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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:35 pm 



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480p just looks noticeably softer in comparison to me on both of these systems for some reason... Maybe it's the interlace flicker that adds a sense of greater depth and sharpness, since technically it's alternating what we call scanlines when talking about 240p, and scanlines are what gives the 240p picture that depth and sharpness that we like so much. Just my guess though.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:18 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Welcome to the 480i fan club :D For so many years people have sworn that 480p is what you should do for GC/Wii, but I think they're dead wrong about that, at least on CRTs (and projectors too it seems).

Also with the exception of a couple of pro monitors, 16:9 can use less TV lines than 4:3, which is why 4:3 will also look better/sharper. Maybe something similar goes on with your projector. Very few of these games took proper advantage of 16:9 anyway so it hardly matters.

uh are you basing this on Wii only?

because my gamecube games, through a gamecube, look amazing at 480p on a CRT


completely agree with this. progressive mode gamecube games look better in 480p with my wii component cables played on my progressive scan CRT and on my projector than they do over 480i from either an OG gamecube or a wii in 480i mode. i don't have GC component cables, so i can't test that

also, i like the way PS2 games like shadow of the colossus look in 480p better than in 480i. (on same display methods) Also, XBOX over 480p looks really incredible in many games.

this wii looking better in 480i is the first time i've found it to look better, and i was resistant to believing it.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:28 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
this wii looking better in 480i is the first time i've found it to look better, and i was resistant to believing it.


Yeah, I have been playing Wii games in 4:3 and 480i for many years now on a CRT broadcast monitor, though since WiiDual I started to use more games in 480p mode.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:31 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
It's analog bandwidth. There's a SDTV LPF inappropriately applied to EDTV.


not sure if i understand you correctly.
what i'm hearing is that, while wii games are bandwidth limited in 480p mode (and don't resolve complete detail), GC games played over the wii hardware require less bandwidth and run correctly in 480p.
the reasons for the difference have to do with the hardware that each game is expecting and development practices at nintendo.

is this correct?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:45 pm 


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It's the same analog and digital bandwidth. GameCube games are limited the same way through the AVE-RVL.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:35 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
It's the same analog and digital bandwidth. GameCube games are limited the same way through the AVE-RVL.


you seem to really know what you're talking about with wii/gamecube hardware, so i'm hoping you could confirm or deny the difference in video quality between wii and gamecube games played over 480p on a wii console.

or are you saying that no such difference should exist on the same hardware, and that gamecube games shouldn't fundamentally look sharper than wii games played on a wii. (all things being equal so far as horizontal scaling goes)?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:37 pm 


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There's no difference.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:44 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
you seem to really know what you're talking about with wii/gamecube hardware, so i'm hoping you could confirm or deny the difference in video quality between wii and gamecube games played over 480p on a wii console.

or are you saying that no such difference should exist on the same hardware, and that gamecube games shouldn't fundamentally look sharper than wii games played on a wii. (all things being equal so far as horizontal scaling goes)?


Don't forget the huge difference in the amount of shovelware. If that's what you mean by development practices.
Artistically and aesthetically, despite having access to more processing power, wii games overall look worse than gamecube games.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:09 pm 


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theclaw wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
you seem to really know what you're talking about with wii/gamecube hardware, so i'm hoping you could confirm or deny the difference in video quality between wii and gamecube games played over 480p on a wii console.

or are you saying that no such difference should exist on the same hardware, and that gamecube games shouldn't fundamentally look sharper than wii games played on a wii. (all things being equal so far as horizontal scaling goes)?


Don't forget the huge difference in the amount of shovelware. If that's what you mean by development practices.
Artistically and aesthetically, despite having access to more processing power, wii games overall look worse than gamecube games.


i meant more like poor game optimization as a result of either negligent programming or lack of information from nintendo


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:26 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
There's no difference.


thanks for the clear answer.

subjectively, the specific GC games i'm playing still look better than goldeneye in 480p. but i'm willing to believe that it's game-specific. perhaps it's horizontal scaling or something like that you mentioned in an earlier post


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:42 am 


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Extrems wrote:
It's analog bandwidth. There's a SDTV LPF inappropriately applied to EDTV.


