Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Rob]

Spoiler

Did we ever do this to Honduras? How many more millions in aid in addition to the millions in aid they already receive does the small nation of Honduras need to become self-sufficient and raise itself above the status of eternal asylee factory? They are never going to have a standard of living to match America's and that should not itself be a golden ticket to America.

[Hagane]

Besides controlling it as a virtual puppet state through US companies, taking away all their riches and resources and removing and placing leaders as you please, you guys didn't do anything to Honduras, no.

I wonder if people who complain about Honduran migrants would be fine if all the predatory US capitals and companies were driven out of Honduras, and all other Latin American countries. Everyone in their place, right? US intervention in Latin America is the main reason the area is the way it is now.

[Rob]

US intervention in Latin America is the main reason the area is the way it is now.

In the wildest dreams of its most ardent excuse makers, what would Latin America be like without America's touch of death? California minus Silicon Valley?

[Hagane]

We would be industrialized countries, with our own capitalists, for starters. Each and every time we had Nationalistic / progressive governments they were overthrown by US funded coups to keep us as cheap resource providers and to reduce the possibilities of Soviet influx since they saw industralization as encouraging those ideologies among working classes. The US actively funded, supported and even trained most Latin American military dictatorships, formed by agrarian elites that benefited from the US plans in mantaining these countries agrarian.

Maybe you could read a bit on "Condor Plan", "School of the Americas", the actions of companies like Standard Oil and the United Fruit Company, the Monroe Doctrine and other such things before posting any other ignorant comments on the subject.

[Rob]

Do you think the Monroe Doctrine is a reason people are fleeing Honduras in 2018?

[Hagane]

Do you think a foreign super power controlling your economy and government for most of your existence doesn't lead to terrible consequences?

[Zen]

"Marshall Plan"

Dear God, not that old chestnut!

One would have to be pretty naive to believe that The Marshall Plan was responsible for "rebuilding" Europe.
European nations, "rebuilt" what had already been.

The Marshall plan, like NATO, represented an investment in American "interests", within Europe.

If it is being proposed, that if an investment on the scale that The Marshall plan was alleged to have been, was applied to "Latin American countries",
would result in anything even vaguely resembling Europe's rapid return to form, post WWII, then, gentlemen, we have truly entered "Wakandan" territory.

[quash]

As you all know, I am not one to overlook the doings of the CIA. No doubt they had a hand in the current state of affairs in Honduras and elsewhere.

However, it is more than a little tiring to hear the same old excuses about how if only the US hadn't intervened, things would be different. Part of the reason the CIA targets the countries they do is the history of corruption, downtrodden populace, etc. It's a lot easier to topple a standing government when it's on its last legs. When you go for enemies with full health, you end up with 6+ years of continuous, unresolved conflict in Syria, for example.

With the situation at hand, we have to ask some important questions. First and foremost: if these people really hate the US backed government in Honduras so much, why are they hellbent on going to the US? Additionally, if they're legitimately seeking asylum, why did they reject the offer from the Mexican government to grant it to them? Also, assuming they're allowed in the country, what are we going to do with these people? What about the inevitable criminals (in their own country, mind you) in the mix? Does anyone have a plan for any of this?

[Hagane]

The only things that gets tiring is hearing US people making excuses for a long history of imperialism and resource depredation and masquerading it as "toppling corrupt governments and dictators" or the funniest one, "defending democracy". Especially when that involves funding religious lunatics. Ever wonder why Syrians didn't migrate before the US/European fuckups? Because the "evil dictator" you guys wanted to get rid of was doing a decent job at leading a functional country, and kept the Islamic extremists in check, necessary to not regress to the middle ages.

But now the blame is on the people running for their lives from your bombs and the loons you funded, not on the ones that destroyed a country for their own interests. Then you wonder why most of the world despises you when you only help everyone! Such ingrates.

[Mischief Maker]

They arrested the bomber! It was Tom Perez the whole time!!!

