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 Post subject: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
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I'm still pretty new to shmups but I'm loving Raiden on PCB lately. It feels so well designed. I usually go for newer shmups but Raiden from 1990 is just awesome. Anybody else playing a lot of this?


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:31 am 



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I find myself returning to Raiden 1 a lot. Though since I don't have any actual arcade boards, for me its Raiden DX on PS1. I've been on a big Raiden kick though for like a year now, if you haven't picked it up Raiden Fighters Aces on 360 is a must buy.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:49 am 


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The original arcade Raiden is one of my all-time favorites, shmup or not. It's a very tight package that's both challenging yet fair, and I think it's held up pretty well over the years. While I have enjoyed the rest of the series, the first game feels the most balanced to me with a fairly smooth ramp up in difficulty. It's great to see someone newer to the genre playing and enjoying it.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:25 am 


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Raiden and Raiden II/DX are terrible games, and they deserve very little of the respect they've gotten. They make numerous big and small mistakes that the Toaplan games they rip off never did, and they hate all players to an obscene degree that very few other games do. Viper Phase 1 is very similar, and is only slightly better than this sad state.

Raiden III tried to fix many of these problems and is a significantly better game for it. Raiden IV takes this and adds a few changes of its own, and while some of those changes are questionable, IV is still a significantly better game than the first two.

Raiden V substantially redesigns the core gameplay to finally get rid of all of the mistakes that have plagued this series. It is still not perfect, but it is far and away the most well-designed game in the series.

The Raiden Fighters games are really their own separate series, and were only called "Raiden" for market appeal. Unlike Raiden and Raiden II/DX, the Fighters games are very good fundamentally.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:54 am 


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Sadly, yes. Been playing it on The Raiden Project on PS1. I would never want to play the game without a high frequency of auto-fire though.

With that said, I find part IV to be the far more enjoyable game.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:55 am 


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Despatche wrote:
They make numerous big and small mistakes that the Toaplan games they rip off never did, and they hate all players to an obscene degree that very few other games do.


Can you post a list of a few of these? I'm interested in what they did wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:49 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Raiden and Raiden II/DX are terrible games, and they deserve very little of the respect they've gotten. They make numerous big and small mistakes that the Toaplan games they rip off never did, and they hate all players to an obscene degree that very few other games do. Viper Phase 1 is very similar, and is only slightly better than this sad state.

Tbh, I think the sadism is part of the charm (though I agree that said sadism is partly due to intentionally mean -- or in a few cases bad -- design), like Same! Same! Same!. At the very least, Raiden 1/2/DX have incredible visual styling that far exceeds any of the Toaplan games in that style, and that's where I think they shine: they take on the torch from Hishouzame/Kyuukyoku Tiger/Same!x3, with its own flair and style.

VP1 imo is just not good, the visuals aren't nearly as good as Raiden II, and the game design is poor conceptually, as well as being significantly less fun; the only upshot is the ridiculously good soundtrack. That's talking about old version, new version feels like they completely dropped the design on the floor and tried to pick it up... real sloppy.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:31 am 


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Despatche wrote:
They make numerous big and small mistakes that the Toaplan games they rip off never did, and they hate all players to an obscene degree that very few other games do.


Any more details? And on this:

Quote:
Raiden V substantially redesigns the core gameplay to finally get rid of all of the mistakes that have plagued this series.


Also, what do you think about -Zeal games? as some people consider them being "raiden worship" which was weird to hear for me (unlike doujin Raiden clone attempts like Wolflame)
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:18 pm 


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I keep coming back to Raiden (either 1, the version with checkpoints, or DX) because I love the visual style, but I just can't get to a place where I enjoy the gameplay. The ship, even the blue one, feels too slow to react to what's happening a lot of the time. A simple fast arc of bullets from the later bosses in Raiden 1 ends up more frustrating for me than anything in Garegga or ddp.

That said, the visual style excellent, probably the best out of any shmup imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:45 pm 


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It's been a while since I fired up the original Raiden, but it's one of those go-to games for me when I want to play a shmup, but can't decide what else to throw in. Despite its difficulty, I keep going back to it. It has a certain draw that I can't really quantify.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:00 pm 



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Exy wrote:
The ship, even the blue one, feels too slow to react to what's happening a lot of the time.


you are playing it completely wrong, it's a game of memorizing everything and building strategies and executing accordingly, you should always be thinking 2 steps ahead and know exactly whats next every step of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:25 pm 


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Eh

Memorising stages is even less fun than dying to sniper tanks, tbqh.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:34 pm 



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Exy wrote:
Eh

Memorising stages is even less fun than dying to sniper tanks, tbqh.


then continue to fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:13 pm 


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Ah, there's that shmups forum goodwill.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:27 pm 


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Exy wrote:
Ah, there's that shmups forum goodwill.


