Super Nt vs original SNES+Framemeister

[Revolver Ocelot]

I missed the 16 bit era completely, was only a Gameboy user back then. But now I want to experience the SNES und the Mega drive myself. I want to start with the SNES and get the Mega Drive later in the year. I am a fan of original hardware, so pc emulation or the SNES mini is out of the question.

I only have two options suitable for me Either buying the Super nt, or just get a orginal SNES and use it along with my Framemeister.

The original SNES would be the more economical variant, even when including the needed RGB cable into the equation. The Super NT would be more on the expensive side.

What do you guys think, is the Super NT worth the extra price or is the image quality of the SNES with the Framemeister good enough for a 16 bit noob like myself. I have no nostalgia for this machines because I have never used them so I would not notice any inconsistencies in the graphics.

At the moment I am more pro original SNES because orginal hardware always has a special appeal to me, and I can maybe also bypass some compability issues. Not that I have heard of it yet but It cannot be outruled that some games might not work.

What do you guys think. Is the original SNES the right way or shall I go with the Super Nt and pay the extra money because it is totally worth it?

[skum]

If you don't have any affection towards the original hardware, by looks, and you're gonna play on LCD anyway, then I would definitely recommend the Super Nt. It's really a nice product, it plays and feels really good and it's how I would Imagine the SNES to be working had it been released today.

[fernan1234]

Original (ideally, mini or Jr with RGB output restored) + OSSC

[H6rdc0re]

Why not both!?

I like SNES Jr + OSSC running at line 5x (1920x1200p) with 100% normal scanlines. Absolutely fantastic. My Super NT running fill the screen custom resolution is also pretty awesome. Same can be said for Genesis + OSSC vs Mega SG.

[bigbadboaz]

As "a fan of original hardware" a real SNES is the only answer. The Super Nt has been very well received but if you truly prioritize the original experience, well.. the Super Nt isn't it.

[evil_ash_xero]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the FM add 2 frames of lag? That would make the NT superior right there. It has a good picture. I have problems with the programmer never listening to anyone half the time, but it's a nice little system.

[Galgomite]

Super NT is a great experience. But I’d urge anyone to at least consider the MiSTer, which is very easy to use. And while it runs ROMs only, it also runs most of the expansion chips (like FX) and does analogue out when you want it.

[it290]

I have a modded SNESjr., a Super NT, an OSSC and a Framemeister. Out of the three setups this enables, the Super NT is my preference, followed by the OSSC, followed by the Framemeister—the Super NT is the most convenient overall and has great picture quality that is easy to tweak. Of course, using a real SNES is more authentic (although I have to say the differences I've noticed are generally very minute, much smaller than the more noticeable audio differences between the Mega SG + real hardware), and gives you the option of hooking up to a CRT if you want to.

One thing you haven't mentioned is what games you're looking to play. Assuming you're starting from scratch in terms of carts, and depending on what you want to play, you might want to consider the Super NT just for the jailbreak firmware—OTOH if you go the SD2SNES + SNES route, you can play basically everything and will still probably come in a bit under the price of a Super NT.

If you're looking to run original carts only then I think an original unit is probably a no brainer from a cost perspective.

[H6rdc0re]

I have a modded SNESjr., a Super NT, an OSSC and a Framemeister. Out of the three setups this enables, the Super NT is my preference, followed by the OSSC, followed by the Framemeister—the Super NT is the most convenient overall and has great picture quality that is easy to tweak. Of course, using a real SNES is more authentic (although I have to say the differences I've noticed are generally very minute, much smaller than the more noticeable audio differences between the Mega SG + real hardware), and gives you the option of hooking up to a CRT if you want to.

One thing you haven't mentioned is what games you're looking to play. Assuming you're starting from scratch in terms of carts, and depending on what you want to play, you might want to consider the Super NT just for the jailbreak firmware—OTOH if you go the SD2SNES + SNES route, you can play basically everything and will still probably come in a bit under the price of a Super NT.

If you're looking to run original carts only then I think an original unit is probably a no brainer from a cost perspective.

Try SNES Jr with the OSSC running line 5x optimized mode (1920x1200P) with 100% normal scanlines.

