6th gen 480p WIDESCREEN, and how to use on multiformat CRT?

[Dochartaigh]

I picked up my first multiformat 16:9 widescreen CRT a couple weeks ago, and I'm having a hard time trying to properly calibrate my CRT's geometry for use with widescreen 16:9 480p content on mostly 6th gen consoles (along with a little bit of 720p off the Xbox 360). In the past I've used the 240p Test Suite to calibrate my CRT's so every 240p console looks decent on them. None of them are absolutely perfect for every console in terms of the size and centering of the image, but I have a nice happy medium where every 240p console looks decent at least. I can't figure out how to do that when I'm using 480p widescreen. I'm getting weird stuff going on in the margins, and consoles are drastically different from each other with their size and centering on their own flavor of 480p.

My problem (taking an educated guess here) might be how different 480p systems output a (maybe) slightly different 480p signal, for both 4:3 480p content, and if the game allows it 480p 16:9 widescreen (which may or may not be anamorphic 480p). Since several of the consoles are also run through an Extron RGB 203 Rxi (to merge RGBHV/VGA to RGBS), and the Extron RGB has centering controls (but NO middle-ground stop point, so I can't tell what the normal unaltered centering point is when it's run through either of my Extron RGB's), it seems like this is probably adding to the problem as well.




The 480p consoles I'm running are:

DC (Toro RGBHV > Extron RGB w/ SERR dipswitch on*)
PS2 (RGsB through SCART)
GC (played on Wii with component > Component to RGBS box > Extron RGB w/ SERR dipswitch on)
OG Xbox (Frozen RGBHV cable with RGBC CSYNC turned on)
Wii (component > Component to RGBS box)
Xbox 360 (VGA cable)

*for the SERR dipswitch - I think this is the one, I always confuse these - it gets rid of the skew on the top of the image for the BVM; the other Extron RGB has DDSP turned on as well.




Widescreen capable CRT Monitors I'm using:

Sony PVM-20L5 multiformat 240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i (no 16:9 mask, probably just 4:3 480p)
Sony BVM-D20F1U multiformat 240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i (has a 4:3 and 16:9 mask)
Panasonic DT-M3050W multiformat 240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i, widescreen 30" CRT




So my first problem is even getting widescreen 480p to work on the games/consoles themselves. Many 6th gen games aren't widescreen to begin with, some of them can be hex edited/patched to enable proper widescreen, but not all of them though. The majority of my 480p testing so far has been done with the original Xbox. Here's a list of which games are in widescreen 480p, including which ones I could hex edit to become widescreen in 480p:



5 out of 27 games can't do widescreen on the OG Xbox, and no mods are available for those either. For the other systems (DC, PS2, GC on Wii, Wii, and Xbox 360), I haven't even started researching their widescreen game compatibility. What do people do for these systems when trying to play games in widescreen? Can anybody knowledgeable about this chime in? DC I believe has some hex edits for widescreen, right? How about GC when played on a Wii (I don't have component cables or a mod for my actual GC) – are most of the games 480p widescreen? PS2 has a very small selection of 480p games so not too worried about that one quite yet. For Wii, are all actual Wii games in 480p widescreen? Xbox 360 I'm mostly playing the Cave shooters in 480p 4:3, in TATE (then my only tate CRT is a 20M4 which is 240p/480i, which I do downscale that 480p to 240p on that), but I have been trying a few games in 720p widescreen on the 360 (the only console I'll be using 720p from most likely).

For settings on the console, do the other systems have a widescreen setting in the menu I have to find and turn on (I know some games also have special key presses to enable progressive scan)? On my OG Xbox, I know that has a widescreen setting I turn on in the original Xbox dashboard. I know Wii has that setting as well if my memory serves, but haven't stumbled across anything like that for the other systems...




Next, I'm trying to figure out exactly what flavor of 480p each of these consoles is outputting. Again, I could be totally wrong about this but that's why I made this topic... on DC for example, which was mostly meant to be played on a computer CRT monitor with it's VGA out cable, that would be what we call 'regular' 4:3 VGA meaning 640x480 progressive, right? If the DC also has some widescreen games (and/or games which can be hacked to widescreen perhaps?), is that going to change the resolution to an actual 480p widescreen pixel size which Wikipedia says could be 888×480p (1.85:1), or 854×480p or 848x480p (16:9)? What about 720x480p (this is/was the EDTV standard for 480p, right? with 640 'active' pixels or whatever)? This same question also goes for each of the other consoles I'm trying to run. What resolution does each system output for widescreen? Can one system, on two different games, output a slightly different type of 480p widescreen depending on what the games programming was set to output?

