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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:24 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 456
GeneraLight wrote:
480i won't give you a more vibrant image. If anything, it would would give you a dimmer image due to the alternating interlaced fields blanking. 480i hiding the "jaggies" simply means it's less sharp, which makes sense since 480i resolves half the detail of 480p. The motion is also smoother on 480p than it is on 480i.


See, that's what the theory says. But that's just not what my eyes see at all! That's why I think I must be going crazy. I do invite people to make comparisons with their own eyes though rather than just go by what "should" be the case.

Also, I love Killer7. I need to play Killer8 mode again.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:03 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
480i won't give you a more vibrant image. If anything, it would would give you a dimmer image due to the alternating interlaced fields blanking. 480i hiding the "jaggies" simply means it's less sharp, which makes sense since 480i resolves half the detail of 480p. The motion is also smoother on 480p than it is on 480i.


See, that's what the theory says. But that's just not what my eyes see at all! That's why I think I must be going crazy. I do invite people to make comparisons with their own eyes though rather than just go by what "should" be the case.

Also, I love Killer7. I need to play Killer8 mode again.

I did an internal VGA mod in my Dreamcast. Installed a toggle to switch between 15 and 31kHz modes. So I can compare 480i to p with nothing more than a power cycle. I prefer 480p over i 100% of the time. Only time I use the 15kHz mode are the few games that support 240p


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:56 pm 


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The only game I've seen benefit from vertical filtering is The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.
They mistakenly used the render mode's coefficients for the depth-of-field's quarter-size framebuffer copy, and so it becomes an aliased mess in 480p.
It really benefits from a higher-order filter than just a box filter, "Force Vertical Filter: 1" is a decent compromise.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:28 pm 



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it's funny that Wind Waker is one of the games I used the most for comparisons, so that may be why.

Though just a couple of days ago I did quick comparisons again with Kirby's Air Ride, Resident Evil, Star Fox Adventures, and Skyward Sword. In all of those I still got the same impression as WW, though I doubt all of those are doing what Extremes just described.

I also felt the same way about PS2. Last game I remember comparing is valkyrie profile 2. But PS2 is another deal since so few games even support 480p out of the box, and I'm not a fan of GSM's forced modes in that system.

Dreamcast could be an entirely different beast in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:45 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:

Dreamcast could be an entirely different beast in this regard.

it's really not, I feel the same way about PS2 and use GSM wherever applicable


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:56 pm 



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Welp. Maybe it's a different strokes type of thing. Or most likely it depends on what the display used can do best. The monitor I use looks to be really damn optimized to make interlaced stuff shine. When it does 1080i it also looks out of this world, makes 720p look like garbage.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:08 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Welp. Maybe it's a different strokes type of thing. Or most likely it depends on what the display used can do best. The monitor I use looks to be really damn optimized to make interlaced stuff shine. When it does 1080i it also looks out of this world, makes 720p look like garbage.


yeah, choice of display is pretty important in the results. but, back to my original point: i still think the GC stuff looks better in 480p. i know it is currently agreed upon that 480p GC content suffers the same fate as wii content on a wii, but the are differences in the content that could explain it.
GC graphics are less complex by virtue of the hardware they were intended to run on. in 3d environments, the polygons are simpler and there are more solid blocks of contiguous colors. the graphically complex games tend to have pre rendered static backgrounds and less complex moving 3d objects. wii games (like goldeneye) take a lot more risks with the density of the detail. that would certainly make them look shittier if there wast enough bandwidth to resolve the full detail in the chosen resolution. just more to resolve.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:24 pm 



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GeneraLight wrote:
Actually, the Wiis with the best video output started coming out in late 2010, if not earlier. Anything with 40 and above has the better picture quality.

01 - Launch Wii (2006) 6 Layer Board | Bad Picture Quality, Generates A Lot of Heat and Consumes A Lot of Electricity
10 - Early Wii (2007) 6 Layer Board | Bad Picture Quality, Generates A Lot of Heat and Consumes A Lot of Electricity
20 - Mid Wii (2008) 6 Layer Board | Bad Picture Quality, Generates A Lot of Heat and Consumes A Lot of Electricity
30 - Mid Wii (2009) 6 Layer Board | Bad Picture Quality, Generates A Lot of Heat and Consumes A Lot of Electricity
40 - Late Wii (Mid 2010) 4 Layer Board | Good Picture Quality, Generates Little and Consumes Little Electricity
60 - Late Wii (Late 2010) 4 Layer Board | Good Picture Quality, Generates Little Heat and Consumes Little Electricity
K01 - Family Wii (2011) 4 Layer Board | Good Picture Quality, Generates Little Heat and Consumes Little Electricity (NO GAMECUBE SUPPORT)
K02 - Family Wii (2011) 4 Layer Board | Good Picture Quality, Generates Little Heat and Consumes Little Electricity (NO GAMECUBE SUPPORT)
Mini - Wii Mini (2012) Composite Video Only, Can't Be Hacked, No SD Card, Internet, etc. (NO GAMECUBE SUPPORT)/

What is the deciding factor regarding better picture-quality?
Is it just the gpu-die-shrink and/or board-redesign of the 40s and newer, or is depending on the AVE-chip, or both?

