shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:28 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:59 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
I have been very happy with my Sony Bravia. However, it's been 5 years, and the 55" it has are no longer good enough. Anyone have any recommendations for a good, gaming HDTV (4k?)?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:09 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 3492
Location: Québec City
I think the new LG OLEDs(B9/C9) just came out so definitely consider those and research them, they should be on your list. They have low lag, and have HDMI 2.1 (a bit of futureproofing doesn't hurt, eh?).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:15 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
FinalBaton wrote:
I think the new LG OLEDs(B9/C9) just came out so definitely consider those and research them, they should be on your list. They have low lag, and have HDMI 2.1 (a bit of futureproofing doesn't hurt, eh?).


I am not finding any lists anywhere... maybe TOO new, haha? I want to be able to pick one of these up today, do you think they are common enough to find in the wild?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1708
Location: Denmark
The C8 was a huge success so I don’t think the new ones will be hard to find. Have the C8 myself and can’t recommend it enough.

The inputlag on the C8 was 21ms and on the C9 it’s even lower at 13ms which is absolutely excellent!

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 2250
Location: Kentucky
Windfish wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
I think the new LG OLEDs(B9/C9) just came out so definitely consider those and research them, they should be on your list. They have low lag, and have HDMI 2.1 (a bit of futureproofing doesn't hurt, eh?).


I am not finding any lists anywhere... maybe TOO new, haha? I want to be able to pick one of these up today, do you think they are common enough to find in the wild?


My local Best Buy has multiple 65" B8's and C9's available in-store right now. Don't think you'll have any trouble finding one.

To clarify on rtings' lag measurements, they correspond roughly with a Leo Bodnar on the middle square. So with the typical way people talk about input lag here, it would be even lower than 13ms.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1708
Location: Denmark
That’s true. My C8 measures 12ms with the lagtester on the OSSC. I just referred to the most commonly used method of measuring lag for easy comparison :)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6616
Location: block
^ Good reminder from bob. From most online reviews just substract roughly 8ms (for 60Hz modes) and you get the input lag stricto sensu.
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:55 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
Excellent. I will check back with you guys soon.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 6:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 20
Why do you need a low input latency TV is the pertinent question here?

Here is RTINGS.com's complete List of TVs tested. You can sort by the input lag you care about: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

I recently bought a Vizio P series (2018 model P55-F1). I chose it over the LG OLEDB8PUA because the Vizio was much more affordable, has component input (sadly it won't accept 240p), and a low latency HDMI port (10.5ms on HDMI5, which is HDMI 1.4 only. The rest are HDMI 2.0 with lag @ 15ms). Both are native 120Hz, which is probably my favorite feature. I use it primarily as a PC and retro gaming TV. The PC side of things really benefit from 120Hz (even my wireless mouse acts wired). The Retro gaming side of things has been a mixed bag in my experience.

A few words of caution if retro gaming is important to you:
If you already have a native 1080p HDTV, you should be aware that 4k will make games look worse, not better (except native 4k games/consoles). 1080p is about the highest resolution currently targeted by the Retro Gaming community. HDMI modded consoles aren't reaching 4k. Even the Analogue MegaSG tops out at 1080p. The OSSC can reach 1200p with Line quintuple mode for 240p content, but AFAIK there isn't support for 4k on the immediate horizon, for any mod. I'd love for someone to correct me if I'm wrong here, I'd welcome news of a 4k scaler for retro consoles. Currently, 4k native TVs will still scale 480p/720p/960p/1080p/1200p --> 2160p with some degree of softness, they just don't prioritize retro gaming over cheap, good enough, internal scaling. A 1080p native screen doesn't look any less sharp from normal viewing distances. Scaling doesn't have as far to go to get to 1080p, which means less damage to those hallowed sharp pixels. Moreover, many older 1080p TV's supported legacy 240p content without mishandling them as 480i, like newer TVs do, if they accept it at all. My VIZIO P55-F1 doesn't accept 240p via component at all, nor does it accept 960p or 1200p via HDMI. Emulation on my HTPC through the VIZIO shows me what 4k could look like and it's glorious! But even with lossless 1080p piped strait off my N64's CPU via the ultraHDMI mod, the upscale to 4k softens the edges. With the current state of retro gaming, a 1080p TV is the sweet spot IMO. Before it died, my 1080p 40 inch Panasonic plasma was great. I've been chasing the same level of performance since, with purportedly much better TVs. Honestly, an OLED is the only TV I'd consider from the new batch of TVs this year (for black performance). Otherwise, a top of the line plasma from 2010 ish would be my choice (if you can still get one).

