Under Defeat for DC

[llabnip]

Well, that's the problem with the world, nobody likes thinking.

Actually, the reason I don't want to think much in my video games is that I solve problems all day long. As a senior developer I debug embedded software - it's fairly engaging work and at the end of the day I'm often mentally spent. So I look to video games for relaxation. Maybe if I were at a point in my life where I wasn't being continually challenged for excellence, I'd look to video games to provide that.

I remember when I was at the university and I could breeze through my coursework and was looking for more all the time. At that time I think I was looking for something different in gaming - something with a little more substance. Now, I've got a plateful that keeps my mind engaged - and video games are a nice way to take a break from it. I'm not sure how old you are or what you do for a living, but don't be surprised once you find your calling in life and dedicate your positive mental and/or physical energy towards it, you may discover that you want something different from video gaming. Then again, perhaps you have a never ending supply of mental energy to devote to video gaming and that's cool too.

Anyway, Under Defeat is not the best game for those of you looking for more guts under the hood. For the rest of us that enjoy straightforward blasting in an exceptionally well-done package, it's quite nice.

It's interesting that you seem to compare it unfavorably to Raiden DX. I, too, see the similiarities to Raiden and maybe that's one of the reasons I'm loving Under Defeat (and Trizeal). These early 90's Raiden or Toaplan-style (for lack of a better term) shooters really appeal to me.

[edited to make my post a bit more UD focused]

[Randorama]

Hi Neon,

my name is Nobody and in the world, i'm the one who likes thinking [/Carroll]

Seriously though, in the long distance, this discourse is getting rather absurd. I do an extremely cerebrotic work and, once the cerebrotic part is done, it's all about doing the experiments and the data collection ad nauseam. Are shmups any different? Hell no, but some are more complex than others. What this basically means? That i'm stuck in this goddamn athenian model forever, and it's my own fault, damn...

I AM NUMBER 1!

(Actually, n.0, to be exact ).

But seriously, if you don't want to be stupid in peace or only think in job, it means that you lack the second P in the PASP paradigm. And, oddest thing of all, i am more or less serious

[it290]

Well, that's the problem with the world, nobody likes thinking. An english teacher I had once put it nicely...there's the 'Visigoth' style of art/entertainment where works are praised for having a broad appeal (Radiant Silvergun, anyone?). The broader the appeal, the less thought provoking/controversy over it, since it's something everyone can agree with. The comic strip Garfield would be another example...Garfield never challenges us, and we're indeed comforted by the fact that he's always eating or sleeping. Then the 'Athenian' style...stuff that makes people think. Battle Garegga, or to continue the comics analogy, Calvin and Hobbes.

If you choose to be a 'Visigoth,' it means you're just sitting in front of the TV, randomly moving the joystick, never improving yourself or the way you think. Maybe you're even drooling a little? I choose the Athenian style so I'm not just wasting my time playing these games (as logical thinking/problem solving can be applied to everyday life), and because I think Garfield is a fat, lazy fuck Wink. That's why I view DX as so superior to Raiden 2, the medalling makes it that much more intense, but I'm digressing from a digression of a digression, sorry.

Somebody more intelligent could phrase it better, I'm gonna google around for that article...

Please. If you were just after intellectual stimulation, you'd be playing chess instead of a fucking video game. This elitism is really becoming very tiring. I think it's safe to say that we all like shooters, and so it's refreshing to play a game where the scoring emphasis is actually on... wait for it... shooting stuff. Besides, many of the more score-centric games are more prone to the 'restart syndrome' than Under Defeat. Lost your chain? Died while your bomb max multipler was at x3? Might as well start over, you're not going to get close to your high score. In UD, death is very fair, and each life gives you even more scoring potential than the last, with the same chance of survival.

Additionally, less complex does not mean inferior. By your logic, Chaos Field is superior to UD. Is an elaborately conceived, yet poorly executed piece of art superior to a simpler, yet exquisitely done piece? I tend to think not. I'm not saying that games with complex scoring mechanics suck, but just because you prefer them, UD doesn't become a piece of lowbrow trash. If your 'Athenian' ideal were the true measure of excellence, intelligent people would be listening to nothing but avant garde composers and free jazz all the time, and every comic on the funny pages would be Zippy, not C&H. But I'm glad you've been able to put your 'leet Garegga skills to good use in bettering your life.

