I can see how they went about it.
My implementation is a hack'ish, fast way. It's improper.
The proper thing to do is have double buffers and unganged framerates, throw in a 3rd and 4th frame for the best deinterlacing quality.
You end up at tons of lag this way, but it is "proper".
I think that's how so many scalers have come to suck :p
Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
Re: Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
A few stray thoughts, skip if you don’t like rambling:
I can second that the VP30 never worked for me for 240/480i transitions.
The cheap scart to hdmi converter previously discussed solves most of my problems with Saturn when I’m linedoubling into the hdmi input (it has one of those as well), but first try with the hard 480i to 240p Sega Ages disc causes it to drop the image just like anything else. Otherwise I’d say it is 2 frames of lag when receiving a 480p source, and 3 frames when receiving a scart source—honestly not bad in 3D games. I’m considering splitting the signal from my OSSC so that I can toggle the converter into my chain when playing a troublesome title.
I have found that I can manage higher OSSC resolutions on my projector if I use an hdmi repeater/ booster. People who can’t achieve 5x from the OSSC, don’t rule out an 18gbps cable or the aforementioned booster as a solution.
That video of the GBS bouncing around RE2 on N64 without losing image is impressive, assuming it’s using the expansion module. I didn’t know there was a way to play RE2 without resolution changes, the person making the video may not have either.
One more thing, I wouldn’t want to give the impression that the Emotia solution is an excellent one— it’s just the only one that seems to work in an initial attempt. And I don’t disagree with anyone balking at the cost and complexity either. The picture it outputs is definitely unrefined and there’s more left to try. (Personally I don’t mind the softness because the Saturn in particular requires some rose colored glasses.) it seems inevitable that there’s a better, cheaper solution waiting in the wings. I’ve even wondered if Analogue has considered selling a scaler, since theyre building the mega sg and will surely need to deal with on-the-fly resolution switches like those in Sonic 2.
I’m going to have some time this weekend and can’t wait to try this stuff out some more.
I can second that the VP30 never worked for me for 240/480i transitions.
The cheap scart to hdmi converter previously discussed solves most of my problems with Saturn when I’m linedoubling into the hdmi input (it has one of those as well), but first try with the hard 480i to 240p Sega Ages disc causes it to drop the image just like anything else. Otherwise I’d say it is 2 frames of lag when receiving a 480p source, and 3 frames when receiving a scart source—honestly not bad in 3D games. I’m considering splitting the signal from my OSSC so that I can toggle the converter into my chain when playing a troublesome title.
I have found that I can manage higher OSSC resolutions on my projector if I use an hdmi repeater/ booster. People who can’t achieve 5x from the OSSC, don’t rule out an 18gbps cable or the aforementioned booster as a solution.
That video of the GBS bouncing around RE2 on N64 without losing image is impressive, assuming it’s using the expansion module. I didn’t know there was a way to play RE2 without resolution changes, the person making the video may not have either.
One more thing, I wouldn’t want to give the impression that the Emotia solution is an excellent one— it’s just the only one that seems to work in an initial attempt. And I don’t disagree with anyone balking at the cost and complexity either. The picture it outputs is definitely unrefined and there’s more left to try. (Personally I don’t mind the softness because the Saturn in particular requires some rose colored glasses.) it seems inevitable that there’s a better, cheaper solution waiting in the wings. I’ve even wondered if Analogue has considered selling a scaler, since theyre building the mega sg and will surely need to deal with on-the-fly resolution switches like those in Sonic 2.
I’m going to have some time this weekend and can’t wait to try this stuff out some more.
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NoAffinity
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 5:27 pm
- Location: Escondido, CA, USA
Re: Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
If you're referring to my video, you can see the startup screen showing that the expansion pak is present. I chose RE2 for the very reason that it's a known problematic title for scalers, multipliers, processors, and because it does a good job showcasing how the GBS CFW is handling 480i. I had one capture, which didn't make the final cut, but, where the camera angle changes during gameplay and the game goes to 240p mode for approximately 2 seconds (which I was able to tell because scanlines were present, which they wont be in interlaced modes, in rama's implementation), and then camera angle change again and it goes back to 480i. It's completely random that it basically stuck in 240p mode, in gameplay, for that short blip while the camera was in a particular angle. If/when that occurs with a device that has problems with the switching, it presumably would be completely dark throughout, plus however many typical seconds it takes to recover after the second transition (240p back to 480i).Galgomite wrote: That video of the GBS bouncing around RE2 on N64 without losing image is impressive, assuming it’s using the expansion module. I didn’t know there was a way to play RE2 without resolution changes, the person making the video may not have either.
