XRGB-mini Framemeister, N64 & the search for a better image

[mrwasi]

Hi All,
I am still struggling to get a decent image from my N64 on the Framemeister via S-Video.
I have tried preloaded settings, video tutorials (such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZpNngJa8Dc), several different S-Video cables (I finally snagged a good set), everything and anything.
The thing that frustrates me is that it's not just the XRGB, I also have to adjust the TV (HDTV) settings as well and it's all just a jumbled mess (Goldeneye is so blurry ).

I also have a really nice Integra AV receiver and connected the Framemeister to it so that I can get surround sound from my systems.
Does having the XRGB connected to the receiver interfere with the video output?
Would I be better sacrificing surround sound and connecting the XRGB directly to the TV (Samsung 55 LED TV)?

Mind you, this issue only arises with the N64. I connected the Saturn via S-video and it looks amazing.

Please let me know your thoughts on the subject and if anyone has a solution.
Thanks to all for all your wisdom!

[Kez]

If you RGB mod your N64, you should get a slight improvement to the overall picture as well as access to deblur functions (though not in Goldeneye I think).

You should be aware there is only so much you can do to improve the N64 picture.. it hasn't aged well at all, especially games like Goldeneye, Turok and Perfect Dark. Looking at videos of the games on YT is misleading as many of them are played using emulators at higher resolution. Without seeing captures of your image it is tough to tell whether there are problems with your setup, or just your expectations!

[nmalinoski]

If you RGB mod your N64, you should get a slight improvement to the overall picture as well as access to deblur functions (though not in Goldeneye I think).

Do keep in mind that you specifically need either a Tim Worthington board, or one of borti's variants. The simple RGB bypass for early NS1 N64s doesn't have any deblur capability.

Alternatively, you can do what I did: get an UltraHDMI installed and skip analogue altogether. The default configuration just works, it has deblur functionality, its scaler can do framerate conversion so you can play PAL games on NTSC consoles and vice versa, and it can be fitted with in-game reset.

[mrwasi]

I have a guy in town that does RGB mods so I may consider that.
I don't really feel like dropping another $250-300 for HDMI mod considering the Framemeister cost me close to $400 back in the day. I'm hoping that a cheaper HDMI solution will come out in the near future for the N64.

Is it possible my AV receiver is interfering with the video signal of the Framemeister?

[Kez]

I have a guy in town that does RGB mods so I may consider that.
I don't really feel like dropping another $250-300 for HDMI mod considering the Framemeister cost me close to $400 back in the day. I'm hoping that a cheaper HDMI solution will come out in the near future for the N64.

As nmalinoski says above, make sure the modder uses boards with deblur if you are interested in that functionality. I wouldn't hold your breath on a cheaper HDMI mod arriving anytime soon.

Is it possible my AV receiver is interfering with the video signal of the Framemeister?

It's possible. There is no reason not to try it direct to the TV and see if there is any improvement.

[nmalinoski]

I have a guy in town that does RGB mods so I may consider that.
I don't really feel like dropping another $250-300 for HDMI mod considering the Framemeister cost me close to $400 back in the day. I'm hoping that a cheaper HDMI solution will come out in the near future for the N64.

Is it possible my AV receiver is interfering with the video signal of the Framemeister?

Most, if not all, N64 games have a horizontal blur applied to them; it's not something that's caused by your AV equipment, it's just the sad reality of the N64.

The RGB mod will definitely be more economical now, especially if you already have a setup that can easily accommodate analogue RGB; but the HDMI solutions are going to be more future-proof and have the benefit of being digital-to-digital solutions.

[Gara]

It's hard to grasp what you're seeing but its probably just the n64. The n64 has aged horribly. I wouldn't call my ultrahdmi a blurry mess but it sure doesn't scale as well as Nes or snes.

The receiver being a possible problem is an easy check. Just plug it in direct. It really shouldn't be causing problems but on the off chance it is there are easy fixes for this. A supported hdmi splitter or audio extractor are easy add-ons. It could be as simple as a setting on your receiver if it's doing some image processing and messing up your image.

[mrwasi]

I'll try it out this weekend with Svid and the XRGB and see what I can get out of it.

but the HDMI solutions are going to be more future-proof and have the benefit of being digital-to-digital solutions.

I like the point @nmalinoski made. I'll bite the bullet and start saving up for an UltraHDMI mod.