Spoiler: show
It just sucks that TV's are going down this higher resolution path long before video standards have caught up. 4k Movies and games aren't even mainstream yet. Cable TV is behind too. Internet streaming is about the only way to take advantage of 4k or higher content. And yet people think higher resolution is better even though, at normal viewing distances, there is no perceivable difference. I wonder if the industry is banking on streaming services taking over physical ownership? Storage media for 4k and higher content is becoming too difficult or expensive to maintain a market based on personal ownership of physical copies. The next generation seems less interested in physical releases, instead buying virtual copies on steam, PSN, and etc. Why spend money on a physical release when you can release digitally and profit the savings? Less plastic, distribution, work...more environmentally friendly...win win, right?

I don't know about you, but I was burned by the digital side of ownership when musicmatch jukebox went under. Years later when my computer died and I tried to play my music on a new computer, the DRM refused to play the song unless I transfer the rights over to the new computer. They point me to a website that doesn't exist anymore. So I have no idea how to get them to play. Now, the only music in my library I can't play are the ones I didn't rip. After a while, I just deleted them forever. Happened again when Nintendo closed the Wii shop (or whatever it's called). A while back, I transferred all my roms over to a new Wii U, then I noticed the controller suffered from a Bluetooth defect. I decided to return it, but didn't realize I needed to transfer the games back to my wii first. I didn't like the Wii U so, I never got another. Now all my virtual console games refuse to play on the Wii and I haven't been able to find a way to get them back. Like my music library years earlier, now my virtual console games refuse to work.

A company that holds my account could go under and take all my music and games with them, or decide to obsolete my ownership and force me to re-buy everything again. Either way, copyright holders win and you loose. DRM and lack of personal ownership of physical copies is an affront to ownership in general. That is a huge deal! Never again will I trust digital purchases are true ownership. You don't own a digital purchase anymore than you do a wild animal. Enjoy the time you have with it now, fully expect it to disappear someday.


Last edited by RIP-Felix on Sun May 26, 2019 4:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:12 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1708
Location: Denmark
I don't agree with that statement. 720p is the sweet spot for 240p content, as it allows for a 3x integer scale. 1080p will cut off some of the top and bottom of the screen. That's why the NES and SNES mini ran at 720p, it just makes much more sense.
If I had either the Super Nt or the Mega Sg I would run them at 720p for that reason.

And unfortunately you can't upscale 720p to 1080p and expect good results. I've seen a few TVs that did a really decent job of this, but also a lot that didn't, where especially scanlines (if that's your thing) looked uneven and was almost unusable.

Both 720p and 1080p scales perfectly to 4k, and that's a major selling point for me. Yes, unfortunately you can't disable the slight smoothing that the upscaling causes*, but on the LG OLED the scaling is really good enough that I can't see it at all 2m away from my 55".
Also my LG C8 really isn't picky about most resolutions you feed it, meaning that all the OSSC's resolutions are fully supported. And that's huge for me :)

I assume the LG C9 works similarly well with the OSSC, but until someone has tried we can't say for sure.

*Panasonic allows (or they used to anyway) for integer scaling from 1080p on their 4k sets. It looks awesome.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 20
Quote:
1080p will cut off some of the top and bottom of the screen.

True, but it only cut's off a little more than the overscan would have on a CRT. I prefer the larger size to the detail/garbage in margins you weren't meant to see anyway.

Quote:
And unfortunately you can't upscale 720p to 1080p and expect good results. I've seen a few TVs that did a really decent job of this, but also a lot that didn't, where especially scanlines (if that's your thing) looked uneven and was almost unusable.

IMO the softness added by the TV upscaler converting 720p --> 1080p is less noticeable on a 1080p screen than it is for 1080p --> 4k on a 4k screen. 1080p is the sweet spot for me because it allows the best compromise for current and old. Not perfect for either, but not to one extreme. 720p will look nice, but at normal viewing distance 1080p will look sharper, albeit cropped due to the non integer scale. Not a problem for 720p, but no Blurays either. So there's plenty of room for preference. To each their own (720p or 1080p). Depends on what you prioritize and how far you sit from the screen.

