3DO 240p

[strygo]

A few weeks ago, there was a MLIG video about getting 240p from the 3DO without a mod (here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8sm7v9tdw). I've had a chance to compare the toggle to the mod that doujindance performs and although the toggle is better than the default 480i, in my testing, it's still not as good as the mod. For more details, read on.

For the uninitiated, the 3DO internally renders as 240p, but by default, it converts the video to 480i before being output. At least to me, 480i is a shimmering mess. I shudder when I look at it. That's why I was excited to see last fall that doujindance was selling modded 3DOs that included both RGB and 240p mods. I can't recommend the mod enough. For the concerned, I've opened the unit to install an ODE and the mod is well done, complete with a custom-made circuit board. No glue that I could find.

When I watched the MLIG video, I was surprised to discover that my 3DO had the Mode A / Mode B toggle. Only some versions of the Japanese FZ-1 have this toggle. The toggle aims to switch between 480i and 240p. I was able to test the toggle this morning and compare it with the toggle that comes with the doujindance mod. Mode B is definitely an improvement over Mode A - you are able to see scanlines and the shimmering is reduced. The pixels are still a bit soft however. When I compare this with the mod, the fidelity is lower than the mod.

I don't know enough about how the mod works relative to the mode switch to know why this might be. Does anyone with details of the circuitry have any ideas?

[samson7point1]

Thanks for posting your findings. I recently performed a 240p mod on my FZ-1 and was wondering how it compared to the "official" toggle.

While I can't offer any insight as to how the "official" switch works, one thing you might try is seeing how it interacts with Wolfenstein 3D. If the game still runs at double speed when in 240p, the chances are good it is doing exactly the same thing as the mod. If Wolfenstein runs normally in 240p on the "official" console then it's obviously doing something a bit more complex.

Are the two consoles you're comparing using the same video chip internally? If they aren't, that may account for the difference in image quality.

[Hoagtech]

Are there any modders doing this 240p service?

[strygo]

Are the two consoles you're comparing using the same video chip internally? If they aren't, that may account for the difference in image quality.

Sorry I wasn't clear - I was actually testing both the 240p mod toggle and the Mode switch on the same 3DO.

To clarify your Wolfenstein 3D comment - you're saying that the Mode switch causes its speed to run double and you're wondering whether the mod toggle produces the same result? If so, I will certainly give it a try soon and report back if someone else hasn't already.

[mario64]

This is a great question. I have a RGB modded 3do which has the manual switch but was wondering if the official 240p would be better. Obviously I’d lose RGB but XRGB can accept s-video. Wonder which would be best quality?

[citrus3000psi]

This is a great question. I have a RGB modded 3do which has the manual switch but was wondering if the official 240p would be better. Obviously I’d lose RGB but XRGB can accept s-video. Wonder which would be best quality?

I've heard the official is a wired in switch as well that was manually done at the factory during assembly. So I think its identical.

[mario64]

This is a great question. I have a RGB modded 3do which has the manual switch but was wondering if the official 240p would be better. Obviously I’d lose RGB but XRGB can accept s-video. Wonder which would be best quality?

I've heard the official is a wired in switch as well that was manually done at the factory during assembly. So I think its identical.

Interesting! Thanks Citrus. So I assume it too has the issue of inadvertently locking into the wrong line placement like the mod does?

[citrus3000psi]

This is a great question. I have a RGB modded 3do which has the manual switch but was wondering if the official 240p would be better. Obviously I’d lose RGB but XRGB can accept s-video. Wonder which would be best quality?

I've heard the official is a wired in switch as well that was manually done at the factory during assembly. So I think its identical.

Interesting! Thanks Citrus. So I assume it too has the issue of inadvertently locking into the wrong line placement like the mod does?

That would be my assumption. But perhaps those early model DAC's didn't have the locking issue.

[FriendofSonic]

The video from My Life in Gaming touches on this issue and they seem to indicate that the official 240p switch doesn't have an issue with that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8sm7v9tdw

[Leonprotos]

That would be my assumption. But perhaps those early model DAC's didn't have the locking issue.