??? he's just saying if you don't memorize the stages in these games to some degree then you're going to die. I don't read any malice here
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:11 pm 


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You don't need to memorize every single tank, just get a good feel of their shot tempo (timing between shots), so you know when it's safe to close in on something outside your arc of fire. Definitely memorize when/where some of meaner enemies appear though.

Btw Raiden rocks.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 pm 



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I think some of the reason I like it is the single ship and what that allows the designer to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:55 pm 


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Sniper tanks, fast bullets, slow movement, and memorization focus are literally the distinctive parts of these games (hishou, kyuukyoku, same, raiden 1/2/dx). If you took any of those away it'd be way less fun IMO, they're all elements that I quite enjoy about them.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:37 pm 


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OmegaFlareX wrote:
Despatche wrote:
They make numerous big and small mistakes that the Toaplan games they rip off never did, and they hate all players to an obscene degree that very few other games do.


Can you post a list of a few of these? I'm interested in what they did wrong.

Seconding this.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 pm 


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Oh my, yes. I'm glad multiple people are interested.

Raiden has a lot of these weird errors that should not be in any game. Alone, these don't immediately sound like a huge problem, but they're not alone. There are TONS of them, and they all add up.

1. Arbitrary player side differences that always benefit P2.
2. Frame-perfect powerup cycles. You have to spawn the item at the right time and collect it at the right time every time.
3. This is on top of most powerups being placed specifically to trap the player.
4. This is on top of power level being dependent on picking up the same item repeatedly. I really don't understand this downgrade at all, Toaplan solved this shit from the start, and even Tatsujin Ou and Kyukyoku Tiger II (released after Raiden) never really made the Raiden system feel miserable.
5. Don't even get me started on how Raiden basically undid every previous attempt to actually throw the player a bone when they died.
6. Then you have the fairy rose thing being a gigantic middle finger to the player. It's not worth trying to figure it out when powerups literally stack on top of each other.
7. Also, weird and dumb version differences leading to some having checkpoints and some not. Also, checkpoints fucking suck in this game because of point #5, still to a degree higher than things like Kyukyoku Tiger or Tatsujin Ou (I really don't understand why Tatsujin Ou has multiple Raiden errors in it)
8. No autofire by default, in a game where autofire is extremely important. Toaplan games didn't have this dependence on autofire, and when they did (Grind Stormer, Tatsujin Ou) they put autofire in the damned game by default.
9. Because there's no autofire by default, not allowing it (a real scenario that is worth considering) makes the red weapon is almost useless instead of being the only real hope you have. This is even worse in the first Raiden, because at least in II, the purple weapon is an acceptable alternative.
10. Random medals. Literally random medals, it's ridiculous.
11. Raiden II introduced a second bomb type that complicates the entire bomb system. The new type is more obviously helpful, so you wanna pick P2 because it starts with them, and you also gotta deal with point #2 with regards to bomb drops, never mind the bizarre way bomb items bounce around the screen, and if you fuck up at any point you really hurt your score because of the excess bomb bonus that only applies if all bombs are the same type. Or you can die. You can absolutely die, and ruin your score even harder.

I KNOW I'm forgetting something. But you see the point: Raiden is a needlessly frustrating game with every minor detail, and other games simply were not like this for the most part. Raiden III did something about nearly all of these, and it's a significantly better game for it. Even got rid of looping, which actually works in its favor because scoring now matters instead of it devolving into seeing how many loops you can stand (until you reach 10M which is the point where Japan stops caring). Want loop 2 in Raiden III? Pick one of the higher difficulties, like you're fucking supposed to.

This isn't about the game being difficult, you can totally do that without all these weird issues. Sniper tanks, fast bullets, slow movement, the memorization focus, those things are fine and are not the problem. Later Raidens have these things for the most part... Raiden V has a faster ship although it also has a bigger play area, and Raiden IV at least has the Raiden III ship in it (as DLC, of course, because Raiden IV is kinda dumb).