After spending a few hours searching for infos and pictures on which AVE-chips are used on which Wii-revisions, the situation looks like this:

Code:
AVE   | RVL-CPU- (How many reports)
------|-----------------------------
BU90  | 01 (9) - 10 (1) - 20 (1)
C8391 | 01 (1) -        - 20 (3) - 30 (1) - 40 (4) - 50 (1)
C4991 |        -        -        -        - 40 (1) - 50 (1)
BU99  |        -        -        - 30 (1) - 40 (5) -        - 60 (2) - K01(5) - K02(5)


If it's just the AVE-chip, and if BU99 is the one to look out for, buying the "best" model is a lottery.
60s are kind of rare, 50s are even rarer and might not even have BU99, and 40s can have three different AVEs.
Getting a "Late 2010" in hope for a 60 isn't reliable either, as e.g. the Red Wiis were released around that time (and in the US) they could be mostly 40s, see the table here.

Yay.

Raw data:
Spoiler: show
Code:
RVL  AVE  Source
01  BU90   Q02
01  BU90   Q02
01  BU90   Q02
01  BU90   Q01
01  BU90   Q01
01  BU90   Q01
01  BU90   Q03
01  BU90   Q08
01  BU90   Q09
01  C8391  Q04

10  BU90   Q01

20  BU90?  Q04
20  C8391  Q01
20  C8391  Q01
20  C8391  Q07

30  BU99   Q04
30  C8391  Q02

40  BU99   Q01
40  BU99   Q01
40  BU99   Q01
40  BU99   Q01
40  BU99   Q04
40  C4991  Q01
40  C8391  Q01
40  C8391  Q01
40  C8391  Q01
40  C8391  Q05

50  C4991  Q01
50  C8391  Q06

60  BU99   Q01
60  BU99   Q04

K01  BU99  Q01
K01  BU99  Q01
K01  BU99  Q01
K01  BU99  Q01
K01  BU99  Q04

K02  BU99  Q01
K02  BU99  Q01
K02  BU99  Q01
K02  BU99  Q01
K02  BU99  Q04

Q01  https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1329929#p1329929
Q02  https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/rgb-on-ntsc-wii.98/#post-411
Q03  https://assemblergames.com/threads/wii-unbrick.51789/#post-750585
Q04  https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/shanks-wii-super-thread.66/
Q05  https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-definitive-wii-trimming-guide.198/
Q06  https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/shanks-wii-super-thread.66/#post-25032
Q07  https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-exhaustive-wii-trimming-and-troubleshooting-faq.2385/#post-30973
Q08  https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Nintendo-Wii-Motherboard-Working-C-RVL-CPU-01-PAL-RVL-001-/254137473174
Q09  https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Motherboard-C-RVL-CPU-01-Nintendo-Wii-RVL-001-FAULTY-NO-DISPLAY/113710141088


Unfortunately the only way to know which AVE is used, is by taking apart the Wii completely.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:29 pm 


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hurda wrote:
60s are kind of rare, 50s are even rarer and might not even have BU99, and 40s can have three different AVEs.


Yeah, that's why I recommended a 2012 model, you can't go wrong with them and you'll know for a fact that you will get exactly what you pay for.

HOWEVER, if your plan is to get a Wii to get it modded for a WiiDual, then in that case it doesn't make a difference, anything but a white one should be fine.