Oh wait, no. It was a straight-out-of-central-casting middle age MAGA chud with a van completely covered in right-wing bumper stickers.

I fucking wish the Democratic establishment was as crafty and machiavellian as the fever swamps make them out to be. Probably the most damning thing out of all of this is the guy was sending bombs to actors but didn't even think of sending one to Chuck Schumer.

The only things that gets tiring is hearing US people making excuses for a long history of imperialism and resource depredation and masquerading it as "toppling corrupt governments and dictators" or the funniest one, "defending democracy". Especially when that involves funding religious lunatics. Ever wonder why Syrians didn't migrate before the US/European fuckups? Because the "evil dictator" you guys wanted to get rid of was doing a decent job at leading a functional country, and kept the Islamic extremists in check, necessary to not regress to the middle ages.

But now the blame is on the people running for their lives from your bombs and the loons you funded, not on the ones that destroyed a country for their own interests. Then you wonder why most of the world despises you when you only help everyone! Such ingrates.

I remember seeing a roundtable with Thomas Frank a little ways into the current administration where a speaker from Latin America (I forget where) said that on an emotional level she liked the Trump presidency because the US finally had the kind of fascist wingnut in charge that the CIA had been installing in Latin American countries for years.

[quash]

The only things that gets tiring is hearing US people making excuses for a long history of imperialism and resource depredation and masquerading it as "toppling corrupt governments and dictators" or the funniest one, "defending democracy". Especially when that involves funding religious lunatics. Ever wonder why Syrians didn't migrate before the US/European fuckups? Because the "evil dictator" you guys wanted to get rid of was doing a decent job at leading a functional country, and kept the Islamic extremists in check, necessary to not regress to the middle ages.

But now the blame is on the people running for their lives from your bombs and the loons you funded, not on the ones that destroyed a country for their own interests. Then you wonder why most of the world despises you when you only help everyone! Such ingrates.

Would you mind pointing out where I did either of those things?

I certainly don't excuse what the CIA has done to South America, but at the same time, I am realistic about the alternatives: Soviet subversion, or, being left to their own devices, something to the same effect. Going off of history and voting patterns alone, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to reach.

Moreover, I don't blame the people coming here. My questions were rhetorical because this entire thing reeks of NGO involvement, much like the "Syrian" migration model.

Assad is indeed a good leader for Syria, as evidenced by the fact that he has yet to be ousted, much to the dismay of the CIA and others. It kinda goes with what I'm saying though about them typically favoring soft targets like most countries in SA are/were.

If it were up to me, I'd disband the CIA tomorrow. However, given that they have the entire government and much of the so-called private sector of the world's most powerful nation at their disposal, I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Rob]

It was a straight-out-of-central-casting middle age MAGA chud with a van completely covered in right-wing bumper stickers.

Native tribes distancing themselves from kooks is the special theme of October.

Many of Sayoc’s tweets describe him as part of the “unconquered Seminole Tribe.” However, the Seminole Nation has issued a statement announcing that he is not, and never was, a member of their tribe.

[quash]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... 5cdea06484

What did Jeff Bezos mean by this?

[BryanM]

That's an ancient conversation lots of people had back in the venerated year of 2016. That it was wrong to call Trump a fascist or compare him to Hitler - fascism is an ideology, and Hitler believed in stuff. Trump isn't a rube that drinks his own koolaid - the primary, peripheral, and entirety of, his political concerns are his bank account. Like most of our politicians.

Remember when there were those who said he wouldn't be a neocon, despite the oodles of cash you can get from being one? Non-neocon Trump, with noted non-neocon This Guy in charge of his foreign policy:



Here in 2018 we're still shaking our heads at how the democrats want to out-SJW the super-SJW republicans as an election strategy instead of doing anything to upset the donors. I thought there was almost an entire month there they were doing somewhat ok, but then Steve No-neck told them to cut it out and they did.

