Extron ONLY for h and v pos centering?

[Taiyaki]

I've never used an Extron unit before so I'm interested in gathering some info before jumping in.

My only reason in going for Extrons is because of the horizontal pos changes that occur with rgb connections. I have a dozen consoles with varying syncs (composite video, csync, luna on sync etc) as well as some component connections (and Groovymame via VGA to Component transcoder) and I only play on traditional 15khz consumer crt's.

Since I have no need for a lot of the other benefits provided by the 201 or 203 rxi units when coupled with xrgb and other devices outputting to lcd's, I was looking at those other models that have the h positioning knob such as the RGB 108, 108 plus etc.

My setup is basically
gscartsw > rgb to component encoder > crt
component switch box > crt

I unplug one for the other when swapping. This was done to avoid having the gscartsw go into another switch box and reducing the picture quality of the former.

Would those units work in my setup? My impression is that the Extron is at the end of the chain, and I would therefor have the gscartsw go into it and the component switch box go to it and just unplug one for the other when needed.

I read they add no lag, but do they change colors in any way? Anyone have other models they might recommend instead? Any opinions or experiences with Extrons to share? Any advice would be appreciated.

[nmalinoski]

My understanding is that the Extron RGB interfaces are primarily for varying multiple sync formats for RGB to one sync format, and you could very well feed it RGBS from your SCART switcher and wire its output for RGBS so that you can effectively just use the dials on the front for image positioning. Someone more knowledgeable could better say, but I believe no processing is performed on the RGB lines except for running those signals through an amp.

Do keep in mind that these RGB interfaces will need clean composite sync, so you'll either need sync regeneration turned on on your gscartsw, or you'll need a SCART->DE-15 cable with a sync stripper in the SCART head. You'll also need a BNC->SCART cable to connect the output of the RGB interface to your RGB SCART->YPbPr component converter.

Also, have you tried running the output of your RGB->YPbPr converter into your component switcher, and do you actually notice a different in image quality?

[Taiyaki]

My understanding is that the Extron RGB interfaces are primarily for varying multiple sync formats for RGB to one sync format, and you could very well feed it RGBS from your SCART switcher and wire its output for RGBS so that you can effectively just use the dials on the front for image positioning. Someone more knowledgeable could better say, but I believe no processing is performed on the RGB lines except for running those signals through an amp.

Do keep in mind that these RGB interfaces will need clean composite sync, so you'll either need sync regeneration turned on on your gscartsw, or you'll need a SCART->DE-15 cable with a sync stripper in the SCART head. You'll also need a BNC->SCART cable to connect the output of the RGB interface to your RGB SCART->YPbPr component converter.

Also, have you tried running the output of your RGB->YPbPr converter into your component switcher, and do you actually notice a different in image quality?

Thank you for that. I'll look into finding a proper BNC to Scart cable, and then I guess I need a scart to vga for the input side.

I have a first a gen or second gen gscartsw and will only be getting a new version soon so I've never used sync regeneration, by enabling it will it work on all the scart cables (such as the ones from Retro Access)?


From what I see based on looking at the back of the 108 it looks like it doesn't take audio, which potentially complicates the setup, I guess the 201 rxi is preferable in that respect. Although come to think of it I guess a simple audio extractor like the one Retro Access makes might work just as well too and simplifies the input output cables on the interface.

[nmalinoski]

From what I see based on looking at the back of the 108 it looks like it doesn't take audio, which potentially complicates the setup, I guess the 201 rxi is preferable in that respect. Although come to think of it I guess a simple audio extractor like the one Retro Access makes might work just as well too and simplifies the input output cables on the interface.

If you end up buying custom cables from somewhere like Retro Access, you should be able to get an audio breakout on your SCART->DE-15 cable, which you can then either simply route around the RGB interface and/or RGB->YPbPr converter into the display or component switcher, or you can hook it into an audio breakout on the BNC->SCART cable going into the RGB->YPbPr converter.

[Gara]

I have my setup wired for this. It can be useful but I can't really recommend it. When using an Extron RXI on some RGB sources it introduces distortion to the top of the screen. I couldn't figure out why it happens. I ended up introducing an additional 2x1 RGBHV switcher to my setup so I can switch on the fly to a clean source and to the Extron RXI. I don't know if using something other than the popular Rxi units will give you better results.

It's situationally useful. The Extron is a godsend for my Groovymame setup. No distortion there. If you still want to go for it then please document your journey and keep us updated. I'd love something that could quickly adjust the position without introducing distortion.