I have one of the units in question and it does not work like the toggle mod. You don't have to hit the switch after powering up, everything displays as 240p, but games do have framerate differences. Wolfenstein 3D for example is almost too fast to be playable.
You also can't get stuck on the wrong line placement.

So I would say the official switch is more convenient, but the modded switch is more compatible. I wonder if anyone has looked into studying the FZ-1 official switch and integrating it into a mod so as to have the option for both.

I have both the FZ-1 with a mode switch and an FZ-10 with a VP536. Never got around to doing an RGB mod though I'm interested to see how citrus3000psi's turns out as I would like to have both RGB and 240p on one system.

[nmalinoski]

So is there a difference in quality between the 240p generated by the console and the 240p from the RGB mod?

[strygo]

I certainly observed a difference between the two methods. The mod looked better on my end - it was clearer and crisper.

Thanks,
Steve

[citrus3000psi]

I certainly observed a difference between the two methods. The mod looked better on my end - it was clearer and crisper.

Thanks,
Steve

My guess is the difference is not from the mod but from the DAC. I don't think anybody has done a side by side comparison with these DACS. So there might be some differences.

[FriendofSonic]

My hype for the 240p JP model heightens

Is the 3DO RGB board close at all Citrus? You've hand your hands full on GC/Wii for sure

[citrus3000psi]

My hype for the 240p JP model heightens

Is the 3DO RGB board close at all Citrus? You've hand your hands full on GC/Wii for sure

I have a dev board hooked up to my FZ-10 right now. Just have to have the time to sit down and work on it. I probably will not realistically get to it until the first of the year.

I've been feeling drained lately. I don't want to burn myself out, so I'm going to not bite off more than I can chew. Right now, WiiDuals and DCHDMI are priorities.

[FriendofSonic]

Certainly understandable! It's important to not be burnt out, and you're making a lot of people happy on the GC and Wii front

[Leonprotos]

I was curious so I opened up my A-B Mode 240p FZ-1, and it seems citrus is right, it seems to be a wired in switch. I can't tell if the switch itself has its own things going on so that it automatically takes care of line placement.

At least now I know for sure both of my 3DOs can be RGB modded.

Spoiler

[mario64]

Is the official switch pulling from different points on the board vs the mod? Maybe that’s the difference

[BuckoA51]

Is the 3DO RGB board close at all Citrus? You've hand your hands full on GC/Wii for sure

I'll just quickly say we have 3DO RGB mods in stock (DIY and fitting) and we also do the 240p mod.

The current 3DO RGB mod does need a re-design though as it's using an obsolete chip that's not available any more and stock is certainly finite.

[FriendofSonic]

Is the 3DO RGB board close at all Citrus? You've hand your hands full on GC/Wii for sure

I'll just quickly say we have 3DO RGB mods in stock (DIY and fitting) and we also do the 240p mod.

The current 3DO RGB mod does need a re-design though as it's using an obsolete chip that's not available any more and stock is certainly finite.

Do you know if Taijigamer was able to address the horizontal shift issue?

[citrus3000psi]

Is the 3DO RGB board close at all Citrus? You've hand your hands full on GC/Wii for sure

I'll just quickly say we have 3DO RGB mods in stock (DIY and fitting) and we also do the 240p mod.

The current 3DO RGB mod does need a re-design though as it's using an obsolete chip that's not available any more and stock is certainly finite.

Do you know if Taijigamer was able to address the horizontal shift issue?

I looked at the board and it appears to not. So you will need your tv/processor to to fix the shift.

I do have a board that mounts on top of the fz10 vp DAC. It has the shift circuit built on but causes other issues, horizontal scrolling effects that can be seen in some games. You can bypass the shift circuit though. It also uses an analog DAC that is still an active part.

[FriendofSonic]

One thing I'm curious about-- the official 240p switch can provide a small performance boost for FPS in certain games. Does the unofficial method also provide this? If not, really wonder what's going on with the official method that's different

[FriendofSonic]

One thing I'm curious about-- the official 240p switch can provide a small performance boost for FPS in certain games. Does the unofficial method also provide this? If not, really wonder what's going on with the official method that's different

I looked at the board and it appears to not. So you will need your tv/processor to to fix the shift.