You can get a CPU-60 if you buy a Mario Kart bundle and yeah these are kind of rare.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:54 pm 


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Are there any actual comparison captures available between those "bad" and "good" units?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:36 am 


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It was a configuration oversight all along.

https://github.com/ExtremsCorner/libogc-rice/commit/941d687e271fada68c359bbed98bed1fbb454448


Last edited by Extrems on Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:01 am 



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Lol, that's a problem now.
Who's going to recompile all the homebrew? :p


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:23 pm 


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Here's a before/after:

Image

Not64 was updated. Set "VideoWidth = 0" for pixel perfect.
An update for Enhanced mGBA is in the works.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:09 pm 


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And the way it is handled on disc releases is like on the left? And if so, is there loader to overwrite this setting while loading an image of the game in question?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:15 pm 


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On the left is what all versions of the Revolution SDK does. libogc also happen to use decompiled Revolution SDK code.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:21 am 



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I'm guessing this affects the Wii port of Retroarch and emulators like Madnafen. Would explain why I could never get them to look quite as sharp as the corresponding consoles.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:58 am 


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Every piece of software ever released on the Wii that supports 480p is affected.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:15 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
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hurda wrote:
What is the deciding factor regarding better picture-quality?
Is it just the gpu-die-shrink and/or board-redesign of the 40s and newer, or is depending on the AVE-chip, or both?

I'm not quite sure on that.

Quote:
After spending a few hours searching for infos and pictures on which AVE-chips are used on which Wii-revisions, the situation looks like this:

Code:
AVE   | RVL-CPU- (How many reports)
------|-----------------------------
BU90  | 01 (9) - 10 (1) - 20 (1)
C8391 | 01 (1) -        - 20 (3) - 30 (1) - 40 (4) - 50 (1)
C4991 |        -        -        -        - 40 (1) - 50 (1)
BU99  |        -        -        - 30 (1) - 40 (5) -        - 60 (2) - K01(5) - K02(5)


If it's just the AVE-chip, and if BU99 is the one to look out for, buying the "best" model is a lottery.
60s are kind of rare, 50s are even rarer and might not even have BU99, and 40s can have three different AVEs.

You're right. Not all CPU-40 Wiis use the newest BU99 AVE-chip, but most of them appear to based on that sample. So perhaps not all CPU-40 Wiis have the better picture quality after all. Regardless of whether the CPU-40 Wii uses the older C8391/C4991 AVE-chips or the newest BU99 AVE-chip, every CPU-40 Wii should be moddable with the WiiDual mod from what I've heard.

Quote:
Getting a "Late 2010" in hope for a 60 isn't reliable either, as e.g. the Red Wiis were released around that time (and in the US) they could be mostly 40s, see the table here.

The Mario 25th Anniversary Red Wii was released in North America on November 7th, 2010. I own three of them. The first one I bought myself brand new at ToysRUs in December of 2010, which has a CPU-40 motherboard. The other two I bought on eBay last year, both of which have a CPU-60 motherboard. I scoured eBay tirelessly last year, looking up and messaging what seemed like hundreds of eBay listings and sellers over the course of a few months, asking them to open up the battery cover port on the bottom to see what motherboard revision their Red Wii was. What I've noticed about the Red Wiis with a 40 board and the Red Wiis with a 60 board is the difference in serial numbers. All Red Wiis starting with LU92x seem to all have CPU-40 motherboards, and it seems to remain that way until somewhere in the upper LU95x range where CPU-60 motherboards start appearing. Once you reach a LU964 serial number, CPU-60 motherboards start appearing frequently. My Red Wii that has a 40 board starts with LU92x, while my other two Red Wiis with 60 boards start with LU965. I'd say about 90% - 95% of Red Wiis have CPU-40 motherboards, while the other 5% - 10% have CPU-60 motherboards. But because the USA Red Wii came out at the end of 2010 and can only have a CPU-40 or CPU0-60 motherboard, I believe the newest BU99 AVE-chip is used in ALL Red Wiis.

Here are the serial numbers and motherboards revision of Red Wiis from the Wii Serial Number|Motherboard Revision Database, which seems to support my claim:
Code:
RVL-CPU-40   LU92000535-2   Red   seerofvoid420
RVL-CPU-40   LU92097744-4   Red   Oaisus
RVL-CPU-40   LU92417072-8   Red   MasterNate
RVL-CPU-40   LU95117849-0   Red   Cheese
RVL-CPU-40   LU95129560-9   Red   Cheese
RVL-CPU-60   LU95223367-9   Red   Madmorda
RVL-CPU-40   LU96194436-8   Red   Oaisus
RVL-CPU-40   LU96216940-1   Red   Shank
RVL-CPU-40   LU96299904-6   Red   Cheese

Source: https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... mbers.716/

Lawfer wrote:
You can get a CPU-60 if you buy a Mario Kart bundle and yeah these are kind of rare.

I highly recommend this. I wanted to buy a Black CPU-60 Wii for my brother last Christmas and the very first Mario Kart Wii RVL-001 Black Wii Bundle that I came across on eBay had a CPU-60 motherboard. Although this bundle seems to be quite a bit expensive compared to standalone Wiis, it's definitely worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:54 am 


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rama wrote:
Lol, that's a problem now.
Who's going to recompile all the homebrew? :p

I went ahead and flagged this issue in the 240p test suite thread


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:02 am 


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So did Extrems just discover how to 'unlock' sharper Wii/GC games at 480p on the Wii? :o


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:36 am 



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Extrems wrote:

Is this patachable in all games through a cheat code?