Extrems wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
You have to remember that 480i and 480p are the same resolution, just presented via different means.

Unlike 480p, 480i has a vertical low-pass filter applied (deflickering). You're losing either way on a Wii.


Is this incorrect low-pass filtering applied on all Wii revisions, or does the RVL-40 handle 480p differently? People have repeatedly claimed that that revision and up have improved video output, but is there an actual basis for that? Thought you had mentioned a bandwidth problem before but that doesn't seem to be the case.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:09 am 


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Deflickering (digital, vertical low-pass filter) in 480i isn't incorrect, is completely intentional, and applies to 99% of GC/Wii software.

A SDTV (analog, horizontal) low-pass filter applied to EDTV is incorrect, and the later Wii revisions fix this (allegedly).

A SDTV LPF applied to EDTV roughly halves the horizontal resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:43 am 


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Extrems wrote:
Deflickering (digital, vertical low-pass filter) in 480i isn't incorrect, is completely intentional, and applies to 99% of GC/Wii software.


and you also said that this deflickering in 480i was a "lose" (or it's bad in other words).
so it's intentional, but it makes it look worse?

why would Nintendo do that?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:11 am 


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It's simple: So you don't get flickering with fine vertical detail. Bob deinterlacing in particular is unbearable to look at without it.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. This is standard best practices in video in general.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:21 am 



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In other words you may only "lose" with the Wii if you do 480p. And for some people you lose if you don't do 480p.

I got curious and checked out the digital output of the WiiDual going from HDMI to HDFury3 to Extron rxi to BVM. I have some thoughts about the supposed superiority of 480p over 480i for GC games. I may try to capture some footage and pictures to prove the point.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:42 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
In other words you may only "lose" with the Wii if you do 480p. And for some people you lose if you don't do 480p.

I got curious and checked out the digital output of the WiiDual going from HDMI to HDFury3 to Extron rxi to BVM. I have some thoughts about the supposed superiority of 480p over 480i for GC games. I may try to capture some footage and pictures to prove the point.


i was specifically responding to the comment made by Etrems:

"Unlike 480p, 480i has a vertical low-pass filter applied (deflickering). You're losing either way on a Wii."

So it's lose-lose. A lose is a "bad thing." That's what is means, right?

Are you, fernan, saying that he means 480i with lpf is a bad only when trying to convert it to 480p?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:31 am 



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His laconic style can be hard to figure out sometimes :lol: But yeah I would imagine it's only bad when trying to convert it to progressive given Nintendo's implementation. But then again, I say you don't want to do progressive even with a better implementation.

With the HDMI output I think I saw 480p GC/Wii look the best I've ever seen it. The sharpness gap definitely shrunk. But I'm still never going back to it. One word: jaggies. On both 3D and 2D objects, 480p really brings out the jaggies in all their step-laddery glory. I can see why Nintendo would want to soften the progressive picture. And that's not all, other artifacts of the (by today's standards) low resolution graphical elements of GC/Wii games are brought out more, to undesirable effect.

The only argument for it really is if you're using a flat panel with shitty deinterlacing, or maybe if you're one of those people really sensitive to interlace flicker on a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:46 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
His laconic style can be hard to figure out sometimes :lol: But yeah I would imagine it's only bad when trying to convert it to progressive given Nintendo's implementation. But then again, I say you don't want to do progressive even with a better implementation.

With the HDMI output I think I saw 480p GC/Wii look the best I've ever seen it. The sharpness gap definitely shrunk. But I'm still never going back to it. One word: jaggies. On both 3D and 2D objects, 480p really brings out the jaggies in all their step-laddery glory. I can see why Nintendo would want to soften the progressive picture. And that's not all, other artifacts of the (by today's standards) low resolution graphical elements of GC/Wii games are brought out more, to undesirable effect.