I do have a board that mounts on top of the fz10 vp DAC. It has the shift circuit built on but causes other issues, horizontal scrolling effects that can be seen in some games. You can bypass the shift circuit though. It also uses an analog DAC that is still an active part.

Hmm, I'll have to look into how serious the horizontal shift is. I might just stick with S-video.

[citrus3000psi]

One thing I'm curious about-- the official 240p switch can provide a small performance boost for FPS in certain games. Does the unofficial method also provide this? If not, really wonder what's going on with the official method that's different

I looked at the board and it appears to not. So you will need your tv/processor to to fix the shift.

I do have a board that mounts on top of the fz10 vp DAC. It has the shift circuit built on but causes other issues, horizontal scrolling effects that can be seen in some games. You can bypass the shift circuit though. It also uses an analog DAC that is still an active part.

Hmm, I'll have to look into how serious the horizontal shift is. I might just stick with S-video.

I’m working on a new design that uses a cpld to fix the shift issue.

[SuperDeadite]

Found one of these factory switched FZ-1s at my local hardoff the other day. Nice unit to have, though mine appears to have issues. Games will run for 15 minutes or so, then gradually slow down and freezes. Guessing it's time for a recap.

[Whitesnake]

I was curious so I opened up my A-B Mode 240p FZ-1, and it seems citrus is right, it seems to be a wired in switch. I can't tell if the switch itself has its own things going on so that it automatically takes care of line placement.

At least now I know for sure both of my 3DOs can be RGB modded.

Spoiler

Just thought I'd add that not all Japanese Panasonic FZ-1 3DO's are equal when it comes to the MODE SELECT switch.

As you can see from my model on the outside it looks like a 480i/240p model but on the inside it is a different story.



https://ibb.co/neuo6p
https://ibb.co/b0ABRp

I have tried Composite and S-Video on my capture card and it just stays in 480i A or B

It just seems like a redundant RF channel switch on my model at least.

@Leonprotos could you provide more detailed shots of the wired switch in your 3DO like removing that metal plating cover above the switch. I might be able to replicate it on my model.

EDIT: I did some more experimenting and it seems the switch does do something but it doesn't appear to operate as intended.




My capture card reports both modes as 480i which I know is incorrect. Mode B should be 240p. Also Another World doesn't speed up either which is expected in true 240p.

I tried the 3DO on one of my TV's and the Mode B 240p doesn't look as good as Mode A 480i

Mode B just looks very blurry. So I guess it is possible they altered this option in some way or my 3DO has a fault which is not
making the switch work correctly.

[Syntax]

I just rgb modded a 3DO with the exact same board and same A/B switch. Made it hard to find a place to fit the din.

I only had Gex given to me for a test cd but I can assure you that the mode A/B did switch between interlaced and progressive.

Something off topic to note with the RGB mod board I used, It had an incorrect 4.7k resistor on Hsync input. Should of been 1K.
Gave me all types of issues. Its the one that has the red arrow on it.

Spoiler

[Whitesnake]

I guess I could change all the caps and see if that fixes the problem. Although in my experience
I often find the original caps are still good when measured on an ESR Meter.
They are Panasonic caps after all.

[mario64]

Are the two consoles you're comparing using the same video chip internally? If they aren't, that may account for the difference in image quality.

To clarify your Wolfenstein 3D comment - you're saying that the Mode switch causes its speed to run double and you're wondering whether the mod toggle produces the same result? If so, I will certainly give it a try soon and report back if someone else hasn't already.

Has anyone with an official AB switch 3do been able to test Wolfenstein 3D? On my modded unit this and a few other games are unplayable due to running too fast at 240p

[SuperDeadite]

Don't have Wolf 3D, but on Escape From Monster Manor, it runs a lot faster in official 240p mode for me. Makes the game a lot more fun imo, though some of the animations look silly.