This strategy doesn't, can't, and won't work because of this thing called numbers. White SJW's vastly outnumber the other versions of SJW's. The only race you can effectively weaponize is the majority race.

[Mischief Maker]

Hey, speaking of fighting back against US-backed coups in Latin America putting fascist goons in power in order to open your country for exploitation by US corporations...

Brazilian shmups posters, don't forget to vote for Fernando Haddad today!

Lula Livre!

[Durandal]

Hey, speaking of fighting back against US-backed coups in Latin America putting fascist goons in power in order to open your country for exploitation by US corporations...

I'm not too familiar with the pros of cons of being bought in by either the US or China.

[Domino]

Hey, speaking of fighting back against US-backed coups in Latin America putting fascist goons in power in order to open your country for exploitation by US corporations...

Brazilian shmups posters, don't forget to vote for Fernando Haddad today!

Lula Livre!

In general, people in other countries don't like people who don't live in their country to tell them how to vote.

[Rob]

Hey, speaking of fighting back against US-backed coups in Latin America putting fascist goons in power in order to open your country for exploitation by US corporations...

Brazilian shmups posters, don't forget to vote for Fernando Haddad today!

Lula Livre!

I have good news.

[Mischief Maker]

I have good news.

Well Mr. Conservative "environmentalist," are you psyched about Bolsonaro's plans for the Amazon Rain Forest?

[Domino]

I have good news.

Well Mr. Conservative "environmentalist," are you psyched about Bolsonaro's plans for the Amazon Rain Forest?

Are you Brazilian?

[Mischief Maker]

No, I am not Brazilian. It's part of the reason I've been biting my tongue these last couple weeks.

Nevertheless am I capable of seeing that Lula da Silva, the wildly popular front runner with a two-digit lead over Bolsonaro getting thrown into prison on a bullshit charge and placed into solitary confinement and not allowed to give any interview to the press, leaving Haddad just a handful of weeks to create a presidential campaign on his own, while meanwhile Bolsonaro, a fascist worse than Trump, was buddying up with Steve Bannon and using whatsapp to spread fake news on the eve of the election, is a fucked up situation and one that I'd want to give some tiny show of international solidarity to those struggling against it?

Or do you want to turn this into pure identity politics and scold me for not staying in my lane?

[BryanM]

I wish *my* country could even get to the stage of electing a president good enough that the machine can toss into jail immediately after.

Kind of sad that's the most I can bring myself to fantasize about. Here in reality I'm sure Clinton will win the nomination again and blow the election again and this thread will be an endless rehash of all the same tired shit again.

[Ed Oscuro]

We're well beyond the end stages of leftist tribal cannibalism if demonizing Clinton is still a thing. She's nothing but a figurehead for nostalgic fundraisers at this point, and it's precious to be worrying that she would lock the election again.

We should be worried that a Clinton Lite will capture the nomination, instead. I saw Cory Booker give a speech a week ago, and all he did was rehash the same old Democratic talking points that don't grow the party. In other words, he would make an excellent President.

Of course I don't want the party to "grow" like Trump grows his party, but I agree with Fareed Zakaria's latest op-ed on "the bloody crossroads" of politics and culture.

One would have to be pretty naive to believe that The Marshall Plan was responsible for "rebuilding" Europe.
European nations, "rebuilt" what had already been.

Quite so, but even back then it took liquidity to buy things, and lend-bought machinery was no doubt helpful in doing the building.

Many countries simply weren't in any kind of financial shape to help. Great Britain was seeing the death of threepence in silver.

[BryanM]

It's weird to pretend anything significant has changed. Everything that is true here in 2018 was still true back in 2016. And a lesser extent back in 2000 and 2004.

In a reasonable world ruled by reasonable reason, yes there should no possibility whatsoever of Clinton winning the nomination. She should get at most 6 or 7% in the primary from insane masochistic lunatics. And withdraw in embarrassment after South Carolina.