I also have confusion about anamorphic widescreen, and which systems use this. I know this was popular for DVD players back in the day, and also for many 480p consoles I thought. That's essentially outputting a regular 4:3 ratio 480p signal, which the TV then stretches to even-more-non-square pixels, which makes it widescreen (AND I believe the game itself is programmed to take advantage of this so a square box looks perfectly square when the console is set to this 16:9 mode, for example)?




How do people calibrate their displays for each of these signal types? I haven't found a game with a test grid yet, so depending on the console they seem to be off from one another (off center, or too tall, and/or not wide enough, etc.). I usually calibrate all my 240p consoles with the 240p Test Suite. But the only console with something like that for 480p is the DC, which does have the 240p Test Suite (which can also run that program in 480p), but I think that lacks anything to test widescreen 480p with (IF the DC can even output 480p widescreen for games...which again, I still need to research). The rest of the consoles I don't have any program like that to use. The closest is how my default XBMC4Gamers dashboard on the OG Xbox has a centering and scale feature built into the dashboard (it's menu runs in 480p widescreen), but as soon as I launch an actual game it's scaled and centered differently than that dashboard is. There's lots of funky stuff that goes on in the outside margins of games, which is why I'm trying to get to a happy medium for 480p content by finding how to find that sweet-spot in the size and centering of the CRT, exactly like how I do that for 240p systems (which thankfully have their own 240p/480i size/centering saved on a separate memory bank of each monitor - so I can adjust geometry for 240p/480i and 480p totally separately).

For how to test these 480p widescreen consoles and their geometry on my CRT's, I bought an Extron VTG 300 video test generator, which mainly will be used as a 4xAA battery powered portable CRT tester (so I don't have to lug a console with 240p test suite and several types of cables with it to test monitors off Craigslist or whatnot), but I thought I could try to use that to help with this endeavor as well. Again however, the problem seems to be that there's ALL sorts of different 480p widescreen resolutions I can choose from, and with no matching widescreen test grid program for any of these consoles, I don't know how to match them up to each other to get proper centering (which will work decently on ALL of these consoles...again, just like I have 240p content setup). Likewise I also don't even know what flavor of 480p each of these consoles output to be able to use the Extron tester to try to match for that console's output resolution. Here's the resolutions I can choose from:



720x480 (think this is actually 4:3?), 848x480, and 852x480 (think these are true widescreen 480p resolutions?). If the 720x480 is true 480p (and uses 640? pixels for the width? like the EDTV standard....I think?), would I also use that for the 480p anamorphic content as well (just with the 16:9 button activated on these monitors so it knows to stretch that content to widescreen)?




Last, how do people do the settings on their CRT's? Am I alone with these problems? I know multiformat widescreen CRT's are rare but there's still tons of people out there with D24 and D32's who are all about using older consoles on them, presumably in widescreen. I've noticed even some of the OG Xbox games which are Xbox One compatible, even those have problems with funky things showing up in the margins of my modern flatscreens (think SSX 3 has this right on the initial menus a little bit).

Right now my 20L5 and D20F1U have a separate geometry bank setting for 480p (for height, width, and centering). This is saved separately from the 240p/480i geometry setting. I believe if the signal is around 480p, no matter if it's 720 or 848 or 852 wide, or a 4:3 or 16:9 signal, or a true widescreen 480p signal or an anamorphic 480p signal, the same geometry setting is used for size and centering of anything 480p-ish. It might have two separate setting banks actually: one for 4:3 480p and another for 16:9 480p (not positive on this). Then there's also channel settings I can save on the BVM (which includes being able to save how far you shift the image left or right, which can be saved on a per-channel basis – including saving if the signal is 4:3 or 16:9 as well).

My Panasonic multiformat, my only true widescreen CRT, is the one which is a little different in how it saves it's geometry setting. It does the same thing the Sony's can do, BUT it can also save that on a per-input-type basis. I.e. the 480p setting saved for YPbPr 480p going to the Pannasonic, is a different geometry setting than 480p via RGBHV for example (those are saved in two separate 'banks' of memory and are recalled when it gets that same signal type again). Complicating matters, the Panasonic can also sync directly to some of these consoles, without having to be routed through devices like an Extron RGB (which can de-center the image too, FYI) for merging sync -- this is because the Panasonic can take RGBHV natively, where the Sony's only take RGBS and have to be run through the Extron RGB for that merging of the RGBHV sync to RGBS. What also complicates matters is if one system is outputting 720x480, and another is doing 852x480 or whatever, --on the SAME connection type even, like both are outputting RGBS natively--, because those signal types are far enough apart (with I guess the refresh rate or whatnot?) that the Panasonic can tell they're separate devices from each other, those geometry settings will be saved separately from each other, in their own (two) banks of memory/geometry presets. So needless to say the Panasonic might be the most flexible with saving the actual per-console geometry settings on, with this separate saving ability, but it's still driving me nuts with trying to center all these different signal types on this monitor in particular (even when I feed it the same signal as the Sony's, run through those devices, it's still off).