Seriously, fuck Raiden and Raiden II/DX.

So what did Raiden V do that III didn't? Well, III stuck to certain series conventions even as it fixed a lot of things. At this point the bandaid fixes it applied mostly worked, but better was possible. Things like the fairy rose aren't necessary, so Raiden V got rid of that and made the fairy more useful. It would be better to encourage the player to use all their weapons, so the powerup system was rebuilt to require the player to do just that. Then Raiden V made additional changes to things changed in either III or IV, such as improving the air and ground medal concept from IV and making no miss no bomb bonuses more directly relevant. Raiden V also undid some questionable changes in Raiden IV, such as trying to stick in another loop and that stupid charge shot. Never mind that IV was also an unfinished game and needed 360 Mode to complete it.

qmish wrote:
Also, what do you think about -Zeal games? as some people consider them being "raiden worship" which was weird to hear for me (unlike doujin Raiden clone attempts like Wolflame)

It is weird. Triangle Service games play nothing like Raiden. If anything, they're closer to Raiden Fighters or something "weird" like that. They're all very experimental games.

By the way, Shienryu kicks ass. Way better game than these Raidens. Also way more like Toaplan than Raiden, has Tatsujin high speed and even has something similar to the Tatsujin powerup system. I'd say Daioh too but that game falls apart at high level.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:37 am 


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I like the sounds and graphics of Raiden II/DX (the explosion/crash effects in particular), but have always bounced off the gameplay for many of the same reasons Despatche listed, which serve to make the game a lot more frustrating than it really needs to be. trap15's SameSameSame hack is the closest I've come to enjoying a Raiden or similar-style game, alleviating many of the annoyances while retaining the core thrill of evading ludicrously fast bullets in a less choreographed (not sure that's the word I'm looking for?) manner than, say, a Psikyo game. Those same fast bullets also give me annoyance, however, since it can make it difficult to understand your mistakes while you're playing - one moment you're doing fine, the next you're dead to a bullet that didn't even exist before, and the difference between the right thing and that can be hard to discern.

mycophobia wrote:
Exy wrote:
Ah, there's that shmups forum goodwill.


??? he's just saying if you don't memorize the stages in these games to some degree then you're going to die. I don't read any malice here

Explicitly telling someone to go fail doesn't really come off that way though, even if the intent wasn't malicious.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:54 am 



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The thing I hate more than anything about Raiden is powering up your ships increases your hitbox size. That is just fucking stupid on every level. Well, that and the ridiculous and impossible checkpoints of the Japanese version. It even gives Gradius III a run for it's money when it comes to showing contempt for the player.

Despite all of that I still like the game but with a few tweaks here and there it could have been so much better.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:57 am 



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I think the first Raiden with no checkpoints is solid, II, DX and Viper Phase 1 however while visually great I don't enjoy much. The series seems to be based primarily in Same! Same! Same! 1p which is probably not a Toaplan game you want to copy, not to mention it has even more ridiculous recoveries with a fraction of the lives and a trashy peashooter out of 8 power up levels, but it still succeeded somehow.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:01 am 


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Same! Same! Same! 1P is still significantly more playable than Raiden and Raiden II/DX! That's the weirdest part. Even SSS's mean-spirited powerups bouncing around the screen are far more tolerable than most of what Raiden makes you put up with.

SSS in general also has a great Mega Drive conversion that's arguably better than the original, more than justifying its existence. Some of the Raiden conversions are funny, but that's about as much praise as they're getting.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:30 am 



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Despatche wrote:
Same! Same! Same! 1P is still significantly more playable than Raiden and Raiden II/DX! That's the weirdest part. Even SSS's mean-spirited powerups bouncing around the screen are far more tolerable than most of what Raiden makes you put up with.

That's probably true for Raiden II, but I'd much rather put time in the first Raiden than S!S!S! 1p which might be near unplayable without autofire. But yeah S!S!S! has the advantage of having a bunch of saner versions and the saving grace that is the default three-way. I don't think the MD port of Raiden is bad though, granted it's ugly but significantly easier and more balanced.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:36 am 


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The first Raiden is even less playable without autofire than II is though.

