I couldn't stand it anymore! So I wrote them a letter...

[Blade]

Dear Sony,
I consider myself a "hardcore" gamer in many respects and in many genres that are offered on the Playstation 2, games like Final Fantasy X, Zone of the Enders, Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, Disgaea: Hour of Darkness, Chaos Legion, Guilty Gear X2, and Dragonball Z: Budokai 3 are all games that I own and love to play. However, it is concerning me as of late the lack of Shoot-em-up games (Shmups for short) that have appeared in the American Market as of late. I am fully aware of such titles as Gradius V, R-Type Final, Defender, Silpheed, Capcom Generations 1: 1942, 1943, Kai, which, in all honesty have not been shown on the market for very long (I just called up Gamestop the other day to ask for the newly released Gradius V by Konami, and they do not have it, nor do they have the original Einhander for PS-one). On top of this, there are many many more Shmups that you have for the PS-one and PS2 that have not been shown in the American Market. Titles such as Psyvariar II, Shikigami No Shiro (Mobile Light Force 2), Donpachi, Dodonpachi, Gunbird, Parodius "Forever with Me", Raiden DX, RayCrisis/Layer Section III, Thunderforce V, and many many others, just to give you an idea. I am a fan of the Shmup (Shoot em up) Genre as well as the RPG/Action/Adventure/FPS Genres and I would like to see more Vertical Shooters come to your system. Also, in particular, I am a fan of several Treasure and Milestone games such as Ikaruga and Chaos Field, if it would be possible to port those games to PS2, that would be greatly appreciated. If you are unfamiliar with the Shooter games I have listed, please go to http://www.shmups.com to find a large list of games that I am absolutely certain would make an excellent addition to a Playstation 2 Library. Please take this letter into deep consideration, for I would like to consider myself a representative of fans of the shmup genre, not just of myself. I hope to hear a response soon, and possibly some good news regarding this important gaming issue. Thank you for your Time.

------

And that's it.

If you guys think this letter was a good idea, bad idea, or if they'll even listen to me...well, speak your mind.

[system11]

Double edged sword.

They won't listen, they won't care, and you've wasted your time.

However, no matter how many times you recite the above, you will personally feel better for having written it.

It's the same reason I wrote to Warashi to try to encourage them to release a new or revised Shienryu 2.

[landshark]

Incoming form letter.

[benstylus]

Here's a truth that really hit hard when I first realized it.

As a "hardcore" gamer, you are no longer the target audience for most developers.

[kemical]

yea, hardcore gamers are not the target audience. but it is nice and rewarding to receive letters and emails from fans who care.
but with a large company like sony it probably won't do much good, you'd need to contact a publisher who has brought over those types of games in the past and encourage them to continue etc..

[tehkao]

...and you wonder why so many people hate Sony.

This is the company that is famous for rejecting games like shmups because they are too "2D".

[Blade]

As a "hardcore" gamer, you are no longer the target audience for most developers.

You know what....that's the dumbest thought process I've ever heard. Why wouldn't you want to sell to hardcore and pick-up-and-play gamers? Because we like our games to be difficult? Because we're hard to please? Because you want to attract as wide and as short-attention-span-ridden audience as you can? O.o

To me, that logic doesn't make sense....if I were a game developer my target audience would be the fans. The people used to playing such games.

[TVG]

except "mainstream" earns much more money than the "gamers"

for every person that is into quality games, there's 20 people that mindlessly buy the sport games, racing and the big liscences.

it's like saying a good underground band does more money than britney spears, it doesnt work that way.

[Nuke]

To me, that logic doesn't make sense....if I were a game developer my target audience would be the fans. The people used to playing such games.

Then your Tresure, Cave or as of now, Capcom.

[Brian]

With the new management shake up at Sony I don't think the shmup genre is getting their foremost attention. Howard Stringer is a little focused on getting a new board established and also taking on Apple in the digital media realm. Now, I understand it would still be the job of Sony to be "customer-centric" but you know, it's hard to fault Sony for not releasing these games in the US. Their strategy has worked thus far and it is the only division of Sony that can claim success.

[benstylus]

As a "hardcore" gamer, you are no longer the target audience for most developers.

You know what....that's the dumbest thought process I've ever heard. Why wouldn't you want to sell to hardcore and pick-up-and-play gamers? Because we like our games to be difficult? Because we're hard to please? Because you want to attract as wide and as short-attention-span-ridden audience as you can? O.o

To me, that logic doesn't make sense....if I were a game developer my target audience would be the fans. The people used to playing such games.

Developers nowadays try to include facets of everything to attract everyone.

Unfortunately, this tends to result in very average gameplay in several areas rather than perfect gameplay in one area. Longevity has become more important than good gameplay in many cases.

There's no doubt that people who are developing shmups are developing them for the shmup lovers. But there's a reason we're seeing so few shmups nowadays, and that reason is because shmups don't sell to a wide audience. And just looking at the reviews for some of the more recently released console shmups, it's no wonder - reviewers consistently complain about how short the games are.

Of course a shmup fan knows that a short game means you can get better at it faster, but to today's audience, after beating a game once, there's no incentive to play it again without unlockable stuff. Hi scores don't matter anymore.

