR. Rumors say that Sony hasn't even finished the specs for BR drives, and I have yet to see a working prototype. This new format war is going to suck the big one. And given Sony's record of crappy software, I wouldn't be surprised if BR drives gave DRE within a week of purchase. Divx rips for me for now.

Thanks for the link. Yeah, this forced downconversion will make HD DvD completely useless because then the picture quality will be pretty much identical to standard DvDs. Why would any sane person buy this?

This new disk format wasn't really necessary in the first place; you could have achieved the same results in a very simple way with ordinary 9GB Dual Layer DvDs: By using mpeg4 for video instead of mpeg2 - no need for more disk space.

Besides, HD DvD is not enough of an advancement; one 20 GB HD DvD disk is just like 2 dual layer DvDs. Why would you buy all new equipment just for that?

BlueRay on the other hand promises 50+ GB which equals 5 or more DL DvDs; that's a pretty good improvement in my opinion.

Anyway, be that as it may; I don't see myself purchasing any DvD-successor for at least another year; the possible exception being a PS3, which I won't buy for watchig movies.

visuatrox · Post by **visuatrox** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:27 pm

"Yeah, this forced downconversion will make HD DvD completely useless because then the picture quality will be pretty much identical to standard DvDs."

960x540 is still a pretty big improvement, most of those early plasma TV's without digitalconnectors only had a resolution of 852x480 anyway.

"This new disk format wasn't really necessary in the first place; you could have achieved the same results in a very simple way with ordinary 9GB Dual Layer DvDs: By using mpeg4 for video"

According to http://www.hddvdprg.com/hddvd/hddvd_3.html
Dual Layer HD DVD-ROM stores 30GB. In other words capacity of more than 3 Dual Layer DVD's. Considering HDDVD players are also capable of MPEG-4 AVC, it can still have significantly better bitrate than what would fit on a regular 9GB DVD-9. Still not as good as Bluray, but good enough for most people.

But it all comes down to what format the movie industry releases their movies on. People like buying movies on media, with neat cases and boxart. Other than HDDVD there is not really any other good legal alternatives to own them in HD quality.

Any sane person should wait though until the dust settles, because the past has proven that the world is not big enough for two movie standards

Although if the prices on both standards are fairly equal they would have to be stupid not to go with BluRay.

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:29 am

[Warning: a huge rant is approaching at full throttle]

I don't care either way. I buy (and watch) DVDs so rarely that I'll probably not bother with either one anytime soon. Since the vast majority of my DVD collection is stuff that's going to inherently be in standard definition anyway (mostly TV and cartoons) high definition isn't going to help it anyway.

For that matter, I'd say based on my experience that if you haven't gone to HD stuff already, I wouldn't be in any rush to do so unless you have a compelling reason for the switch. At least around here, HD isn't quite ready for prime time. Aside from the local channels (which still have most of their programming in SD) my cable package comes with a total of five HD channels, only three of which show full-time HD programming (I could get two more if I subscribed to premium movie channels, which I don't.) Any local sports that does happen to make it to any of the non-local HD channels gets blacked out, and the channels that show Mariners baseball (pretty much the only sports I really care about right now) don't broadcast HD currently. Even the full-time HD channels have very limited programming, most of which seems to be of the "pretty pictures to stick on the demo units at Best Buy" variety. So unless your TV dial never stops anywhere but the "Big Three" you're not very likely to find anything to watch in HD 97% of the time.

I'll worry about next-generation video disc formats in a couple of years, assuming there's actually HD programming worth watching by then.

All in all, I'm not to worried either way. The content just isn't there yet.

Edit: I suppose I should at least finish my sentences...

OneEyedJack · Post by **OneEyedJack** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:38 am

Vex: You would be a late adopter. It is ok. Nothing wrong with that. All you have to do is wait for HD DVD players to be given away with Happy Meals like DVD players are today and wait for the content that pleases you.

Right now everything is priced for early adopters anyway. Call it early adopter tax, like when the PS2 first came out it was $400 US and now it is $129. Early adopter tax.

Wait for when it becomes right for you, and it may never become right for you. That's ok too.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:32 am

I think early adopter politics are very cruel.. you pay the most for the least.

If I were Toshiba I would want every DVD released from this day forward packed with the HD-DVD version of the movie for free. It would sell machines, then you could start charging for HD-DVD's seperately down the line.. Once the transition has gone through 30% of the market.

But no, you get a new player, you have 10 movies to choose from, of which only 2 interest you.. One is usually a reference wildlife show and the other is a movie which will get a better transfer 18 months later

Post by **system11** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:06 am

I already have enough pixels. Who here can honestly say they've watched a standard res film on a screen anything under 40 inches and thought "gee, I really wish I couldn't see all the pixels" - and encoding artifacts from a poor bitrate don't count.