You actually don't really need autofire that much in SSS 1P, or any of the SSS versions really. Only the white weapon really benefits from it and even then that weapon just does so much damage per shot. Max power white weapon is so ridiculous, I can't believe that's a real weapon in a video game.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:39 am 


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Can you (or anyone else) comment on why Raiden (and probably RII to a lesser degree) seems to be the most recognizable vert shmup in the US? I see it cited all the time when shmups come up. I've also seen quite a few Raiden cabs in the wild over the years (probably moreso than any other shmup), and that's impressive because I don't visit arcades or places that have cabs that often.

e: what's the "white" weapon in Same³? There's only blue (the default wide shot), green (slim focused shot), and red (flamethrower).


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:56 am 



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Despatche wrote:
The first Raiden is even less playable without autofire than II is though.

mmh I disagree, granted the purple laser is somewhat easier to mash but also less reliable, sum to this that Raiden II is pretty much twice as difficult as the first game and it turns into a chore pretty fast. I had a fine experience with the first Raiden, it's fairly playable without autofire even if I'm not the biggest fan of 4 shots on-screen wide vulcan, most enemies die soon enough. DX western release has a 15hz autofire which is welcome, but also a mandatory special stage with checkpoints that's not so welcome.
I don't think the vulcan is particularly underpowered in SSS 1p, but in a game where every additional second of the enemy staying alive counts, it only feels right with autofire imo, it's particularly noticeable on bosses and meaty enemies. 2p/Fire shark enemies have less health (2p side) and are tamer so that's the version you want to play without autofire.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:08 am 


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Despatche wrote:
The first Raiden is even less playable without autofire than II is though.


Auto-fire breaks the first Raiden. Players need to learn to taper their shots, then learn to mash when needed. That combined with things like point-blanking is important in this game and it makes things quite manageable.

OmegaFlareX wrote:
Can you (or anyone else) comment on why Raiden (and probably RII to a lesser degree) seems to be the most recognizable vert shmup in the US? I see it cited all the time when shmups come up. I've also seen quite a few Raiden cabs in the wild over the years (probably moreso than any other shmup), and that's impressive because I don't visit arcades or places that have cabs that often.


It was popular in arcades at the time and a good earner for operators, so a lot of kits are out there and as such it was very common to come in contact with. Having home ports of the original game on a large amount of systems over the years has undoubtedly helped awareness of it in the USA as well (SNES, Genesis, Turbo Grafx, Jaguar, PC/MS-DOS, PS1, Lynx, among other sequels and spin-offs over the years).
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:19 am 


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Austin wrote:
Auto-fire breaks the first Raiden. Players need to learn to taper their shots, then learn to mash when needed. That combined with things like point-blanking is important in this game and it makes things quite manageable.

God, this is some of the most face-palm worthy shit I have ever read on this forum. Get over yourself, dude.

You're not gonna meme at me about being angry over good games getting trashed for no reason and then say some bullshit like "auto-fire breaks the first Raiden". Get the fuck outta here with that shit.

Vludi wrote:
Despatche wrote:
The first Raiden is even less playable without autofire than II is though.

mmh I disagree, granted the purple laser is somewhat easier to mash but also less reliable, sum to this that Raiden II is pretty much twice as difficult as the first game and it turns into a chore pretty fast. I had a fine experience with the first Raiden, it's fairly playable without autofire even if I'm not the biggest fan of 4 shots on-screen wide vulcan, most enemies die soon enough. DX western release has a 15hz autofire which is welcome, but also a mandatory special stage with checkpoints that's not so welcome.
I don't think the vulcan is particularly underpowered in SSS 1p, but in a game where every additional second of the enemy staying alive counts, it only feels right with autofire imo, it's particularly noticeable on bosses and meaty enemies. 2p/Fire shark enemies have less health (2p side) and are tamer so that's the version you want to play without autofire.

I dunno. Raiden II is pretty hard but it's not that huge of a jump over the original. It's not like, say, Galuda to Galuda II.

Thing about SSS is that there are, in fact, weapons besides the white weapon. The white weapon is just seriously OP, not like the red weapon in Raiden where it's almost required just to play the game on a basic level.

OmegaFlareX wrote:
Can you (or anyone else) comment on why Raiden (and probably RII to a lesser degree) seems to be the most recognizable vert shmup in the US? I see it cited all the time when shmups come up. I've also seen quite a few Raiden cabs in the wild over the years (probably moreso than any other shmup), and that's impressive because I don't visit arcades or places that have cabs that often.

For some reason Raiden and Raiden II/DX were everywhere. They just sold really well for some reason and were in a lot of the same places Street Fighter II was. It's a huge mystery.
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