[Ganelon]

I hope you didn't send that message in just 1 paragraph because it'd be much harder to catch their attention. Anyway, good effort although Sony probably won't be phased one bit to making its systems appear "cool" to the masses. And what should Sony be doing about it? In some cases, Sony let the publishers release the game for a budget price or in a collection but the publishers refused.

[Fost]

Is anyone on this board under 20?

Console games largest market is 8-15 year old boys (although girls are upcoming in this regard). Have you ever tried showing kids that age a shmup? I have - they generally aren't interested. We shouldn't get too upset about it though - it's just the way things are. There's still people doing good things in the shootem-up genre.

I think one thing that could be a saviour for good shmups is the indie/shareware games market. I know PC shmups haven't been traditionally great, and tend to be crowd pleasers of a sort - designed for people who aren't into shmups. I have high hopes though that some day, we'll see a game as pure and wonderful as DDP come from an indie developer.

That sad truth is - we are the gaming equivalent of people who go to the cinema and choose a subtitled French film over Spiderman X.

[dboeren]

And just looking at the reviews for some of the more recently released console shmups, it's no wonder - reviewers consistently complain about how short the games are.

Of course a shmup fan knows that a short game means you can get better at it faster, but to today's audience, after beating a game once, there's no incentive to play it again without unlockable stuff. Hi scores don't matter anymore.

Oh, man does this piss me off to no end. Reviewers who credit-feed to the end of the game, say they "beat" the game, and then conclude there is no replay value. Beating the game means 1 credit, not continuing over and over to get to the end!

I hope some gamers today still realize that gameplay is what matters, not length of the game. Even if it's not a shmup, intriguing gameplay is what brings me back. This applies whether we are talking Civilization on the PC or Tenchu on the Playstation.

[black mariah]

Here's a truth that really hit hard when I first realized it.

As a "hardcore" gamer, you are no longer the target audience for most developers.

Here's a harder truth.

"Hardcore" gamers were NEVER the target audience. Never have been, and never will be. Truly the only company of any size that releases a large amount of niche titles is Capcom, and even they have shit like Street Fighter that appeals to a very wide audience. Even when shooters were popular companies weren't marketing to hardcore gamers, they were marketing to the THEN-HIGHLY LUCRATIVE SHOOTER GENRE. Do you think there were so many shitty Raiden and R-Type clones because of the kindness of some developer's heart? Fuck no. They made all that shit because shooters sold. Now they don't.

[Ganelon]

Err, some still do. Cave still makes shooters. Sure, some companies like Raizing have moved on to make Bloody Roar and Naruto titles while Psikyo made mahjong titles but a rare few are still dedicated.

[Andi]

There isn't too much of a point of getting bent out of shape about new shooter releases. People who like shooters are a dying breed (the adventure game community went through this 5 years ago). Forunately for us, there are enough quality old shooters that there is plenty of gaming for us to do until we get bored of games or die.

[Fighter17]

Well I'm 15, I love shoot 'em ups when I was four. The SNES really help me a lot in my early years.

[Blue Lander]

And just looking at the reviews for some of the more recently released console shmups, it's no wonder - reviewers consistently complain about how short the games are.

Of course a shmup fan knows that a short game means you can get better at it faster, but to today's audience, after beating a game once, there's no incentive to play it again without unlockable stuff. Hi scores don't matter anymore.

Oh, man does this piss me off to no end. Reviewers who credit-feed to the end of the game, say they "beat" the game, and then conclude there is no replay value. Beating the game means 1 credit, not continuing over and over to get to the end!

Or even better, reviewers who play the game for 15 minutes, die a few times, and declare the game hopelessly difficult and impossible. If they get continues they complain the game is too short (I saw a recent review claiming Gradius V could be beaten in 20 minutes) and if they don't get continues they complain it's too hard. Reminds me of the time legendary idiot Tommy Tallarico "reviewed" Ikaruga on his TV show and complained that there were only 3 continues. If he had played for more than an hour before he did the review, he'd have realised you unlock more continues the longer you play.

[BrianC]

I don't like recent reviews either. I was really annoyed by the review that said that Gradius Galaxies is nothing but manuvering through obstacles and shooting at enemies and that it's too short. The recent reviews of Gradius V annoyed me a bit too. It's a preview, but the IGN preview of Chaos Field GCN, despite getting info about Shikigami no Shiro right, complained about the game being just bosses (despite it having a new mode with regular enemies) and made some graphics complaints about the game that seem to be untrue.

[landshark]

Err, some still do. Cave still makes shooters. Sure, some companies like Raizing have moved on to make Bloody Roar and Naruto titles while Psikyo made mahjong titles but a rare few are still dedicated.

Yeah, but this is not a niche market over in Japan.

The letter was about a different market.

The single reason that hardcore gamers are not targeted (the minority group I mean) is the almighty $.

Games nowadays cost a ton of money to develop, even the small games. Distributors/developers/designers cannot afford to make something where the possible audience is very small.

It's like gambling. You want to maximize your potential return.