[it290]

Try SNES Jr with the OSSC running line 5x optimized mode (1920x1200P) with 100% normal scanlines.

I always use the 5x mode on both OSSC and Super NT — usually don't like scanlines that heavy though. Granted the OSSC has better scanlines in 1080P (although I think that was recently addressed in an NT firmware that I haven't installed yet). The differences are rather miniscule when set up that way and certainly neither one is something to complain about, but the NT's digital signal just has a slight extra bit of crispness (which may not be to everyone's taste).

[Austin]

I already have a Framemeister and SNES with a RGB cable, but ended up buying a Super NT anyway. I wasn't satisfied with the softer image my SNES puts out versus, say, my Genesis. Was it worth it? Well, let's just say my actual SNES is back in its box and I don't foresee it coming out again unless I get the random urge to play it on a CRT.

[vol.2]

Important pieces of information missing (not clear) in your OP.

1) will you use a CRT or flat panel?

-Can't play super nt on a CRT

2) are you aware that OG equipment needs modification to output RGB, not just the cable you mentioned?

-RGB mod is an added expense, and you will have to choose the hardware revision that is going to give you a result you want. You will need to spend time researching some of the details of SNES modding.

3) what kinds of games are you playing?

-Framemiester is less than ideal for fast paced games like shooters because of frame lag. OSSC does a better job of those. Framemiester is better at actual 480i>480p upscaling for stuff like JRPGs. Lots of folks buy both to cover all bases, so that's potentially $500-$600 with cables?

[Guspaz]

1) The Super Nt can be used on a CRT providing the CRT supports DVI input or an HDMI to VGA adapter is used. The eventual Analogue DAC would also cover that scenario. The same limitations apply to the Framemeister, since it only supports HDMI/DVI output.

2) The SNES does not (with the execption of the Jr) require any modification to output RGB.

[the Goat]

1) The Super Nt can be used on a CRT providing the CRT supports DVI input or an HDMI to VGA adapter is used.

Yes you CAN convert HDMI to analog. But why would you? Using a real SNES is easier and cheaper.

The same limitations apply to the Framemeister, since it only supports HDMI/DVI output.

If you are displaying on a CRT why would you be using a Framemeister?

[Guspaz]

1) The Super Nt can be used on a CRT providing the CRT supports DVI input or an HDMI to VGA adapter is used.

Yes you CAN convert HDMI to analog. But why would you? Using a real SNES is easier and cheaper.

I was responding to the previous post that said "You can't use a Super Nt on a CRT". Yes, you can. Should you? That's not the question I was answering. There are several reasons you might want to use a Super Nt on a CRT. If it's a PC CRT, it's much cheaper/easier to get a Super Nt displayed on it than a real SNES. If it's a 15 kHz CRT, the Super Nt has some built-in stuff that a stock real SNES doesn't have out of the box, such as the built-in ROM cart, support for both PAL and NTSC games, the pack-in games, higher quality audio, cheat support, higher sprite limit, etc. Of course, getting a 480p console on a 15 kHz display is not simple, though presumably the Analogue DAC will make it cheaper/easier.

The same limitations apply to the Framemeister, since it only supports HDMI/DVI output.

If you are displaying on a CRT why would you be using a Framemeister?

The previous post stating that you can't use a Super Nt on a CRT, but since this thread is Super Nt vs SNES+Framemeister, the implication is that the Super Nt can't, but the Framemeister can. I was indicating that they're actually in the same boat. And if it's a PC CRT, then yeah, you're going to need a Framemeister or OSSC or RetroTink or some other method of upscaling the signal.

[vol.2]

The previous post stating that you can't use a Super Nt on a CRT, but since this thread is Super Nt vs SNES+Framemeister, the implication is that the Super Nt can't, but the Framemeister can. I was indicating that they're actually in the same boat. And if it's a PC CRT, then yeah, you're going to need a Framemeister or OSSC or RetroTink or some other method of upscaling the signal.

That's true. However, I was assuming that he wanted to use the thing primarily on a flat panel.

The comment I made about CRTs meant in addition to his primary purpose of using it on flat panel (which I thought was implied by the fact that both FM and Supernt are digital out only.

