4th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[Shatterhand]

I don't think I am making a "Nostalgia chart", as Cotton Boomerang and Gigawing are 2 games that I've been playing with some consistency.

And I didn't get how you, Rando, linked that quote of mine with my ""Eat shit cave" signature (Which was just a joke, and still got the nerve of some people it seems... so much for cave fanboyism )

But I agree with everything else you said...

[Ganelon]

Hmm, older games are typically much longer and less distinct visually, so it is harder to memorize these points, especially when this tactic is used multiple times a stage. But even once is still annoying and it's a garbage challenge with no thought but "think you can dodge this in .01 seconds heh."

Again, when you've practiced the game enough, you do tend to remember the locations despite the game's length. It's harder when the background is the same spacefield and the enemies are similar but certainly not too difficult to distinguish. But I guess if you're not interested in a certain game period, then nothing will make much impression on you.

And as Bydobasher said, this technique should serve to keep new folks away from the very bottom of the screen. If they're afraid of enemies from behind, they're forced to stop playing so defensively and increase their risk towards the middle of the screen, which makes these enemies a useful and interesting design decision.

[raiden]

But even once is still annoying and it's a garbage challenge with no thought but "think you can dodge this in .01 seconds heh."

beg to differ. I love classic ships from behind in Toaplan games, Raiden series and every other game that uses them in a similar way. The point is even when you know where the danger comes, the level design challenges you to make a decision every time, because there is a point where you can kill all oncoming enemies quickly, but are endangered very much by this one ship from behind, and there is another point where the ship from behind doesn´t have a chance, but the screen fills with enemies while you´re waiting on it. And in between these two points are ways to fine-tune your strategy every time you play the game.

I think games from companies that share a similar style of gameplay suffer from this too, albeit not quite as much. But I know that I have fewer Cave and Psikyo titles on my list than I wanted to, because I thought it would be better to have some diversity.

Well, I think it´s a good thing, because diversity is what belongs in such a poll. I mean, you made your decision when voting, didn´t you? You could have voted every instance of a series, but dropped that because you found your preferences weren´t represented with such a vote. So your vote is correct after all.

I still think Apidya and Space Manbow would get a lot more of votes (Apidya got a lot more this year) if people actually played them. I personally think both games are a MUCH, but MUCH better than, say, Salamander, and taking a look at the votes, it makes me think that nearly everyone who actually PLAYED both games also think this way.

sorry, but every time you say this, I´m forced to mention that I played Apidya and didn´t like it at all. It wouldn´t even make my top100, hell, not even my top500.

[Shatterhand]

You are the only one I know that didn't like Apidya...... but I bet you would like Space Manbow

[captain ahar]

You are the only one I know that didn't like Apidya...... but I bet you would like Space Manbow

this is the first time i've seen a mod bait... let alone this suavely. congrats.



... and Space Manbow stomps on Apidya.

[Randorama]

I don't see a reason why this is all that out of the way, especially considering how I remember games like Bangai-O appearing in the top lists before.

Because this is a dedicated forum, and if you can't bother to do a few more clicks and post your infos somewhere else, proposing to make a dedicated forum as a non-dedicated forum would, obviously, defeat the purpose. There are general chat rooms for random conversation, where you can hang with people and talk about how awesome are things are in the universe. It is actually offensive, to a limited extent, that such a point must be made clear to someone who's older than 5, honestly.

[Dale]

Quick question could Paperboy be considered a shmup? I think it should. It,s just like Zaxxon.

[captain ahar]

Quick question could Paperboy be considered a shmup? I think it should. It,s just like Zaxxon.

quoted for fun... and the love of pete.

[Ed Oscuro]

Quick question could Paperboy be considered a shmup? I think it should. It,s just like Zaxxon.

I see what you did there.

And yeah. Naturally.

[Rob]

That's why I long ago learned to play horis in the middle of the screen instead of at the edge.

That's why I long ago learned to not play horis. Not really, but hey. The safest distance between the ship and the enemies is the farthest distance. A periodic reminder that they can, in fact, program enemies from behind is to me a very uncreative and tedious obstacle. Then again I usually like games where I can fly through enemy craft.

[Bydobasher]

Rob, I'm a little bit confused. You acknowledge that "the safest distance between the ship and the enemies is the farthest distance", and you know that in horis, enemies often come at you from the back as well as from the front. So isn't it obvious then that you should start playing closer to the middle?

I would say that (very generally) I'm about 1/3 screenwidth from the left side of the screen in a hori -- thereby accounting for the fact that more stuff arrives from the front than from the back, but allowing myself enough time and space to react should something fire at me from behind.

This wasn't a particularly conscious decision on my part. In the same way that verts often have a way of "pushing" the player to the bottom of the screen, horis have a way of "pushing" the player to the middle.

[Rob]

You acknowledge that "the safest distance between the ship and the enemies is the farthest distance", and you know that in horis, enemies often come at you from the back as well as from the front. So isn't it obvious then that you should start playing closer to the middle?

I'm not sure why you're assuming horizontals, because I've been recalling instances in verticals to generate my disgust. But yeah, I know to not be in the place of an enemy as it enters the screen and to uncross my eyes while playing.

Space to maneuver and time to react is good and excting. Opening the player up to potshots and challenging by knowing a tugboat obstacle is approaching not so much. The story might be a little different if the hitboxes weren't so huge, but there's a definite breaking point with restricted maneuverability, a large hitbox and fast aimed shots that many old shooters toy with. It's a part of an overall problem, so just addressing it (in isolation) is not enough. It's like falling back from damage in platformers with lots of small platforms and spiked pits around them. Wouldn't be much of a problem without the spikes.