[black mariah]

Err, some still do. Cave still makes shooters. Sure, some companies like Raizing have moved on to make Bloody Roar and Naruto titles while Psikyo made mahjong titles but a rare few are still dedicated.

As was mentioned somewhere else, Cave is essentially two guys and some freelancers. Meaning low overhead, meaning less revenue is required to keep going. Raizing and Psikyo aren't what anyone would consider sizeable companies. Smaller company = less profits necessary to be sustainable.

Video game revies have ALWAYS sucked. The difference is that now you're old enough to recognize that they suck. Go read some old EGM and Gamepro if you need a memory jog.

[Ganelon]

OK, so every response besides the topic creator's has been in agreement: that companies have the $ as top priority and that complaining about credit feeded games is lame. So much for a heated discussion here...

[Davey]

It's about the money. And, despite popular belief, that does not make them inherently evil. It just makes them a business.

Having said that...

I wonder how much a shmup costs to develop, produce, market, etc. Obviously they don't sell as well as... well, anything, but I'd imagine having such a h4Rdc0R3 following means that any shmup made is guaranteed to sell a few copies to the loyal followers. People wet their pants in anticipation to buy the Last Shmup For The DC Ever every time it's announced.

However, I do understand them not bringing them to the west. Normal people aren't going to buy them at any price (I didn't see many people racing to buy Mobile Light Force 2 for $9.99), and the people who do want them import them anyway. Where's the benefit? Casual shmuppers who are too lazy/cheap to import? That's an even less profitable/sizeable segment.

And even if they do bring them to the US, they should be full price. Shmup fans will pay $49.99 (hell, they pay hundreds for PCBs), normal people won't buy them even at budget prices, so why mess up your margins if your number of units sold will hardly go up?

[Ganelon]

Sony won't let any company price shooters at high price. I guess 2D means "cheap and budget" to them. Indeed though, the demand for the games from people like us can go a lot higher than what they're currently being sold for in the US. However, it's a moot point to consider when the makers of the largest game base refuses 2D games at regular price.

However, it'd be interesting IMO to see the sales figures for Castle Shikigami 2 (new name and a cheap $10) and Gradius V (brand name and a decent $30) to see how poorly shooters are truly faring in the US and whether casual fans do buy the games or not.

[black mariah]

OK, so every response besides the topic creator's has been in agreement: that companies have the $ as top priority and that complaining about credit feeded games is lame. So much for a heated discussion here...

What do you expect? Am I supposed to get pissed that companies won't pour their money down the toilet of shooter development? Face it, we're unimportant. This isn't good or bad, it just IS. For a loooooong time nobody over here played RPG's with the exception of hardcore RPG fans. Then FFVII came along and changed all that. For a long time shooters were very popular in this country. Now they aren't. You can either spend your time whining about it or you can do something about it.

Look at Katamari Damacy. There were no plans to bring that out here, but the feedback they got was so overwhelming they did it anyway. When was the last time there was that much outcry for a shmup?

[benstylus]

Here's a harder truth.

"Hardcore" gamers were NEVER the target audience.

Heh - I differ a bit on this point with you. While I agree that most developers have pretty much always tried to cater to the majority audience (as more sales equals more $$), I think that back in the glory days of shmups, the "hardcore" gamers were the majority of the game players.

As our hobby has increased in popularity, the percentage of people who are "hardcore" has dropped significantly.

[Blade]

Well, in this day and age where games are filled with Tutorials and Explanations and background stories and Role-playing and Interactive "aspects"; the idea and concepts of a Shmup being interesting have gotten that much smaller.

But it doesn't seem to be having any major negative effects to the Japanese market. This is something I don't understand, if the sole reason they don't produce shmups for Export because it's a niche genre...why can't they put a new spin on old games? I know R-Type Final was a step in that direction in terms of replayability and 101 ships. Despite the fact that games like Donpachi and Ikaruga have 5 levels, the gameplay varied when you either switched ships or made decisions on how you were going to play the game. The Chain combo system for example: added new challenges and an interesting way to think about the enemy instead of simply dodging their bullets....not to mention the Dot-Eater concept. Some of the best graphics I've ever seen in most games comes from Shmups....it defines quality in game-design.

Well, if, like it was said, the shmup genre dies....(knock on wood) we can always make more.

[Ganelon]

What do you expect? Am I supposed to get pissed that companies won't pour their money down the toilet of shooter development? Face it, we're unimportant. This isn't good or bad, it just IS.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I simply implicitly noted that I have no idea who you're preaching to since everyone already shares your sentiments. Are you expecting disagreement for something? The "hard truth" as you put it has already been recognized by the shooter community at large for years now. That's why we're always pleased when new shooters like Castle Shikigami 2 and R-Type Final make it over, because it's an unexpected surprise.

Anyway, the hardcore have not always been ignored. SNK for one focused much of their attention on the deep pocketed Neo Geo owning minority and ended up supporting a sinking ship.

[Skyline]

Look at Katamari Damacy. There were no plans to bring that out here, but the feedback they got was so overwhelming they did it anyway. When was the last time there was that much outcry for a shmup?

Ikaruga