[subcons]

I guess this is what happens after 25 pages of talking about one game.

Sorry I asked.

[louisg]

Athenian? Ohhhhh, shoot, shoot, psycho soldier...

But really, you stop thinking in Under Defeat and you'll find your game over really fast. I don't think this requires any less thinking than most other shooters, it's just straightforward about how the scoring works. I've found alternate approaches to most sections of the game as well. And it's pretty clear that the designers were thinking about the fairness of the stage design and all when they made it. But of course that's the shooter genre in a nutshell-- I think you might have missed the mark with the visigoth comment.

[roker]

Well, that's the problem with the world, nobody likes thinking. An english teacher I had once put it nicely...there's the 'Visigoth' style of art/entertainment where works are praised for having a broad appeal (Radiant Silvergun, anyone?). The broader the appeal, the less thought provoking/controversy over it, since it's something everyone can agree with. The comic strip Garfield would be another example...Garfield never challenges us, and we're indeed comforted by the fact that he's always eating or sleeping. Then the 'Athenian' style...stuff that makes people think. Battle Garegga, or to continue the comics analogy, Calvin and Hobbes.

If you choose to be a 'Visigoth,' it means you're just sitting in front of the TV, randomly moving the joystick, never improving yourself or the way you think. Maybe you're even drooling a little? I choose the Athenian style so I'm not just wasting my time playing these games (as logical thinking/problem solving can be applied to everyday life), and because I think Garfield is a fat, lazy fuck . That's why I view DX as so superior to Raiden 2, the medalling makes it that much more intense, but I'm digressing from a digression of a digression, sorry.

Somebody more intelligent could phrase it better, I'm gonna google around for that article...

that's the most pretentious thing I've heard all day

it's a fucking videogame for christ's sake

[jp]

Well, that's the problem with the world, nobody likes thinking. An english teacher I had once put it nicely...there's the 'Visigoth' style of art/entertainment where works are praised for having a broad appeal (Radiant Silvergun, anyone?).

Yes, Radiant Silvergun has no thinking involved and a broad appeal. I mean, the game is impossibly hard if you don't figure out the chaining, chaining is impossible if you don't learn the levels, and learning the levels takes hours of practice.

But yes, Radiant Silvergun is obviously the "non-thinking' man's game and appeals mostly to shmupping n00bs. Thats why more than 5 people on this board have 1CC'd it.

Jesus, do you even read what you post now?

[Neon]

Alright, alright, I'm a pretentious elitist and I suck dick for crack, etc. I just thought she made an interesting point.

[dave4shmups]

Jeez, I didn't mean to open up a can of worms! Obviously EVERY video game requires SOME thinking. All I was saying is that I care more about depth in a game like Elder Scrolls, then I do in a shmup. I'm just really sick of reading video game reviews that rip on simple shooters, like BLACK, for not having enough depth. There's nothing wrong with a game that you can just sit back and relax and play without having to read a freakin' 200 page manual and strategy guide.

At any rate, I cancelled my order for Under Defeat because I found out that, while I am getting a tax return afterall, because the IRS screwed up, it will come "sometime in the next six weeks."

[KBZ]

...I pray to god that G rev never come across this thread

are we done yet! After 26 pages, I don't there's ANYTHING left to say.

We're just going to hate ourselves after this!!

[roker]

...I pray to god that G rev never come across this thread

are we done yet! After 26 pages, I don't there's ANYTHING left to say.

We're just going to hate ourselves after this!!

why?

it was mostly praise

the game is ace, even with it's flaws

then again, I don't think there's a such thing as a flawless game anyway

[subcons]

Must be better than Radilgy.

Twice as many pages.

[neoalphazero]

A little thank you to NCS, they sent me one of the UD stickers, must have had good luck securing more from G.Rev.