Just seems the companies are stumbling over eachother to ram this new technology down our throats, it's like the biggest beta test ever seen.

bigbadboaz · Post by **bigbadboaz** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:23 am

Another wrinkle I think is going to make this transition very interesting is the proliferation of upscaling for standard DVD. I am looking forward to the chance to compare some standard DVDs run through a quality upscaler against genuine HD discs of the same material. I would not be at all surprised if the upscaled output holds its own. If this turns out to be the case, the huge, cheap library of standard DVDs will prove to be a big obstacle for the more expensive HD discs. When you consider that all of the new players seem to ship with SD-DVD upscaling capabilities, the future looks very interesting... the players may end up discouraging sales of the media.

ahnslaught · Post by **ahnslaught** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:22 am

bloodflowers wrote:I already have enough pixels. Who here can honestly say they've watched a standard res film on a screen anything under 40 inches and thought "gee, I really wish I couldn't see all the pixels" - and encoding artifacts from a poor bitrate don't count.

Just seems the companies are stumbling over eachother to ram this new technology down our throats, it's like the biggest beta test ever seen.

My thoughts exactly! Unlike the switch from vhs to dvd, where I saw a huge difference in quality, convenience (anyone have fond memories of not rewinding before returning rented tapes and getting hit with a $1 penalty?), and durability (I don't understand how some people scratch up their discs as much as they do, but tapes suck, especially if it gets jammed up in the player) that was worth switching over, I'm not feeling the same way for the switch to HDDVD/BD.

Now that I only rent new movies and the dvds I do buy and watch are mostly anime nowadays, dvds are perfect for me. What the hell do I need HD for if i'm looking at huge swaths of single colors anyway?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, the thing I've heard about BD, at least, is that it is less durable than regular dvds - a scratch could mean the loss of lots of data, because the data are so closely packed together. Dumb copy protection restrictions piss me off as well and turns me away from the new formats in general.

Finally, you know it's going to happen, but here's to hoping that studios not release crap old movies in HD. How many people do you think would buy crap like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure again just because it's converted to HD, especially when you could get those on dvd for free from cereal boxes nowadays?

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:33 am

The biggest problem with this upgrade is that for alot of people its a universal upgrade.

SDTV upgrade to HDTV - $2000+ if your serious about the format.
DVD upgrade to HD-DVD/BR - $500/$1000+
DVD disc to HD-DVD/BR disc movies - Extra $10-$15.

I'm sure alot of people will buy the compulsary monster HDMI cables $70.

Well, the 100 million customers that are watching -21" TV's, you can count those people out (in the USA anyway).. so 200 million people left.. out of those at least 180 million are not even interested in any NEW format whatsoever.

Now with DVD, it was universally accepted as THE ONLY standard of video disc (not including laserdisc) and you could use it on ANY TV. Now instead of replacing DVD, they are adding to it. So now we have a potential 3 horse race. BR standards do not actually specify that DVD backwards compatibility is assured, its up to the manufacturer. If you remember in the early days of DVD you had DVD/Laserdisc hybrids.. they only lasted about 1 year on the market because they were expensive and compromised both standards (whats the point?).

If you take DVD backwards compatibility out of BR in the next 18 months to make the players cheaper, you really need a 2000 disc library available with releases matching DVD release regularity.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:23 pm

HD-DVD? Blue-ray?

Life was alot simpler when we had VHS.

Damn newfangled expensive technology......

MSZ · Post by **MSZ** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:47 pm

Vexorg wrote:For that matter, I'd say based on my experience that if you haven't gone to HD stuff already, I wouldn't be in any rush to do so unless you have a compelling reason for the switch. At least around here, HD isn't quite ready for prime time. Aside from the local channels (which still have most of their programming in SD) my cable package comes with a total of five HD channels, only three of which show full-time HD programming (I could get two more if I subscribed to premium movie channels, which I don't.) Any local sports that does happen to make it to any of the non-local HD channels gets blacked out, and the channels that show Mariners baseball (pretty much the only sports I really care about right now) don't broadcast HD currently. Even the full-time HD channels have very limited programming, most of which seems to be of the "pretty pictures to stick on the demo units at Best Buy" variety. So unless your TV dial never stops anywhere but the "Big Three" you're not very likely to find anything to watch in HD 97% of the time.

I have over 20 HD channels right now, most of the prime time programming are in HD. Of course if you don't watch any dramas at all, you can still find lots of sports events in HD. The NBA/NHL playoffs I have been watching in the past few days were mostly HD. May be you should send an email to FSN Seattle to complain about lack of HD baseball coverage...since most of the MLB boardcasts here in Toronto are in HD.

