High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I occasionally see these heavy TVs listed for sale. I'm still unsure about their ideal use though. Besides Gamecube or Dreamcast gaming, what else are they good for? 15khz with high TVL? I haven't built a arcade cabinet before, but those large tubes seem worthy of saving. I saw another fine pitch 4:3 TV recently...
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FinalBaton
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
The Hi-Scan and Super Fine Pitch Sony Wegas are 1080i sets. They will upscale all lower res signals to 1080i (with input lag), so they're not recommended for 240p stuff.
Some models(don't remember which ones) can display 480p sources pretty much unscaled and looking very good, but there is a black border around the image(since it's a 480p image in a 540p frame) and there's noticeable input lag in this mode, since there's some processing going. Don't know if you can use this mode for 480i, I would guess not.
Some people seem to like those setsfor 480p stuff (although 480p works well on many other solutions too, like modern flat panels and PC crt). But the main attract of these TVs seem to be playing widescreen games from the 480p/720p/1080i gen, and the sets you're looking at are 4:3. IMO Hi-Scan and SFP sets kinda loose one of their big selling point(being a widescreen crt) when they're st 4:3 AR. I know that if I had a Hi-Scan of Super Fine Pitch, it would definitely be a widescreen variant. I personally don't see much appeal in a 4:3 one. But if you like playing 6th and 7th gen games in 4:3, then forget about what I just said in this paragraph
Some models(don't remember which ones) can display 480p sources pretty much unscaled and looking very good, but there is a black border around the image(since it's a 480p image in a 540p frame) and there's noticeable input lag in this mode, since there's some processing going. Don't know if you can use this mode for 480i, I would guess not.
Some people seem to like those setsfor 480p stuff (although 480p works well on many other solutions too, like modern flat panels and PC crt). But the main attract of these TVs seem to be playing widescreen games from the 480p/720p/1080i gen, and the sets you're looking at are 4:3. IMO Hi-Scan and SFP sets kinda loose one of their big selling point(being a widescreen crt) when they're st 4:3 AR. I know that if I had a Hi-Scan of Super Fine Pitch, it would definitely be a widescreen variant. I personally don't see much appeal in a 4:3 one. But if you like playing 6th and 7th gen games in 4:3, then forget about what I just said in this paragraph
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BazookaBen
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
Not much, they only display 33.75kHz resolutions, so 540p and 1080i. Everything else is scaled or processed in some way.
It centers 480p images in the 540p raster, then stretches the raster to bring it to full screen. This looks good. but still has two frames of lag I believe.
720p is downscaled to 1080i and looks ok but is even more laggy than 480p.
There are better ways to play 480p PS2/Gamecube games though. I play them on a PC CRT. Other people play them on modern flat panels. Both are better than Hi-Scan Sony's. SFP Sony's have much better color and sharpness than the Hi-scans, but otherwise have the same issues with lag and scaling.
So yeah, stay away unless you have extra space and are just curious. Otherwise get a standard 15kHz CRT and play Dreamcast and later systems on your computer monitor or TV.
It centers 480p images in the 540p raster, then stretches the raster to bring it to full screen. This looks good. but still has two frames of lag I believe.
720p is downscaled to 1080i and looks ok but is even more laggy than 480p.
There are better ways to play 480p PS2/Gamecube games though. I play them on a PC CRT. Other people play them on modern flat panels. Both are better than Hi-Scan Sony's. SFP Sony's have much better color and sharpness than the Hi-scans, but otherwise have the same issues with lag and scaling.
So yeah, stay away unless you have extra space and are just curious. Otherwise get a standard 15kHz CRT and play Dreamcast and later systems on your computer monitor or TV.
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I think there might have been a Sony edtv crt that could display 480p natively but it was 16:9.
There were some 480p LCD edtv's too but none of them are ideal.
I like 480p stuff best on my tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It's ideal for Dreamcast stuff as it's a drop in replacement for Naomi cabs.
My old XM29 did a nice job with 480p too.
It's annoying that Sony ignored the needs of gamers with their HD 4:3 CRTs. Scaling almost always looks worse than native resolutions and there was no need for the compromise on a CRT.
There were some 480p LCD edtv's too but none of them are ideal.
I like 480p stuff best on my tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It's ideal for Dreamcast stuff as it's a drop in replacement for Naomi cabs.
My old XM29 did a nice job with 480p too.
It's annoying that Sony ignored the needs of gamers with their HD 4:3 CRTs. Scaling almost always looks worse than native resolutions and there was no need for the compromise on a CRT.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I had one of those Sony 16:9 widescreen CRT's that upscaled everything to 1080i. It made 480i games look amazing. If you're favorite games are 480i PS2 games, it might be a great choice. Everything else would probably look better on a regular 480i TV (that processes 240p correctly).