Thanks for all the help

[Austin]

I'll try it out this weekend with Svid and the XRGB and see what I can get out of it.

but the HDMI solutions are going to be more future-proof and have the benefit of being digital-to-digital solutions.

I like the point @nmalinoski made. I'll bite the bullet and start saving up for an UltraHDMI mod.

Thanks for all the help

I've heard that the UltraHDMI isn't as impressive as it sounds on paper, at least not for those that already have the N64 running through a FM. I have a UltraHDMI system coming in the next couple of months and I'll definitely be comparing the two side by side. I got it more so for the recording convenience since I can run straight into the capture card, and to ensure I've got the best quality, but it might not be worth the cost of the upgrade if you've already got a FM in the chain.

[nmalinoski]

...but it might not be worth the cost of the upgrade if you've already got a FM in the chain.

This was one point I was trying to make; if you already have a setup that can accommodate RGB, an RGB mod with deblur will be cheaper.

[unmaker]

I've never used a Framemeister but from comparisons I think the OSSC outputs a superior image. If I were you I would sell the fm and get an OSSC which is less expensive. And if you decide to RGB mod your N64 I would recommend either borti's N64RGGv2 or N64Advanced boards. They are not only better designed than Tim's board but they also yield a sharper RGB output since they use a DAC-IC instead of a R2R ladder. Tim's board also does not have input resistors which can cause minor graphical issues. You might also run into issues with ground loops and a dirty 3.3v rail. Borti has designed a PCB for the 3.3v issue:

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/ofIFYk5I

and his other N64 PCB's should you decide to go that route:

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/eR0ukbmw

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/XceXMR8r

[mrwasi]

I have a lot to consider now

[nmalinoski]

I've never used a Framemeister but from comparisons I think the OSSC outputs a superior image. If I were you I would sell the fm and get an OSSC which is less expensive. And if you decide to RGB mod your N64 I would recommend either borti's N64RGGv2 or N64Advanced boards. They are not only better designed than Tim's board but they also yield a sharper RGB output since they use a DAC-IC instead of a R2R ladder. Tim's board also does not have input resistors which can cause minor graphical issues. You might also run into issues with ground loops and a dirty 3.3v rail. Borti has designed a PCB for the 3.3v issue

The problem I have with borti's boards is that they don't seem to be readily-available. Tim Worthington has boards ready-to-go with distributors in both Australia and the US, while borti's boards (superior as they may be) seem to be entirely DIY, where you have to order your own PCBs, your own parts, and do assembly yourself; I've yet to find anyone selling pre-made N64RGBv2 or N64Advanced boards.

[mrwasi]

The place I'm considering going to does the Nintendo 64 RGB Mod THS7314
Will this be suitable?

[maxtherabbit]

The place I'm considering going to does the Nintendo 64 RGB Mod THS7314
Will this be suitable?

as long as your console supports such a mod, yes

only north american launch models do, iirc

[nmalinoski]

The place I'm considering going to does the Nintendo 64 RGB Mod THS7314
Will this be suitable?

as long as your console supports such a mod, yes

only north american launch models do, iirc

Do keep in mind that, aside from the limited compatibility, those cheap RGB bypass boards have no deblur capability, so I don't think you're going to see much difference compared to S-Video. (Better colors, certainly, but will still be as blurry.)

[maxtherabbit]

The place I'm considering going to does the Nintendo 64 RGB Mod THS7314
Will this be suitable?

as long as your console supports such a mod, yes

only north american launch models do, iirc

Do keep in mind that, aside from the limited compatibility, those cheap RGB bypass boards have no deblur capability, so I don't think you're going to see much difference compared to S-Video. (Better colors, certainly, but will still be as blurry.)

I have to disagree. RGB is significantly better than s video. Just as much on a n64 as any other console. The deblur mods really only look good on some games anyway

[strayan]

Some patched and deblurred games look pixelated but still razer sharp. Here is a close-up of ISS 98: https://imgur.com/a/IAwLwsu

This is running at 720p using with an ultra hdmi mod. Also bear in mind it is being displayed on a 40inch TV with perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. It also runs through an HDMI to VGA converter (because the TV does not support 1:1 pixel map using the HDMI-in.)

IMHO this is approaching the best the N64 will ever look (although I’d like to test the 1200p mode on a IPS monitor using an hdmi to dvi cable).

Other games still look blurry.

Added Goldeneye for reference https://imgur.com/a/IAwLwsu