My initial setup was
Console RGB>gscartsw_lite>Scart to BNC (with sync stripper)>Extron Rxi>Display

Now it goes:

Clean output
Console RGB>gscartsw_lite>SB-3715 Splitter>2x1 RGBHV Switch>Extron RGBS Splitter>CRT displays

Extron output
Console RGB>gscartsw_lite>SB-3715 Splitter>Sync Strike>Extron Rxi>2x1 RGBS Switch>Extron RGBS Splitter>CRT displays

Ridiculously complicated! It was fun and educational. I'm probably lucky I didn't royally screw up the image quality with that many cables and extra equipment. I kept my runs short and used high quality cables.

[Bratwurst]

It's situationally useful. The Extron is a godsend for my Groovymame setup. No distortion there. If you still want to go for it then please document your journey and keep us updated. I'd love something that could quickly adjust the position without introducing distortion.

I may be unaware of something more elaborate at play here so do correct me if I've missed it, but can't you press the tilde key in mame to access h and v position? That's what I used when I piped the video through an Extron Emotia to get the scanlines near perfect.

[Taiyaki]

Also, have you tried running the output of your RGB->YPbPr converter into your component switcher, and do you actually notice a different in image quality?

For starters thank you for the advice on the cables, and apologies for having skipped this question last night, I must have been tired. Yes I have tried both and couldn't see any difference with the passive GE switcher I use. I assume some brightness is lost but it wasn't a noticeable difference when going back and forth (maybe would require a side by side). I don't use very long cables to go from the box to the tv so it doesn't add too much distance. Currently I run the RGB>YPbPR converter into the component switcher.

It's situationally useful. The Extron is a godsend for my Groovymame setup. No distortion there. If you still want to go for it then please document your journey and keep us updated. I'd love something that could quickly adjust the position without introducing distortion.

I may be unaware of something more elaborate at play here so do correct me if I've missed it, but can't you press the tilde key in mame to access h and v position? That's what I used when I piped the video through an Extron Emotia to get the scanlines near perfect.

I think it may introduce scaling, but then again I'm not sure either, I think moving the h and v size does but perhaps the h and v pos doesn't. Something to try out I guess.

I have my setup wired for this. It can be useful but I can't really recommend it. When using an Extron RXI on some RGB sources it introduces distortion to the top of the screen. I couldn't figure out why it happens. I ended up introducing an additional 2x1 RGBHV switcher to my setup so I can switch on the fly to a clean source and to the Extron RXI. I don't know if using something other than the popular Rxi units will give you better results.

Thank you for sharing your setups and experiences with your Extron RXI! That's an extremely elaborate setup.
So out of curiosity which consoles were giving you distortions? Also what kind of scart cables were you using to connect to the gscartsw, were they all high end ones from the likes of Retro Gaming Cables Uk and Retro Access (I'm going to assume these weren't the cause though)?

[Gara]

It's situationally useful. The Extron is a godsend for my Groovymame setup. No distortion there. If you still want to go for it then please document your journey and keep us updated. I'd love something that could quickly adjust the position without introducing distortion.

I may be unaware of something more elaborate at play here so do correct me if I've missed it, but can't you press the tilde key in mame to access h and v position? That's what I used when I piped the video through an Extron Emotia to get the scanlines near perfect.

Personal preference. I recall there being something that I couldn't get right. Plus the 203 rgb rxi is ideal for my setup. It probably would have come out cheaper if I just purchased an expansion card for my Pvm but being able to quickly adjust positioning without pulling out the keyboard on arcade games is a nice luxory.

Thank you for sharing your setups and experiences with your Extron RXI! That's an extremely elaborate setup.
So out of curiosity which consoles were giving you distortions? Also what kind of scart cables were you using to connect to the gscartsw, were they all high end ones from the likes of Retro Gaming Cables Uk and Retro Access (I'm going to assume these weren't the cause though)?

Genesis is the most finicky. I think it's most consoles that are affected. Messing with the switches on the rxi helps on some. My memory is a bit off. I tried so many different ways to get it working I can't recall the worst of the bunch. If you want any specific console tested let me know. All of my cables are from retro access and are the coax upgraded versions. I tried quite a few variations in cables trying to narrow it down.

I thought it might be the LM1881 used in the sync strike and many custom cables. Someone recently confirmed the Sync Slayer which uses a LMH1980 still has the problem.

[Taiyaki]

Genesis is the most finicky. I think it's most consoles that are affected. Messing with the switches on the rxi helps on some. My memory is a bit off. I tried so many different ways to get it working I can't recall the worst of the bunch. If you want any specific console tested let me know. All of my cables are from retro access and are the coax upgraded versions. I tried quite a few variations in cables trying to narrow it down.

I thought it might be the LM1881 used in the sync strike and many custom cables. Someone recently confirmed the Sync Slayer which uses a LMH1980 still has the problem.

Thanks. Sounds like I'll be encountering the same issues then. I also use a gscartsw and likely the same cables from Retro Access (both old variety and some new coax ones).

Has anyone here ever managed to get an Extron to work on home consoles without any distortion then?