To end, sorry for the long post – all this 480p 4:3/16:9 anamorphic-or-not stuff is simply confusing to me and google has failed me from finding out how each consoles outputs it's 480p widescreen content, and likewise how to setup my monitors for these widescreen signals.

[Harrumph]

All consoles (afaik) output EDTV style 480p ie 720x480, though actual horizontal active width (actual graphical content) may still vary from 640-720 (regardless if meant to be displayed at 4:3 or 16:9). I would venture to say that those actually aimed at widescreen will have minimum ~680 active width, and most commonly 704.* The rest would then be considered overscan.

The 848/852x480 would only ever be used PCs, outputting ~16:9 with square pixels. Quite a rare format tbh.

Edit: regarding your actual question on calibration I’m afraid I’m not knowledgeble enough. Pretty sure compromises will need to be made though, as usual for CRTs.
*Edit 2: I made a confusing statement there, see my post further down for clarification.

[Dochartaigh]

All consoles (afaik) output EDTV style 480p ie 720x480, though actual horizontal active width (actual graphical content) may still vary from 640-720 (regardless if meant to be displayed at 4:3 or 16:9). I would venture to say that those actually aimed at widescreen will have minimum ~680 active width, and most commonly 704. The rest would then be considered overscan.

So everything is 720x480, with sometimes a smaller 'actual horizontal active width'? That's still a pretty big range if the width can go from 640 all the way to 720. No way to tell which each console outputs? And it seems like it might even vary by the exact game and how it's programmed too, right? Even if that game is played on the same system as another game, that other game might use a different width? If it's that drastic of a difference, how did old consumer HD CRT's compensate for this? A LOT of content could be lost in the overscan area (and/or having things pillarboxed) depending on how it handles things like this.

Do you know if all 480p widescreen is anamorphic widescreen then? So those same ~720x480 pixels just get stretched left-to-right by the monitor itself so it's 16:9 widescreen?

I think my first step is to find a game, or program which will run like a game does from an image/ISO or whatnot, for every system so I can get a test grid up on screen. I might have to even make a test grid graphic myself in Photoshop, then get that JPG (or whatever image format). Problem is...how wide do I make the graphic if (possibly) different systems, and even different games themselves, could be at a slightly different width?

On a related note, is there any device I have which can give me the exact pixel height and width of the incoming signal? That could help me figure out the above. I have Extron RGB's which can give me the horizontal and vertical refresh rate, my Extron VSC 700 and 900 does similar, even my Panasonic CRT gives me this info as well. I can also get the same signal to an OSSC, Framemeister XRGB-mini, or an Extron DSC 301 HD - think that would help?

[Fudoh]

how did old consumer HD CRT's compensate for this? A LOT of content could be lost in the overscan area

that's right. 10% was a common setting for the overscan area.

Do you know if all 480p widescreen is anamorphic widescreen then?

yes.

So those same ~720x480 pixels just get stretched left-to-right by the monitor itself so it's 16:9 widescreen?

yes, that's the point of anamorphic output.

On a related note, is there any device I have which can give me the exact pixel height and width of the incoming signal?

no. You're talking analogue signals. That means you get a "480p" info. That's it.

[muckyfingers]

Have you thought about using an EDTV (480p) plasma? They’re wonderful for 480p material and line doubled 240p stuff, though straight 240p looks decent as well. It will also downscale 720p and 1080i material. I’d recommend the Panasonic TH-42PWD7, or the 37” variant.

[gray117]

If it's that drastic of a difference, how did old consumer HD CRT's compensate for this?

Some HD sets started to try and include some kind of digital control/compensation... but broadly they didn't. Different frequencies on the same resolution can cause different display sizes too. On monitors where you were frequently changing resolution/inputs you'd typically have exposed controls to vary width/height/position every time you changed (e.g. pc crt monitors). SD/HD consumer tvs just generally had a large overscan and a squash/zoom remote function. Most people just put up with that. On top of that, whilst we take it for granted now, not all crt pixels used to be physical 1:1 squares... some were horizontal rectangles.... This partly why screen fine-ness (aka resolution) used to only really be described on tvs in terms of vertical (scan) lines.