Re: Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
Um, you can't second what no one has said? NoAffinity said it gave frame stutter, but he apparently didn't try changing refresh rate.Galgomite wrote:A few stray thoughts, skip if you don’t like rambling:
I can second that the VP30 never worked for me for 240/480i transitions.
It should work, though I'm not sure if it can give a pixel perfect 480p output (and the VP30's scaling supposedly isn't that good).
Re: Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
You’re right.ZellSF wrote:Um, you can't second what no one has said? NoAffinity said it gave frame stutter, but he apparently didn't try changing refresh rate.Galgomite wrote:A few stray thoughts, skip if you don’t like rambling:
I can second that the VP30 never worked for me for 240/480i transitions.
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NoAffinity
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 5:27 pm
- Location: Escondido, CA, USA
Re: Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions
I want to update my earlier statement about the VP30, not that I would recommend it, given the price point and other options currently available, but I want to be sure I'm not providing mis-information.
I tested the VP30 with N64 RE2, in 60hz locked mode. N64 w/ Tim's N64RGB board -> SCART output -> Shinybow 2830 -> VP30 component input. The VP30 has the ABT-102 card installed, I did not test without out. The VP30 handled the transitions just fine. No noticeable hiccups, and no frame stutter whatsoever.
I then tried SNES, because I remember that one in particular resulted in frame stutter through the VP30. It's a SNES Mini w/ homemade 7314 amp, and dejitter board. The VP30 indicates it is receiving a good signal (power light is blue), but I get nothing on the screen. TCL 49S405 says no signal. So, I unlocked the framerate, which defaults to 59.94 as the starting point. I upped it to 60.08, which is how the OSSC always reports the SNES. Had to power cycle, but it came up displaying at unlocked 60.08hz.
I then opened 240p test suite and went into the "Alternate 240p/480i" test. Switching resolutions in this test, there's a slight screen jump at each transition, but it does not ever lose the image. If I had a guess, I would say it's a single frame that's affected at each transition. I then tested the scroll test and a few games, and there was no sign of stutter.
So, TL;DR - the VP30 handles the transitions just fine. Certain consoles may require unlocking the framerate and dialing it in to the console's refresh rate to get it to display. With or without framerate unlocked, p/i transitions do not appear to be a problem. Given the price point of the VP30, and the subpar video it produces compared to other devices currently on the market at much better priced points, I wouldn't recommend the VP30 as the best solution for handling p/i transitions.
I tested the VP30 with N64 RE2, in 60hz locked mode. N64 w/ Tim's N64RGB board -> SCART output -> Shinybow 2830 -> VP30 component input. The VP30 has the ABT-102 card installed, I did not test without out. The VP30 handled the transitions just fine. No noticeable hiccups, and no frame stutter whatsoever.
I then tried SNES, because I remember that one in particular resulted in frame stutter through the VP30. It's a SNES Mini w/ homemade 7314 amp, and dejitter board. The VP30 indicates it is receiving a good signal (power light is blue), but I get nothing on the screen. TCL 49S405 says no signal. So, I unlocked the framerate, which defaults to 59.94 as the starting point. I upped it to 60.08, which is how the OSSC always reports the SNES. Had to power cycle, but it came up displaying at unlocked 60.08hz.
I then opened 240p test suite and went into the "Alternate 240p/480i" test. Switching resolutions in this test, there's a slight screen jump at each transition, but it does not ever lose the image. If I had a guess, I would say it's a single frame that's affected at each transition. I then tested the scroll test and a few games, and there was no sign of stutter.
So, TL;DR - the VP30 handles the transitions just fine. Certain consoles may require unlocking the framerate and dialing it in to the console's refresh rate to get it to display. With or without framerate unlocked, p/i transitions do not appear to be a problem. Given the price point of the VP30, and the subpar video it produces compared to other devices currently on the market at much better priced points, I wouldn't recommend the VP30 as the best solution for handling p/i transitions.