I'm still enjoying the game quite a bit and honestly that's not a problem with near any shooter as they all have a certain appeal be it design, score mechanic, etc (Chaos Field has been the only real recent exception). I really enjoyed Radigry and find UD to be a great counter balance, and I really hope to have the cash for Ibara soon .

*-neo

[Frogacuda]

...stuff...

Are you sure this isn't more 'old school' versus 'new school' stuff?

I agree. The fact remains that people are trumpeting this game as one of the greatest shooters ever. That everyone should play it. I think that's true if you're a fan of Raystorm/Crisis, but anyone not in love with those "golden years" will be left wondering what the big deal is. That would be me.

In reality, I feel your comments criticize the game for being old school but also criticizes all the new things they try as being faults.

Yes. Yes they do.

I really have problems buying into this game as anything short of 'finely crafted'.

I really have problems buying into this game being any more 'finely crafted' then dozens of others. Still not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's mediocre.

It's not a a mediocre game. It's a quite exceptional game of a style that doesn't appeal to you. You should at least be able to recognize that this is better than, say, Trizeal, or Shienryu or other attempts to revive old-school.

[Frogacuda]

UD's a decent enough old school shooter, but like so many others, it doesn't top Raiden DX. The 'I play for fun, not score' crowd will disagree, but that only makes me think I'm more right ^_~

The "play for fun, not score" crowd probably prefers raiden 2 to the cumbersome timed medal stuff of DX.

Anyway, it's not so much that I don't like complex scoring mechanics (I adore Dodonpachi and Mars Matrix), as much as I like, in this case, to enjoy a pure action game without them, where I can worry about survival, and be rewarded (in score) for playing that way. I think I certainly have time for both.

[CMoon]

It's not a a mediocre game. It's a quite exceptional game of a style that doesn't appeal to you. You should at least be able to recognize that this is better than, say, Trizeal, or Shienryu or other attempts to revive old-school.

This is precisely what I was trying to say. I might see a movie that is good but I don't particularly enjoy it. I don't rag on it as a poor movie--it just isn't my thing. Under Defeat is a well crafted game that has clearly been labored over, not shat out like so many others. It may not appeal to certain players, but mediocre it is not.

[qatmix]

Indeed, Under Defeat has really gone down exceptionally well amongst my friends. its now one of the games of choice when we meet up to play games / drink. The simple fact that this is the first Shump that they have really digged for years shows the excellence of the title. Obviously there will bo seom who do not enjoy it, but they are easily in the minority. This is a very strong title and will easily be regarded as one of the classics of the genre as time progresses.

[Kiken]

G-Rev reported that the LE version of UD is now sold-out and the reprint of the regular version should be available soon.

Also, there is a new place-holder image on the Senko No Ronde page (I'm assuming this is for the cellphone game).

[dmauro]

So I've been sitting on an unopened copy of Under Defeat for about two weeks now as some jerk takes his sweet time sending me the Dreamcast I won on eBay. I mean, sure, I like the cover art and all, but I need to be playing this game.

[Daigoro]

Indeed, Under Defeat has really gone down exceptionally well amongst my friends. its now one of the games of choice when we meet up to play games / drink. The simple fact that this is the first Shump that they have really digged for years shows the excellence of the title. Obviously there will bo seom who do not enjoy it, but they are easily in the minority. This is a very strong title and will easily be regarded as one of the classics of the genre as time progresses.

great point!

how are you guys playing? two player, or switching off between credits?

first shmups some of my friends have played in a loong while as well. didnt last long, but my friends are weaksauce.

[finngamer]

I posted my widescreen-tate setup in the hardware-section, but when I asked about UD's tate-mode, all I got was people giving me TV adjustment instructions.


The game runs in normal 3:4 ratio in the arcades, right? But have you noticed, how the only tate-option in UD isn't this normal ratio?


In tate, the menus and artwork are clearly compressed, like they are anamorphic and ready to be stretched over a widescreen. I'm not exactly sure about the gameplay, though.

Also, there are chuncks missing from both sides of the picture.