Just revel in the glorious cps2 resolution: 384x224 intended for 4:3!

Think of a crt less in terms of pixels/photoshop and more like a camera/projector Resolution doesn't matter. Only intended aspect ratio does. Stretch to fill screen, with/without letterboxing/jail bars if you're obeying a ratio.

You'll still find the concept of a 'safe frame' in contemporary production these days to help deal with ratio/zoom management, back in the day this was literally the understood likely overscan (This was never a firm %, just an understanding). You will likely today still see a noticeable horizontal spacing on any logos/score boards on broadcast tv since they'll compensating for how some widescreens(/settings) deal with ratio correction (it used to be super noticeable when they were compensating for 4:3 screens - afaik that's not really done these days). (There's a buffer vertically too - just not as noticeable since this is still applied as a % and the wider aspect in widescreen makes this more noticeable horizontally, whereas vertically it just looks like a reasonable off edge placement.)

In the ps2 era when we were muddling around with a lot of this you started to see adjustable screen options + ui for these kind of reasons as resolutions+signals started to really vary - who cares if someone's playing the game at the right ratio - just so long as they can see their health bars.

Upshot: you're not likely to find a one size fits all solution for your setup. The future now does have it's benefits.

[maxtherabbit]

All consoles (afaik) output EDTV style 480p ie 720x480, though actual horizontal active width (actual graphical content) may still vary from 640-720 (regardless if meant to be displayed at 4:3 or 16:9). I would venture to say that those actually aimed at widescreen will have minimum ~680 active width, and most commonly 704. The rest would then be considered overscan.

So everything is 720x480, with sometimes a smaller 'actual horizontal active width'? That's still a pretty big range if the width can go from 640 all the way to 720. No way to tell which each console outputs? And it seems like it might even vary by the exact game and how it's programmed too, right? Even if that game is played on the same system as another game, that other game might use a different width? If it's that drastic of a difference, how did old consumer HD CRT's compensate for this? A LOT of content could be lost in the overscan area (and/or having things pillarboxed) depending on how it handles things like this.

DC and PS2 both output a 480p signal (ostensibly 720 active horizontal px) but only draw on the inner 640px of that frame

gamecube (IIRC) uses the entire 720, OG xbox definitely does

xbox360 uses 720 active when it's set to 480p output, but idk if using a VGA cable as opposed to component cables effects this - never had a VGA cable for a 360

[Extrems]

gamecube (IIRC) uses the entire 720

Only a select few homebrews does. See the Swiss compatibility list for games.

[Harrumph]

I usually calibrate all my 240p consoles with the 240p Test Suite. But the only console with something like that for 480p is the DC, which does have the 240p Test Suite (which can also run that program in 480p), but I think that lacks anything to test widescreen 480p with (IF the DC can even output 480p widescreen for games...which again, I still need to research). The rest of the consoles I don't have any program like that to use.

Well there is also 240p test suite for the Wii, but unfortunately, it too does not have a test grid or linearity screen for 480i/480p widescreen modes. Maybe you can petition Artemio to add those in?

Regarding what I wrote earlier, I was kinda shooting from the hip so I will clarify some aspects:

Widescreen modes for the most part do not use more active width than 4:3 modes. If a game uses 640 horizontal space in 4:3, it will likely use the same for 16:9 (but obviously pixel aspect ratio would change).
For Gamecube, only a minority of games offer widescreen mode. A few more can be forced to widescreen via Swiss.
For Wii, the absolute majority of games have widescreen mode. I cannot think of a single game I own that does not have widescreen.

My statement of "those actually aimed at widescreen will have minimum ~680 active width" is only true for Wii (all I've tested have 686 used horizontal pixels, while all GCN games have less (maximally 666)), and I've actually never encountered a game with widescreen that utilizes the full 704 px either. What I meant by 704 was that to correctly scale the content, the window that should be stretched to 16:9, is most commonly 704x480, rather than 720x480 (at least for GC/Wii).

You can check how many active pixels any game has using the OSSC and the mask feature.

[maxtherabbit]

If a game uses 640 horizontal space in 4:3, it will likely use the same for 16:9 (but obviously pixel aspect ratio would change).

That's 100% accurate on the DC and PS2 at least