That isn't how the world works however. There will still be an absolute minimum of 20% of the primary voters that will stay with her no matter what. It's a cult of personality and self interest of the upper class, just like with Trump. In a large clown car, with Warren, alongside a bunch of younger Pokémon planning to have a career two decades from now who'll lie about supporting Medicare For All and siphoning votes from Sanders, she really could be the nominee again.

It's just a possibility, it's not carved in stone. I'm simply setting my expectations as low as possible here for my well being. Maybe this computer simulation isn't Hellworld. Not getting my hopes up for a second time in my life on that, however.

The Democratic Party is insisting that recent election results are an unmistakable sign that it needs to change course and become far more populist on economics.

Joe Biden’s Platform for 2020: Anti-Populism

[Mischief Maker]

Look, Bernie is my top choice for 2020 as well, but I'm pretty certain that if Warren runs, he won't run, so your scenario of Warren siphoning votes won't happen.

More likely Booker and Harris will be siphoning each others' votes.

I totally understand and share the disdain for Clinton, but why the hell are so many so-called leftists shitting on Warren like she's Joe Manchin with tits?

[Ed Oscuro]

Looks like Trump isn't the only uber-dealmaker in the GOP

A plague of fake libertarians is going to sit on this country's collective nostrils until we stop quibbling over strategy and either run a candidate, or run against this kind of crap. If we had less factional sniping, even Clinton could pull it off, I'm sure

[BryanM]

I'm pretty certain that if Warren runs, he won't run, so your scenario of Warren siphoning votes won't happen.

I'm shocked and appalled at these words. It's up there with "Trump isn't a neocon."

Why do you think Sanders would be okay with throwing away a lifetime's worth of work, six years and millions of dollars of built up name recognition, the support of millions - all alongside his personal belief that he has the best chance of anyone of defeating Trump in an election?

I totally understand and share the disdain for Clinton, but why the hell are so many so-called leftists shitting on Warren like she's Joe Manchin with tits?

She's not Joe Manchin. She's a slightly to moderately better Obama.

On substance. Substantially inferior to him in political skill, however.

[Rob]

Well Mr. Conservative "environmentalist," are you psyched about Bolsonaro's plans for the Amazon Rain Forest?

Brazilians are probably more concerned about crime and can you blame them?

That it was wrong to call Trump a fascist or compare him to Hitler - fascism is an ideology, and Hitler believed in stuff.

It's up there with "Trump isn't a neocon."

Trump doesn't "believe in stuff", but he's a neocon, and many (most?) prominent neocons became Never Trumpers - how does this make any sense to you?

[BryanM]

Never Trumpers

Wow, that's a blast from the past. A failed rhetorical cudgel to try to win a primary election. Only relevant for a couple months around the end of 2015/beginning of 2016. Obsolete and ancient history to anyone who's living in CURRENT YEAR.

Gee, I wonder what these paragons of ethical virtue are gonna be up to in 2020, based on their behavior so far?



Yeah that's what I thought.

[Rob]

A few quotes that I hope can bring us to a mutual understanding of what neoconservatism is and who the notable figures are. First Washington Post, second Haaretz.

But there is, in fact, such a thing as “neocons” (short for neoconservatives); it’s shorthand for intellectuals (many, but far from all of whom, are Jewish) who believe both that the goal of U.S. foreign policy should be to export liberal democracy to the world and that the U.S. should not be terribly hesitant to use force to achieve that goal.

Now try to imagine what a neocon thinks when he hears the words "America First".

In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history.

What do the Bill Kristols of the political world think of Trump in 2018? Bill Kristol building 'war machine' to challenge Trump in 2020 primary. Neocons want everything to do with "exporting democracy" and nothing to do with limiting immigration or anything else that might directly benefit Americans. If Trump did nothing about immigration and nuked Iran, he'd at least look like a neocon.