The way I see it, the tate mode is for widescreen, and the mode is sort of a compromise (since the game isn't originally in widescreen ratio). The screen is compressed slightly, and the sides are missing stuff. So this means a compromise between the two factors, and adding up to the game looking good on widescreen.

I just wonder why they didn't include a normal tate mode in this. Or could it be, that the game somehow detects the TV used?

[Kron]

The game is 4:3 ratio in the arcades and the home port is the same, Just make sure you don't have any artificial screen modes selected on your TV.

[finngamer]

The game is 4:3 ratio in the arcades and the home port is the same, Just make sure you don't have any artificial screen modes selected on your TV.

Nope, my TV is fine.

This is definetly a feature in the UD tate-mode.



And yes, the 3 normal vertical modes (with black bars on the sides) are fine. The tate-mode is clearly compressed.

[captain ahar]

I posted my widescreen-tate setup in the hardware-section, but when I asked about UD's tate-mode, all I got was people giving me TV adjustment instructions.

people are trying to help you dude. you mentioned that some of the screen is cut off along the sides (scores and such). the setup menu will (could) help you get the full view of the screen by tweaking your viewable area.

and actually, come to think of it, is it possible the reason why he is supposedly not getting any in-game distortion, is the because the tv is upscaling the image and compromising the left and right edge (in tate) to fit the widescreen aspect?

a like a disa

[finngamer]

I posted my widescreen-tate setup in the hardware-section, but when I asked about UD's tate-mode, all I got was people giving me TV adjustment instructions.

people are trying to help you dude.

I know, that's the point. I said I liked the mode, and still people were telling what to do to remove it.

you mentioned that some of the screen is cut off along the sides (scores and such). the setup menu will (could) help you get the full view of the screen by tweaking your viewable area.

My TV does not need any adjustment, as every other thing is pictured like it should, including all other tate-modes in all other games.

and actually, come to think of it, is it possible the reason why he is supposedly not getting any in-game distortion, is the because the tv is upscaling the image and compromising the left and right edge (in tate) to fit the widescreen aspect?

Yep, this is what I suspected a few posts back.


Actually I got my hands on a small 4:3 TV, and did some tests.

During tate gameplay the sides are not lost. And I checked the ratio-thing in the galleries (by measuring a round object). On 4:3, the object retained it's shape when switching between the normal vertical and tate. In the widescreen TV, the tate-mode compressed the picture.


So the game does indeed detect the TV being used, and creates the compromise for widescreens. This is actually a pretty smart feature.

[it290]

AFAIK, that's not possible, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

I did notice that on my 4:3 TV, the game had a lot of overscan, especially on the left and right (quite a bit more overscan than any of the other shooters I own). I had to adjust vertical size to compensate.

[finngamer]

AFAIK, that's not possible, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

I don't know, it really seems like it. Could someone with normal and widescreen TV's do some measurements, to see if there's something special about my TV?


Well, in any case, I like it.

[Kron]

So the game does indeed detect the TV being used, and creates the compromise for widescreens. This is actually a pretty smart feature.

No it doesn't, An AV out is a single direction connection with no data back in return. Any settings are entirely user driven.

[finngamer]

So the game does indeed detect the TV being used, and creates the compromise for widescreens. This is actually a pretty smart feature.

No it doesn't, An AV out is a single direction connection with no data back in return. Any settings are entirely user driven.

OK, wrong choice of words, the game doesn't detect anything. But the TV understands/displays the signal differently?

[Dave_K.]

AFAIK, that's not possible, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

I don't know, it really seems like it. Could someone with normal and widescreen TV's do some measurements, to see if there's something special about my TV?


Well, in any case, I like it.

Modern widescreen TVs internally scale a 4:3 picture to 16:9 so as to not look to distorted/stretched. After seeing the pictures you posted in the hardware forum, and you even confirming the sides are cropped, this sounds exactly like whats happening. You could look at the your TV menu options to see if you can turn this setting off, so as to have it display in 4:3 (with black bars), and then compare/measure yourself.

I've seen some plasma TV's stretch 4:3 to 16:9 only around the sides so the middle of the screen doesn't look like people with fat faces. It really fooled me into thinking it was an original 16:9 widescreen source.