[xaer0knight]

Quick question could Paperboy be considered a shmup? I think it should. It,s just like Zaxxon.

I see what you did there.

And yeah. Naturally.

Great point LOL... Ed go back to digitpress.com forums LOL

[xaer0knight]

I don't see a reason why this is all that out of the way, especially considering how I remember games like Bangai-O appearing in the top lists before.

Because this is a dedicated forum, and if you can't bother to do a few more clicks and post your infos somewhere else, proposing to make a dedicated forum as a non-dedicated forum would, obviously, defeat the purpose. There are general chat rooms for random conversation, where you can hang with people and talk about how awesome are things are in the universe. It is actually offensive, to a limited extent, that such a point must be made clear to someone who's older than 5, honestly.

IMHO... certain things people say can make them 5 when the make a great point? didnt Bangai-O show up on this List? and isnt Bangai-O considered a SHMUP? then again everyone has there "own view" that defines SHMUPS.

[Randorama]

IMHO... certain things people say can make them 5 when the make a great point? didnt Bangai-O show up on this List? and isnt Bangai-O considered a SHMUP? then again everyone has there "own view" that defines SHMUPS.

No, i refuse to even consider "own views". It is straightforward, if you happen to grasp the notion of "public", that "own views" would generate an infinite amount of relativism, like people saying that spit competitions are after all shmups. So, albeit an official definition of shmups doesn't exist (because i lack the money to register it in the ISO 9000 system), games that don't really mix with the "move your sprite with the joystick only, shoot bullets that destroy enemies with a limited amount of ammo" definition (and definitions generate Sets, in basic logic terms), are best left to the Off-topic forum.

It is also annoying that the systematic and repetitive complain about " this forum should not be genre-specific" comes from people that don't really play shmups enough to appreciate the benefits of specialization.

Finally, Bangai-O is a fuzzy case (out of 400?) because it simulates gravity effects WITHOUT a jump button. I will try to define a boole algebra to arbitrate on what's a shmup at later time, i promise

[Bydobasher]

I'm not sure why you're assuming horizontals, because I've been recalling instances in verticals to generate my disgust.

Which games are you thinking about?

[louisg]

Because this is a dedicated forum, and if you can't bother to do a few more clicks and post your infos somewhere else, proposing to make a dedicated forum as a non-dedicated forum would, obviously, defeat the purpose. There are general chat rooms for random conversation, where you can hang with people and talk about how awesome are things are in the universe. It is actually offensive, to a limited extent, that such a point must be made clear to someone who's older than 5, honestly.

Maybe I am older than 5, yet am not compelled to act harder core than everyone else because, clearly, hard core posturing is the mark of maturity =) I'm hardly proposing a random conversation, and thanks for only replying to a small section of my post since the rest of it would have quickly invalidated your amazingly snotty reply. But oh well, now you can lump me in with the "hopeless mainstreamers" who don't understand that the only true shooters are made by Cave, Psikyo, and Treasure.

[Rob]

Which games are you thinking about?

Bad ones!

[Bydobasher]

You can't be any more specific than that?

I'm really curious, because when I think of this kind of thing, I think of horis, not verts particularly.

[Rob]

ok: TRUXTON

[Ganelon]

Heh, that's exactly what I thought you were talking about as soon as you mentioned the "longer" and "less distinct" parts, and so I mentioned the "same spacefield." The series bores me to pieces too...

[Shatterhand]

But oh well, now you can lump me in with the "hopeless mainstreamers" who don't understand that the only true shooters are made by Cave, Psikyo, and Treasure.

And Raizing and Compile.

[louisg]

But oh well, now you can lump me in with the "hopeless mainstreamers" who don't understand that the only true shooters are made by Cave, Psikyo, and Treasure.

And Raizing and Compile.

Nope! They don't count!

[Blade]

You forget the rare gems that are from Banpresto!

[Turrican]

(although it must be said, that among periods there's the Renaissance and the Early Middle Age... They are periods, yet there's a difference).

Well...they're just shmups. But seriously enough, it's very reactionary (extreme right wing, i mean) to evoke the idea that "past=golden age, present=Damnation". I shiver at the thought, personally.

Bah... How can you label a concept like the golden past to the extreme right wing. You clearly have no clue about oriental philosophy nor about K'ung-fu-tzu. Unless you'd imply that every conservative thought is automatically fascism

But anyway, it was the same thing I was saying:

imho, it's frankly quite absurd that the age when shooters were produced for the home market is nowadays seen as a period of decadence.

Too bad you took it for victimism...

[Neon]

Bah... How can you label a concept like the golden past to the extreme right wing.

I think Henry Ford went as far as establishing a community outside Detroit that was Jew-free and 50 years in the past. I hear the same sort of thing on the conservative talk radio my boss (and by default, me) listens to..."OMG, the 50's were perfect!" They said minus the racism, to be fair.

I'll research the stuff you mentioned, though.

[Ganelon]

C'mon now; Wade-Giles sucks ass.

But that right-wing comment makes no sense whatsoever. What about present-day hippies who want a return to the 60's? Still too reactionary for you?

[doctorx0079]

This is all way way OT. You don't want to get me started on what is or isn't right wing. Trust me.

[louisg]

I hear Henry Ford started an arcade too, and it was all Compile and Red games.

[xaer0knight]

But oh well, now you can lump me in with the "hopeless mainstreamers" who don't understand that the only true shooters are made by Cave, Psikyo, and Treasure.

And Raizing and Compile.

hey your forgeting the awesome Shareware house ABA Games. Also forgot Shanghai Alice.. PC shmups kick ass