Quote:
Both 720p and 1080p scales perfectly to 4k, and that's a major selling point for me.

Fact. It's one of the major reasons I bought a 4K.

Quote:
Yes, unfortunately you can't disable the slight smoothing that the upscaling causes*, but on the LG OLED the scaling is really good enough that I can't see it at all 2m away from my 55". Also my LG C8 really isn't picky about most resolutions you feed it, meaning that all the OSSC's resolutions are fully supported. And that's huge for me

*Panasonic allows (or they used to anyway) for integer scaling from 1080p on their 4k sets. It looks awesome.

That's something I can't speak to myself. I wrestled with getting the B8 (same as the C8, but a less powerful processor). In the end I wasn't willing to fork over more than twice the price of the VIZIO to get the LG. However, it's anal control over the aspect setting and lack of support for 240p, 960p and 1200p are real bummers. The superior blacks and pixel response time of OLED almost made it worth it. Sadly, I'm at high risk of burn in with OLED (heavy PC user with high contrast static images on screen for many hours per day). I would recommend the C9 if you can afford it and are dead set on 4k.


Last edited by RIP-Felix on Sun May 26, 2019 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 10:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 153
You all are making a lot of general statements about how tvs upscale 720p and 1080p to 4k. The possibility to do it well exists, we just get crappy implementation from the manufacturers. How good or bad it looks is on a TV by TV basis. Until we can take the TV manufacturers scaler out of the equation any example of a 4k TV doing a good or bad job upscaling 720p/1080p is specific to that model and/or manufacturer. I doubt true integer scaling will ever be a priority in consumer tvs, so we should all hope for a 4k ossc.

http://tanalin.com/en/articles/lossless-scaling/

https://youtu.be/fG8zcYLrgt8?t=1060

LG oled is also what I'd suggest. By far the best out of the high end tvs for gaming. Nothing else comes close the c9 in quality paired with low lag. My own 65" C9 is in transit to me now. I can't wait.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 10:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 3492
Location: Québec City
Gara wrote:
How good or bad it looks is on a TV by TV basis.

That is a good point, I agree with that


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 10:53 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 20
Fractional scaling performance should be a metric tested in reviews. It seems like something people would like to know. Not just the retro gaming community.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:50 am 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
Is the only difference between B9 and C9 is the ram for the OS?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:01 am 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
Also, I found a B8 for pretty cheap. For gaming, and O do not care about the OS, is that a decrease at all from the C9? Input lag, etc.?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18347
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
I have read that somebody just recently found a deal on a very low hours LG C8 in 55" for $779 (ish). I think the C9 and similar new sets introduced HDMI 2.1 variable refresh rates - although not FreeSync as some may have hoped.

CNet mostly noticed that the video processing seemed a bit better than the 2018 models. https://www.cnet.com/reviews/lg-oled65c9pua-review/

I wouldn't be worried about gaming on any of these, so long as you use them at a reasonable brightness level (less than 80).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:37 am 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
So a B8 would be just fine and a C9 is only an increase in ram, processing, etc. for the OS? Other specs are fine?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 20
No, they decreased input lag too. B8 = 21.3ms. C9 = 13.5ms, 6.8ms for 120hz if used as a PC. The C9 supports more resolutions (1440p), HDMI2.1, and more audio pass through options. The HDMI2.1 is interesting, as it should allow 4k 120hz with HDR & full chroma for PC gaming.

Comparing the B8 and C9 side by side on RTING.com: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tools/compare ... eshold=0.1


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:33 am 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 153
Windfish wrote:
So a B8 would be just fine and a C9 is only an increase in ram, processing, etc. for the OS? Other specs are fine?


The input lag is the most glaring difference. The tvs themselves are slightly improved each year. Better panel uniformity, picture options, brightness, etc. I personally would not go older than a c8 if you plan on gaming. Movie wise you'd need a learned eye to spot the differences unless side by side. I spent a premium on the c9 model just for its gaming potential. The TV will likely be obsolete by the time VRR becomes any kind of standard. I usually spend at least 5 years between upgrades so it was worth it to me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:41 am 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3087
Location: UK
I picked up a LG C9 recently and I've been very happy with it so far, although my setup is not complete since I'm waiting on furniture and various other bits. However even giving it a quick go I've noticed that

1) Scaling is excellent, it's the first TV I've seen that actually scales OSSCs 480p super thin scanlines correctly and evenly. Even if you're not interested in those it shows that the scaling engine is great for video game content.