[Taiyaki]

Gara was your issue similar to this one here?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50130&start=30

Looks like the rxi models have a knob called serration, had you tried that?

[Gara]

Gara was your issue similar to this one here?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50130&start=30

Looks like the rxi models have a knob called serration, had you tried that?

It helps but doesn't solve the issue. It's a little dip switch on the back. The only thing I didn't mess around with is any internal settings the Extron unit has. Disassembling them is surprisingly difficult. The manual doesn't even document that you need to remove every DB15 port one at a time.

Pictures I took about a month ago for another discussion about the Extron 203. Source is an RGB modded SNES mini. The Extron is a bit darker but is fixed with a slight turn of the gain knob.

Clean output:

Spoiler

Extron output:

Spoiler

[Taiyaki]

Thank you for those pictures. Maybe someone else here with some Extron rxi experience can help find a solution to that video issue.

Does the issue go away in DDSP mode (based on my understand that disables the centering controls but just curious to see if that fixes it).

I notice you're using a pro monitor. Have you tried this on a consumer tube or at least a second pro monitor of a different model to verify that the problem wasn't specific to that monitor?

[Gara]

Thank you for those pictures. Maybe someone else here with some Extron rxi experience can help find a solution to that video issue.

Does the issue go away in DDSP mode (based on my understand that disables the centering controls but just curious to see if that fixes it).

I notice you're using a pro monitor. Have you tried this on a consumer tube or at least a second pro monitor of a different model to verify that the problem wasn't specific to that monitor?

Ddsp reduces the tear significantly. I played with it like that quite a while but had a bunch of problems with Genesis. Finicky sync and the extron does something odd to the colors. The tear is still an eye sore.

I tried it through a 20L5, 14L2, and a 2530. All Sony models. No change. It would be amusing it was a Sony related problem.

[Sefirosu789]

It helps but doesn't solve the issue. It's a little dip switch on the back. The only thing I didn't mess around with is any internal settings the Extron unit has. Disassembling them is surprisingly difficult. The manual doesn't even document that you need to remove every DB15 port one at a time.

Pictures I took about a month ago for another discussion about the Extron 203. Source is an RGB modded SNES mini. The Extron is a bit darker but is fixed with a slight turn of the gain knob.

Clean output:

Spoiler

Extron output:

Spoiler

Try and bring the vertical centring toggle back towards the centre.

I had the exact same distortion with one of my RXi's but horizontally to the right. I moved the horizontal centring toggle back to towards centre and the distortion was gone.

If it doesn't work it must be a sync issue or something, I guess.

[Taiyaki]

That's odd, those are pretty popular models. You'd think if the Extron had issues on them it would be better documented. There's got to be somewhere here with one of those monitors who found a solution no?

Let us know how Sefirosu789's tips worked out.

[Gara]

It helps but doesn't solve the issue. It's a little dip switch on the back. The only thing I didn't mess around with is any internal settings the Extron unit has. Disassembling them is surprisingly difficult. The manual doesn't even document that you need to remove every DB15 port one at a time.

Pictures I took about a month ago for another discussion about the Extron 203. Source is an RGB modded SNES mini. The Extron is a bit darker but is fixed with a slight turn of the gain knob.

Clean output:

Spoiler

Extron output:

Spoiler

Try and bring the vertical centring toggle back towards the centre.

I had the exact same distortion with one of my RXi's but horizontally to the right. I moved the horizontal centring toggle back to towards centre and the distortion was gone.

If it doesn't work it must be a sync issue or something, I guess.

I'm not sure what you mean by the horizontal centering toggle. On my 203 RXI I have 2 knobs for centering. The knobs have no fixed position. I'm guessing it's different on some Extron units.

I did try moving the image around to various positions to see if I could fix the issue. No change. You can cut off the top of the image and hide it. A good solution for games that have extreme overscan but many games have info up there.

[Overkill]

Do keep in mind that these RGB interfaces will need clean composite sync, so you'll either need sync regeneration turned on on your gscartsw, or you'll need a SCART->DE-15 cable with a sync stripper in the SCART head.

Does anyone knows if this: "Keene Syncblaster Cable Scart To 15 Pin HD SVGA" is what it does? It have an power supply input and says this: "This fiendishly clever cable incorporates a fully functional sync separator and amplifier providing the TTL level sync required for correct operation."

If so, this could be used as an output of a regular scart switch to the DE-15 VGA input of the Extron?

Would using already RGB Scart console cables with an sync-striper built already inside "harm" the kind of setup?

[nmalinoski]

Does anyone knows if this: "Keene Syncblaster Cable Scart To 15 Pin HD SVGA" is what it does? It have an power supply input and says this: "This fiendishly clever cable incorporates a fully functional sync separator and amplifier providing the TTL level sync required for correct operation."