Great find.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:07 pm 


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Re: board revisions - do we have empirical testing that shows a noticeable difference or just the usual GL parroting of "facts"?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:20 pm 



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Gunstar wrote:
So did Extrems just discover how to 'unlock' sharper Wii/GC games at 480p on the Wii? :o


I second this question. And also, would this hack need to involve the wiidual to be realised?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:27 pm 


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WiiDual isn't even hooked up to the I2C bus. It ignores all AVE-RVL configuration.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:34 pm 



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GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
You can get a CPU-60 if you buy a Mario Kart bundle and yeah these are kind of rare.

I highly recommend this. I wanted to buy a Black CPU-60 Wii for my brother last Christmas and the very first Mario Kart Wii RVL-001 Black Wii Bundle that I came across on eBay had a CPU-60 motherboard. Although this bundle seems to be quite a bit expensive compared to standalone Wiis, it's definitely worth it.

I guess, Getting any of the Late-2010-bundles with a Wimote Plus might be the best option, yes.

Judging from Amazon.de-listing-date:
Mario Anniversary - Red: 2010-10-29
Wii Sports Resort Pack - Black: 2010-11-05
Mario Kart Pack - Black: 2010-11-26
Wii Sports Resort Pack - White: 2010-11-30
Wii Fit Plus Pack: 2010-12-03
Mario Kart Pack - White: 2011-05-20


Fudoh wrote:
Are there any actual comparison captures available between those "bad" and "good" units?

These are the ones I could find:
Kokonoe
https://assemblergames.com/threads/wii- ... est.54445/
Album: https://imgur.com/a/gWh3uie

Gamecube - RVL-001 - RVL-101 - WiiU

1 Gamecube - RVL-001 - RVL-101
2 Gamecube - RVL-001 - RVL-101

-----

Sixtyfortyfive
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789
GameCube DOL-001 & Wii RVL-001 (RVL-CPU-01, most likely)

Albums:
NGC: https://imgur.com/a/qr7rZ7m
Wii: https://imgur.com/a/1JrDp6Y

Options and Video Settings

01 GCN - Wii
02 GCN - Wii

PLUGE

03 GCN - Wii
04 GCN - Wii

Color Bars

05 GCN - Wii

SMPTE Color Bars

06 GCN - Wii
07 GCN - Wii

Color Bars with Gray Scale

08 GCN - Wii

Color Bleed Check

09 GCN - Wii
10 GCN - Wii

Grid

11 GCN - Wii

Linearity

12 GCN - Wii
13 GCN - Wii
14 GCN - Wii

Gray Ramp

15 GCN - Wii

White & screens

16 GCN - Wii
17 GCN - Wii
18 GCN - Wii
19 GCN - Wii
20 GCN - Wii
21 GCN - Wii

100 IRE

22 GCN - Wii
23 GCN - Wii
24 GCN - Wii
25 GCN - Wii
26 GCN - Wii
27 GCN - Wii
28 GCN - Wii
29 GCN - Wii
30 GCN - Wii
31 GCN - Wii
32 GCN - Wii
33 GCN - Wii
34 GCN - Wii
35 GCN - Wii
36 GCN - Wii

Sharpness

37 GCN - Wii

Overscan

38 GCN - Wii
39 GCN - Wii

-----

All images packed: https://mega.nz/#!JzxH0IjY!_23ntOUIjMYE ... 1pMwPKds5Q


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:53 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
WiiDual isn't even hooked up to the I2C bus. It ignores all AVE-RVL configuration.


so, presumably, this could clear up 480p on my release wii with a soft mod?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:54 pm 


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This was only tested on RVL-CPU-01, so yes.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:39 pm 


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Extrems continues to be the GOAT. Amazing discovery.

Crop of Kokonoe's 480p captures:
Image

Based on those captures that newer (RVL-101) Wii does look a little bit better?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:07 pm 


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Quote:
Based on those captures that newer (RVL-101) Wii does look a little bit better?

indeed. But it looks more like an adjustment on the capture side (sampling rate) or let's call it a better match between the capture side and the actual output, doesn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:10 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Based on those captures that newer (RVL-101) Wii does look a little bit better?

indeed. But it looks more like an adjustment on the capture side (sampling rate) or let's call it a better match between the capture side and the actual output, doesn't it?


That's what I'm seeing, too.


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