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I would say that 720p video and game content (PS3, WiiU, a lot of Switch, etc.) looked by far the best on a Sony widescreen HD CRT I had (KV-34HS420). Nothing beats it. Anything 720p looked better on it than on a 2018 4K OLED and even a D24 BVM (though this one has color accuracy and much better geometry and convergence, of course).
This was setting all HDMI input to 720p. When that TV received 1080i it had flagging at the bottom for some reason. But I guess technically it was upscaling 720p to 1080i. In any case, one of these is totally worth it for that kind of content. For everything below and above 720p there's better options.
This was setting all HDMI input to 720p. When that TV received 1080i it had flagging at the bottom for some reason. But I guess technically it was upscaling 720p to 1080i. In any case, one of these is totally worth it for that kind of content. For everything below and above 720p there's better options.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
The one that I had considered is becoming fairly rare - the Sony super fine pitch 36" 4:3 CRT. I guess it's just not practical though. I don't mind hearing from people who have experimented with the Sony 4:3 high scan sets, or similar TV's. Do they all use the same upscaling circuitry? No use for the CRT itself? That particular TV probably has one of the highest TVL with a 4:3 36" tube...
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
Every one I've used scales to 1080i, or a bizarre 540p (which is the same, save for half of a line). When you give it a 480p source via Component or "DVI" ( which gets converted to YPbPr internally with a little sub board ), it captures the 480p signal into a framebuffer, which it then renders in the center of a 540p buffer, with "letterboxing". Finally, the 540p framebuffer is scanned out with significant vertical overscan, which allows the centered 480p image to fill the screen. It's a goofy yet kind of clever way they avoided making a multi-scan monitor at all, as it only has to scan at one horizontal frequency.
Unfortunately, it's a triple-buffered system, so you can look forward to the usual caveats of floating input lag, and occasional stutter as "the jump" is made for framerate conversion.
In theory, you could inject a 540p or 1080i VGA signal into this TV for a lagless display. I experimented a little with injection but found it to be very picky and didn't pursue it for very long once I figured out what the deal was with this 540p buffer shit.
I did a lag test on a KV-32HS500; here it's being given a 480p signal coming out of an XRGB2 or 3 in line doubling mode (with no more than a line of latency). I've had a 32HS510 before, and it's more or less the same situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73lR0VSZkAU
Unfortunately, it's a triple-buffered system, so you can look forward to the usual caveats of floating input lag, and occasional stutter as "the jump" is made for framerate conversion.
In theory, you could inject a 540p or 1080i VGA signal into this TV for a lagless display. I experimented a little with injection but found it to be very picky and didn't pursue it for very long once I figured out what the deal was with this 540p buffer shit.
I did a lag test on a KV-32HS500; here it's being given a 480p signal coming out of an XRGB2 or 3 in line doubling mode (with no more than a line of latency). I've had a 32HS510 before, and it's more or less the same situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73lR0VSZkAU
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
The 36" Trinitron had S-video, component, and HDMI video input options. I don't see a reason to aquire one so far, especially since moving 230 lbs is difficult. No PC VGA or D-sub inputs were available on the Trinitron TV's as far as I know. A custom chassis would be interesting, but probably non-existent.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
Pretty much 6th Gen + Wii only.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I probably won't get that 36" model, unless it's confirmed to work well at 480p versus newer tech. Service menu settings may help but would be complicated. The other inexpensive option for me would be the occasional 480p plasma sets that are posted, although they're always low-average quality widescreen versions.
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BazookaBen
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I used a PC with my HS set with an Audio Authority 9A60 to convert VGA to component. It allowed me to run 540p as well as weird stuff like 864i @ 72hz for even frame pacing on movies.
But depending on what you want to play, a more modern TV or monitor would look better in almost every aspect. Especially considering how OLED prices are slowly dropping, and Micro-LED tv's are coming out next year. Both technologies blow CRT out of the water, especially when they start including strobing modes to get equivalent motion clarity to CRT (haven't seen this yet unfortunately)
But depending on what you want to play, a more modern TV or monitor would look better in almost every aspect. Especially considering how OLED prices are slowly dropping, and Micro-LED tv's are coming out next year. Both technologies blow CRT out of the water, especially when they start including strobing modes to get equivalent motion clarity to CRT (haven't seen this yet unfortunately)
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I have this set, the KD-36XS955, and use it with the OSSC for everything up to Xbox 360. Yes, there is 2 frames of lag but the lagless line-doubling the OSSC provides makes it not noticeable to my eyes. Definitely not worse most HD sets. You can get lag free gaming at 1080i with some settings in the service menu that bypass the filtering circuitry. Supposedly works with 540p as well but then you'd need a device that can output at that setting, so far only PCs w/ custom resolutions can. The color and blacks are fantastic and its hard to find any other CRTS in this size and price range that can handle 480p content. The downsides are that it weighs 300 lbs and like was previously mentioned, most OLEDs are catching up in performance. If you can get it for free and have the space and friends to carry it it's worth checking out.Nogame wrote:The one that I had considered is becoming fairly rare - the Sony super fine pitch 36" 4:3 CRT. I guess it's just not practical though. I don't mind hearing from people who have experimented with the Sony 4:3 high scan sets, or similar TV's. Do they all use the same upscaling circuitry? No use for the CRT itself? That particular TV probably has one of the highest TVL with a 4:3 36" tube...