If so, this could be used as an output of a regular scart switch to the DE-15 VGA input of the Extron?

Yes, that could be used.

Would using already RGB Scart console cables with an sync-striper built already inside "harm" the kind of setup?

Shouldn't cause any issues, plus you need either clean composite sync or (clean by nature) separate sync in order to use the RGB interface to begin with. If the sync separator causes any delay in sync, you should be able to use the RGB interface to center the screen.

[Taiyaki]

Gara did you try with the PS2, Dreamcast or Neo Geo MVS? Classicgamer has informed he that he runs those without a problem and has never seen that distortion on the top. If you have any of those might be worth testing to see how those run on your setup. If you still get the distortion perhaps the Extron interface is having some difficulties?

[Gara]

Gara did you try with the PS2, Dreamcast or Neo Geo MVS? Classicgamer has informed he that he runs those without a problem and has never seen that distortion on the top. If you have any of those might be worth testing to see how those run on your setup. If you still get the distortion perhaps the Extron interface is having some difficulties?

I don't have a Neo Geo but I tested the others. I stick to to my GroovyMame setup for Neo Geo.

Dreamcast via Toro Scart
480i: Distortion on the top.
480p: No distortion. There was a small wave like distortion at first but I just had to center the image and it went away.

PS2 via RGB Scart
480i: Distortion on the top.
480p: No distortion.

Do you happen to know how Classicgamer has his sytems setup? I'd be delighted to find out some part of my setup is defective. Sounds odd but it would be a relief.

[Taiyaki]

I'll send him a PM, with some luck maybe he can drop by the thread and reply directly.

[Overkill]

On my personal experience running consoles on Extron RGB (tried with 3 diferent models) allways give me that issue in the top of the image. Will it be on PVM/BVM or standard CRT TV. The only solution I found that permantly fixes the issue is turning on the DDSP switch. The image get's perfect, but as you know the horizontal/centering knob can not be used anymore. So right now I'm using less and less the extron RGB, and connect devices directly to the monitor.

[Taiyaki]

Gosh thanks for sharing. If one can't properly hook these up in ADSP to access the positioning knobs then that definitely reduces the usefulness of these, at least to my setup.

[Gunstar]

On my personal experience running consoles on Extron RGB (tried with 3 diferent models) allways give me that issue in the top of the image. Will it be on PVM/BVM or standard CRT TV. The only solution I found that permantly fixes the issue is turning on the DDSP switch. The image get's perfect, but as you know the horizontal/centering knob can not be used anymore. So right now I'm using less and less the extron RGB, and connect devices directly to the monitor.

This is my experience with the Extron RGB also. DDSP fixes the issues but then you're locked out of the positioning controls.

[Classicgamer]

I have never seen distortion from either of my Extron interfaces. The job they perform is converting once type of sync to another. They eliminate PS2 sync on green issues and allow you to connect an RGBHV pc to and RGBS monitor. I never use H or V shift with them though.

My PS2 is connected using an Ultimarc PS2 to tri-sync monitor cable. It outputs on a standard DB15 female which can be connected directly to the interface.

The PS2 outputs everything in 480i (aside from a handful of 480p games) except emulated games. So, games that were natively 240p tend to have a noticeable flicker in the 480i. This isn't an issue with the interface. It's a problem with with the game. You can use the DDSP dip switch to fix the issue but it is not needed for games that were natively 480i.

For scart consoles, I suggest a sync cleaner and something to convert sync on composite video to RGBS. I use a scart to BNC adapter off eBay with a built in sync strike. I use this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB-Eur ... SwPhdU47vv

I had nothing but problems with cheaper variants like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sync-Splitter- ... SwIqxcLb7U

[nmalinoski]

...They eliminate PS2 sync on green issues...

My PS2 is connected using an Ultimarc PS2 to tri-sync monitor cable. It outputs on a standard DB15 female which can be connected directly to the interface.

I know that cable includes a sync separator (so composite sync from composite video[/luma?] gets converted to separate sync), but does that sync separator also separate sync from RGsB? Or is it only connected on the composite sync line, effectively bypassing the sync separator when the console is outputting RGsB?

[orange808]

...They eliminate PS2 sync on green issues...

My PS2 is connected using an Ultimarc PS2 to tri-sync monitor cable. It outputs on a standard DB15 female which can be connected directly to the interface.

I know that cable includes a sync separator (so composite sync from composite video[/luma?] gets converted to separate sync), but does that sync separator also separate sync from RGsB? Or is it only connected on the composite sync line, effectively bypassing the sync separator when the console is outputting RGsB?

The cable just outputs clean combined sync when it receives sync on composite. That's all it does.

The Extron RGB unit handles the sync processing. The Extron RGB units don't handle sync on composite, so the cable makes sure combined sync sources are are clean.