[Revolver Ocelot]

Important pieces of information missing (not clear) in your OP.

1) will you use a CRT or flat panel?

-Can't play super nt on a CRT

2) are you aware that OG equipment needs modification to output RGB, not just the cable you mentioned?

-RGB mod is an added expense, and you will have to choose the hardware revision that is going to give you a result you want. You will need to spend time researching some of the details of SNES modding.

3) what kinds of games are you playing?

-Framemiester is less than ideal for fast paced games like shooters because of frame lag. OSSC does a better job of those. Framemiester is better at actual 480i>480p upscaling for stuff like JRPGs. Lots of folks buy both to cover all bases, so that's potentially $500-$600 with cables?

I am just using my 4K TV for retro games which is fine with my framemeister.

I am interested in trying out many nice genres that the snes was famous for. Jump and Runs, J RPG, shoot em ups, and also some early fighting games, like street and mortal kombat.

[bigbadboaz]

I think you should reconsider the SNES Mini - and later the MD - as an option for you.

You started out as "a fan of original hardware" but frankly considering the Super Nt itself, and certainly some of the more convoluted options that have come up here, already gets away from that ideal.

The Mini's Canoe emulator is very, very good and at this point will run the majority of ROMs you might want to add to it. As someone just looking to experience this library, in my mind you'd get an indistinguishable idea of it this way, potentially with much less cost and more convenience.

We're about at the tail end right now of the time where you could still find a Mini somewhere at MSRP, and the MD will launch soon and likely be quite gettable. Something to consider.

[solo20]

like the other guy said get a mister fpga you will be able to use more cores plus hook up hdmi and a crt at the same time if you want more bang for your buck if you don't mind using roms .

[vol.2]

I think you should reconsider the SNES Mini - and later the MD - as an option for you.

Yeah, I agree. Hadn't even thought of the mini.

Probably best choice are that or the nt if you're sticking with the flat panel. The NT would be a little more authentic in that you can collect carts, and then maybe even use them for a real unit down the line.

[evil_ash_xero]

I got this from junkerhq.net.
To me, this is a deciding factor. That's just too much, especially when it's an older system (twitchy platformers and games), and newer TVs are always going to add a bit of delay on top of that.
The Nt doesn't have any delay, and has other things like filters and whatnot to make the experience more customizable.

20ms is just too much input delay to just wave away. I've always been surprised at the popularity of the Framemeister, due to this issue.
I know the firmware is up to 2.04, but I can't find if anyone has tested the input delay on that. If anyone has, that'd be great to know.

[FBX]

OG hardware + Framemeister is going to take 2nd in this race due to the FM's bad video noise issues, bad color conversion, latency, and lack of ability to allow for integer scaling on both axis (for those that like square pixels).

Super Nt is superb. Period.

[Fudoh]

I know the firmware is up to 2.04, but I can't find if anyone has tested the input delay on that. If anyone has, that'd be great to know.

latency remained unchanged at 24ms.

[Austin]

20ms is just too much input delay to just wave away. I've always been surprised at the popularity of the Framemeister, due to this issue.

It's a valid concern but in my experience the actual discernible input lag through the FM is negligible at best. Granted, for me that's at 720p paired with a fast monitor, your mileage may vary. To anyone who knows better, does 1080p scaling add extra lag? It seems to feel like it but I haven't done any real measurements. I usually leave it at 720p since it doesn't appear to make much visual difference on my screen, especially with PS2 era 480i stuff.

Regarding the popularity of the device, something to keep in mind is that the Framemeister is eight years old now. When it came out there weren't many other options for getting your older systems to look decent on HD displays, so it was naturally the device of choice for many. No SuperNT, MegaSG or AVS, and this was pre-OSSC with not many (if any) other options. Now it's 2019, we have other options and the device is showing its age.

That said, I do still think there is merit to using a FM, it just depends on the use-case scenario. It's a flexible device with lots of inputs, it's easy to use and most importantly it plays nice with various displays/capture cards. It's usually still my top recommendation for variety streamers because compatibility and reliability trumps all in that situation. For everyone else, it depends.

The OP's situation is interesting because he already has a FM. The money-conscious side of me says to just stick with an original SNES in this specific case. If $200 is just a drop in the bucket though, then yeah, by all means, get the SuperNT.