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BazookaBen
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
Not sure if the OSSC could ever do this without some sort of frame buffer, but if you had something that could center a 480p or line-doubled 240p/480i image inside a 540p/1080i raster, then you could use the Sony's service menu to stretch it to full screen. You'd have lagless 480p and 960i at that point. Actual 1080i inputs would be severely overscanned after you did this, but the trade off would be worth it.ShadowofBob wrote: Supposedly works with 540p as well but then you'd need a device that can output at that setting, so far only PCs w/ custom resolutions can.
I made a custom 480p mode on my PC that was basically this, just to try it out for some 480p shmups on PC. Looked and felt great.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
The widescreen models are still awesome for movie nights (XBR910, XBR960). Integrated audio probably sounds better than your surround sound system too (seriously: HT reviewers complained about this since you couldn’t connect them to your receiver).
I’ve been gaming on my XBR910 since 2003 because it was the only widescreen HD CRT Circuit City had which would not force me to stretch 480p GameCube games to 16:9 (one of the benefits of a “laggy” internal scaler). It was an awesome set for Wii, PS3, and the like, but it has some serious overscan. You can’t see the menus along the bottom in most Blu-Ray movies. It seems this was done on purpose so that 480p 4:3 would fit properly in the middle of the screen.
Though it ‘s definitely better suited to modern systems, I played a lot of NES, SNES, and N64 on this TV as well. Goldeneye 007 with S-Video and anamorphic widescreen was still pretty cool to me in 2003.
It’s pretty picky about digital input timings to the point that Sony out-right says it doesn’t support PCs. I have three SFP Trinitrons (1x16:9; 2x4:3) now and none of them work with Hi-Def NES, UltraHDMI, or Super Nt (well, Hi-Def NES works in 640x480). PlayStation 3, on the other hand, can do 480p, 720p, or 1080i over the digital inputs just fine. Makes you wonder why Kevtris and MarshallH bothered with that HDMI Analyzer they were passing around.
I’ve been gaming on my XBR910 since 2003 because it was the only widescreen HD CRT Circuit City had which would not force me to stretch 480p GameCube games to 16:9 (one of the benefits of a “laggy” internal scaler). It was an awesome set for Wii, PS3, and the like, but it has some serious overscan. You can’t see the menus along the bottom in most Blu-Ray movies. It seems this was done on purpose so that 480p 4:3 would fit properly in the middle of the screen.
Though it ‘s definitely better suited to modern systems, I played a lot of NES, SNES, and N64 on this TV as well. Goldeneye 007 with S-Video and anamorphic widescreen was still pretty cool to me in 2003.
It’s pretty picky about digital input timings to the point that Sony out-right says it doesn’t support PCs. I have three SFP Trinitrons (1x16:9; 2x4:3) now and none of them work with Hi-Def NES, UltraHDMI, or Super Nt (well, Hi-Def NES works in 640x480). PlayStation 3, on the other hand, can do 480p, 720p, or 1080i over the digital inputs just fine. Makes you wonder why Kevtris and MarshallH bothered with that HDMI Analyzer they were passing around.
Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
I don't recommend any of the so called HD crt's for gaming personally, although the picture is outstanding for films, for gaming best just stick to your traditional non hd crt. Either go for some great Shadow Mask tube if you miss the look from the pre 90's or Aperture Grille tube if you were fond of those high end crt's from the later 90's and early 00's. If you want Aperture Grille try finding a great Sony set (my preference goes with the FV300) or one of those later European Panasonic sets.
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BazookaBen
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Re: High-scan 4:3 CRT TV uses
What's funny is that they're the opposite over the component connection. They're super flexible.CZroe wrote:It’s pretty picky about digital input timings to the point that Sony out-right says it doesn’t support PCs.
When had one, I had a 864i @ 72hz mode for watching movies.
I wish I still had it, because I have a suspicion that they would actually work with AMD's Freesync, since there was always zero delay when switching supported resolutions over the component connection (as long as they were 33.75kHz horizontal). I believe I read that Freesync works by maintaining horizontal frequency while changing vertical, which is exactly how your can run different resolutions and vertical refresh rates on Sony tubes.