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:46 pm

MSZ wrote:
I have over 20 HD channels right now, most of the prime time programming are in HD. Of course if you don't watch any dramas at all, you can still find lots of sports events in HD. The NBA/NHL playoffs I have been watching in the past few days were mostly HD. May be you should send an email to FSN Seattle to complain about lack of HD baseball coverage...since most of the MLB boardcasts here in Toronto are in HD.

I suspect the lack of HD content can be attributed more to Comcast than anything. Their channel lineup sucks overall (I've got 120 channels on my digital package, and there's only something like 7-8 I even watch on a regular basis,) I have constant problems with their DVR (sometimes it takes as much as ten seconds to respond to a command to stop fast-forwarding) and I have no other alternatives (I'm in a location too obstructed to get a satellite signal, plus the fact that the lease on my apartment is very restrictive on the use of satellite dishes.)

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:28 pm

While I have to admit that I'd like larger disks for data storage, the rate at which new audio/video formats are introduced nowadays is becoming crazy.

VHS lasted 20 years. The DvD format isn't even 10 years old.
How long will the DvD successors last? 5 years?

How many times are you willing to purchase your favorite movies all over again before you begin to feel like an idiot?

If formats are to be replaced so quickly, it would be nice if you could purchase the rights to a film once, and then pay just a small fee to get it on the latest format. Wait, bad idea, what was I thinking. The poor studios!

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:54 pm

To the guy who said that there are no 1080p displays available: there are quite a few. Even if we forget about high-end LCDs from Sony and their competitors, any PC monitor capable of 1920x1080 can do 1080p just fine. Dell's 2407 is one such monitor for example, with native 1080p and HDCP support. Goes for much less than 1000US as well.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:55 pm

Its probably not that important but 1080p displays are pointless right now. Most HD content is 720p or 1080i and most displays are x720.. Which means anything above or below that needs to be scaled.

Which is just more BS really. SDTV was always 480i.. HD is 540p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

Vexorg · Post by **Vexorg** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:48 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:SDTV was always 480i.. HD is 540p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

Aren't 540p and 1080i basically the same thing? And there are actually quite a few 1080p capable displays out there, but my understanding is that the standards for 1080p haven't quite been worked out yet, and even after they are it's going to be quite a while before anyone broadcasts in anything but 1080i.

Here's an article I saw just last week that provides a good overview of where 1080p is right now, and why you probably shouldn't bother with it yet:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/reality.html

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:27 am

This quote below from the CNet review that Specineff linked pretty much cinches a "no purchase" from me for the foreseeable future:

Thanks to an overzealous copy-protection scheme enforced by content holders (read: movie studios), forthcoming next-generation optical disc players, including Blu-ray and HD-DVD models, will give studios the option to hobble the resolution of the players' analog outputs.

Other impressions so far on the video quality have been underwhelming.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:29 am

It seems all the already-existing sets and players will be the greatest enemies to HDDVD and BR. Joe Consumer is going to think just as someone said above: why bother to buy the same movies again, if they look fine already?

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:34 am

I'm definitely waiting for the PS3. From what I've read so far BR is a cut above.

MSZ · Post by **MSZ** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:22 am

Specineff wrote:It seems all the already-existing sets and players will be the greatest enemies to HDDVD and BR. Joe Consumer is going to think just as someone said above: why bother to buy the same movies again, if they look fine already?

You are right, for average joes DVD is already the best looking format(and cheapest) available. One of my co-worker who has a 57 inches Sony CRT projection HDTV for few years now, and he refuses to buy a HD cable box. He said "I only care about DVDs and they looked crystal clear on my TV."

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:42 am

See thats the thing with HD. You can already watch the movie on DVD and see a clear picture no problem. HD just adds tons of detail which for the most part is surplus to requirements at the added cost.

If youve seen the movie, youve seen the movie.. And I agree buying the same movies everytime a new format comes out is tiresome. I slacked on DVD's because of HD, I couldn't see the point in building a collection of DVD's when I knew something better was planned down the road. But saying that HD 720p and 1080i are already being topped by 1080p.. So if you go out and buy the movies on HD-DVD, your likely going to see newer better versions in less than 2 years on BR.

Fost · Post by **Fost** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:09 am

HD-DVD has one advantage in being backwards compatible (Am I right here? the first 2 layers are a standard DVD??? so an HD-DVD disc will work in an old player?). If the studios started making all new releases HD-DVD, and kept the prices the same, then they'd have automatic adoption of the format.

Seems obvious to me, but I guess the studios would lose some money in the short term while HD-DVD manufacturing costs are higher.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:34 pm

HD-DVD's will not work in an old DVD player.

Both BR and HD-DVD players play DVD's. BR players will likely have DVD compatibility hacked off sometime in the future as the standard does not say it has to support DVD.