[Revolver Ocelot]

Thanks a lot for the further replies.

Concerning the Framemeister: I have often read About the delay it is supposed to have but so far I really did not notice it. Had no Problems with the type of PS1, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, Gamecube und N64 Games I play.

But I of Course the Original SNES and later the Mega drive are a different Generation. Never used such old consoles on the FM. So maybe the Problem is more apparent with 4th gen stuff.

Although I am fan of the Framemeister, i do not think that the Framemeister is the ultimate solution. I already backed the m classic for example to have another Option for using Retro consoles (Gamecube and Dreamcast) that can use HDMI .

And I am also willing to consider the super nt or maybe even reconsidering the snes mini if the Image Quality and the handling is superior to the original Hardware plus framemeister.

The OG Hardware plus Framemeister would be the cheapest solution and I think it is quite a attractive one. But if I can better results with ther Super Nt then the NT might be the better Option...

[Austin]

Yeah, if money's not an issue then go for the SuperNT, it's razor sharp. Your average SNES has sub-par RGB and through your FM it will look noticeably softer compared to the Saturn and PS1 RGB I'm assuming you currently use. I just figured it was important to address the price factor.

There are other perks to the SuperNT too, like the Jailbreak. With that you'll get basic flash cart functionality from the SD card slot. You won't have expansion chip support playing games that way so it's not a replacement for something like a SD2SNES, but it's a nice feature to have if you don't already have a flash cart.

A SNES Mini at this time won't cost much less than an actual SNES if current eBay prices are anything to go by. You still have to take a few minutes to hack it if you want to expand the library and the default built-in emulator has a lot of compatibility issues with games outside the included 20. (Can anyone vouch how well something like RetroArch handles on it? I've only stuck with the original emulator.)

[Guspaz]

Maybe 24ms of lag is by itself not super noticeable, but there are multiple steps in the input-to-photons chain that can add lag, and it all adds up.

My display has 33ms of lag. Not great, but not terrible.
The Framemeister has 24ms of lag.
8bitdo bluetooth controllers have 21ms of lag (assuming it's the same as the m30 BT).

In total that's 78ms of lag. Now you're up to almost 5 frames of lag, and I think that's starting to be noticeable.

So in my case, I went with the SNES+OSSC and Super Nt instead of the Framemeister, which add no lag. I can't do anything about the display (not at the moment anyhow), but I've swapped out my 8bitdo BT controller for an 8bitdo 2.4 GHz controller with a RaphNet classic-to-SNES adapter, which have a combined latency of 8ms of lag.

That takes me from 78ms down to 41ms. That's more than two frames of lag lopped off, now we're starting to notice it.

When budgets permit, moving to an LG OLED TV, with 14ms of lag, that gets me down to 22ms total lag. 78ms -> 22ms, that's nothing to sneeze at, but none of the individual components had all that much lag to begin with.

[bigbadboaz]

A SNES Mini at this time won't cost much less than an actual SNES if current eBay prices are anything to go by. You still have to take a few minutes to hack it if you want to expand the library and the default built-in emulator has a lot of compatibility issues with games outside the included 20. (Can anyone vouch how well something like RetroArch handles on it? I've only stuck with the original emulator.)

RA works great but consensus is that SNES9x is laggier than Canoe. The compatibility issues are resolved to a great extent by now; there are patches for many, many ROMs and a patching utility.

[fernan1234]

Nothing beats the real thing, but if we're talking about having to play on a flat panel, instead of a Super Nt anyone would be better off with a cycle-accurate software emulator, lag-reduction or compensation measures like run ahead, and 4k+ output (which beats the "sharp pixels" at 1080p of the Super Nt).

[Dochartaigh]

In total that's 78ms of lag. Now you're up to almost 5 frames of lag, and I think that's starting to be noticeable.

I still don't get this rationale (which I hear all the time, so def not picking on you in particular fyi). That's 0.078 seconds. Or roughly 8 HUNDREDTHS of a second. This is WAY faster than the average reaction time of a jet fighter pilot or Formula 1 racer for instance...so I never understand why this matters to anybody out there.