The only argument for it really is if you're using a flat panel with shitty deinterlacing, or maybe if you're one of those people really sensitive to interlace flicker on a CRT.

or if just maybe you want your video output chain to draw the contents of the frame buffer faithfully and accurately onto the display, jaggies and all


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:47 pm 


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If you want a soft picture, there's "Force Vertical Filter: 2" in Swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:49 pm 



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True, that can be a kind of taste. For me those kinds of things were meant by the devs themselves to be hidden/filtered away to a healthy extent. But hey, some people also like their Mega Drive/Genesis sound emulation with no low pass filter, or their upscaled 15kHz video with no simulated double strike for that raw pixelated goodness.

Extrems wrote:
If you want a soft picture, there's "Force Vertical Filter: 2" in Swiss.


Interesting. I'll give this a try out of curiosity, but then again there's still that other option to preserve both sharpness and diminish the appearance of jaggies and other artifacts :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm 


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It's the same filter used for 480i.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:59 pm 



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Though without the benefit of alternating fields at the same time, the benefit of that filter may not be as advantageous.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:04 pm 


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Temporal aliasing is a benefit? I... I don't even know anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:46 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Temporal aliasing is a benefit? I... I don't even know anymore.


lol.

i prefer the jaggies to the filter if it makes you feel any better


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:00 pm 



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I'm not sure anymore what we're talking about either :lol:

Out of curiosity, Extrems, what kind of display do you use for video evaluation?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:45 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Temporal aliasing is a benefit? I... I don't even know anymore.

lol


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:11 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I'm not sure anymore what we're talking about either :lol:

Out of curiosity, Extrems, what kind of display do you use for video evaluation?


The short version is that Nintendo did something wrong when designing the Wii.
The Gamecube component cable looks how it should've all along.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:55 pm 



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theclaw wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
The short version is that Nintendo did something wrong when designing the Wii.
The Gamecube component cable looks how it should've all along.


It's been too long since I did comparisons using a GC with component cables. But what I think I understand is that the only difference for GC games between GC component and Wii component is that 480p looks better on GC component, but 480i should look the same across all of them. I have recently done comparisons using a WiiDual though, which uses GC-Video and thus supposedly has the same quality as GC component.

Invariably, either through component, RGB, or HDMI, to my eyes 480i simply yields a sharper and more vibrant picture, with less noticeable jaggies, than 480p. So it's better in every way, it doesn't even seem like a choice. Every aspect is better on the former. This makes me think that I'm crazy since everyone else swears by 480p being the best choice either in GC or Wii, but that's just not what I see. This may depend on the display though, which is why I was wondering what someone like Extrems uses. I do recall when I used a Sony WEGA back in the late 2000s I used to think 480p on the Wii was the bee's knees after I got component cables for it. But now I see the opposite when comparing on a D24 BVM or an OSSC+OLED.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:47 am 


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Well, if you must know...
Spoiler: show
Image


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:20 am 



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fernan1234 wrote:
theclaw wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
The short version is that Nintendo did something wrong when designing the Wii.
The Gamecube component cable looks how it should've all along.


It's been too long since I did comparisons using a GC with component cables. But what I think I understand is that the only difference for GC games between GC component and Wii component is that 480p looks better on GC component, but 480i should look the same across all of them. I have recently done comparisons using a WiiDual though, which uses GC-Video and thus supposedly has the same quality as GC component.

Invariably, either through component, RGB, or HDMI, to my eyes 480i simply yields a sharper and more vibrant picture, with less noticeable jaggies, than 480p. So it's better in every way, it doesn't even seem like a choice. Every aspect is better on the former. This makes me think that I'm crazy since everyone else swears by 480p being the best choice either in GC or Wii, but that's just not what I see. This may depend on the display though, which is why I was wondering what someone like Extrems uses. I do recall when I used a Sony WEGA back in the late 2000s I used to think 480p on the Wii was the bee's knees after I got component cables for it. But now I see the opposite when comparing on a D24 BVM or an OSSC+OLED.

480i won't give you a more vibrant image. If anything, it would would give you a dimmer image due to the alternating interlaced fields blanking. 480i hiding the "jaggies" simply means it's less sharp, which makes sense since 480i resolves half the detail of 480p. The motion is also smoother on 480p than it is on 480i.


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