2) No scroll stutter at all with the SNES, which DID happen on my old Samsung HDTV due to it's slightly off-spec refresh. I've not had chance to try some really problematic systems like PAL Amiga in 60hz yet though.

It will be interesting to see if eARC actually works, as I don't remember getting ARC to work even once over all the years it's been around.

Quote:
The HDMI2.1 is interesting, as it should allow 4k 120hz with HDR & full chroma for PC gaming.


Even the latest video cards on PC still only have HDMI 2.0 though. If only they'd put a DisplayPort in there too!
_________________
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:53 am 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1708
Location: Denmark
eARC has been confirmed working by HDTVtest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG8zcYLrgt8

Have you had the chance to try all resolution modes of the OSSC with the C9 yet, to confirm that they still work? :)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:08 am 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3087
Location: UK
Quote:
Have you had the chance to try all resolution modes of the OSSC with the C9 yet, to confirm that they still work? :)


Yes I have and yes they do all seem to work. I've only used 3x and 5x extensively though. 1920x1200 seems to have the wrong AR no matter what I do, but 1600x1200 works fine. 480p X2 works as well.
_________________
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:38 am 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 272
BuckoA51 wrote:
2) No scroll stutter at all with the SNES, which DID happen on my old Samsung HDTV due to it's slightly off-spec refresh. I've not had chance to try some really problematic systems like PAL Amiga in 60hz yet though.


Do you have an OSSC with the latency tester? I'm wondering if the C9 input lag increases with off-spec refresh rates/resolutions like the C7 does: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63745


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 2250
Location: Kentucky
BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
Have you had the chance to try all resolution modes of the OSSC with the C9 yet, to confirm that they still work? :)


Yes I have and yes they do all seem to work. I've only used 3x and 5x extensively though. 1920x1200 seems to have the wrong AR no matter what I do, but 1600x1200 works fine. 480p X2 works as well.


Don't suppose you could test 480ix3 (1440i) as well? This is a mode I never hear people talk about, but I would imagine looks good for some PS2 RPGs, unless the LGs have poor deinterlacing in general. Maybe practically no displays support it or it looks like crap and that's why I don't hear about it?

Also is your SNES dejittered or stock?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:12 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
Excellent! I am picking up a C9 today? Thank you all for your help!

Here's an additional question or two: are the calibration settings fine out of the box, you think? And for games, are there any settings that I should know about to turn on or off?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:25 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1708
Location: Denmark
They are pretty bad. I did a topic about how to achieve a good result without using a colormeter or more advanced equipment, on the LG C7. These settings are pretty much the same for C8 and I would expect the C9 as well, but there will be a few differences:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62338


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:29 pm 



Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 114
Konsolkongen wrote:
They are pretty bad. I did a topic about how to achieve a good result without using a colormeter or more advanced equipment, on the LG C7. These settings are pretty much the same for C8 and I would expect the C9 as well, but there will be a few differences:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62338


Excellent, between this and the RTINGS settings, I will have enough guidance, I think.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3087
Location: UK
Quote:
Do you have an OSSC with the latency tester? I'm wondering if the C9 input lag increases with off-spec refresh rates/resolutions like the C7 does: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63745


I don't, I should really sort that out.

Quote:
Don't suppose you could test 480ix3 (1440i) as well? This is a mode I never hear people talk about, but I would imagine looks good for some PS2 RPGs, unless the LGs have poor deinterlacing in general. Maybe practically no displays support it or it looks like crap and that's why I don't hear about it?


Doesn't work i'm afraid.

Quote:
Also is your SNES dejittered or stock?


Oh yeah it is dejittered.
_________________
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Need 65" TV with low input lag? Any suggestions?
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3087
Location: UK
1600x1200 50hz works with this thing.

1600x1200 PAL, that isn't even a resolution that should exist... but yep, it works here. 5x PAL gaming looks fantastic.
_________________
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], kel, Kez, naz, PauluzNL, Ruprit, SavagePencil, Syntax and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group