Gamecube: PVM 20L5 vs VGA PC CRT

[andykara2003]

I wonder if anyone would know how a CRT PC monitor would compare with a PVM 20L5 (or indeed my 600 line NEC XV29+) with regards to the Gamecube? I was rewatching an old video by our long absent friend Shaun (Fagin), in which he extols the virtues of connecting the GC to a PC monitor via VGA + transcoder and I'm tempted to try it myself. I have a 15Khz BVM I bought when these things were relatively cheap, but I'm not willing to spend the now inevitably huge price of a decent L5 or 480p compatible BVM. I already have a nice component to VGA transcoder and a GC component cable.

Shaun's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSPnNurrd_Y&t=849s

I thought maybe a decent larger sized (say 21") monitor. Would I be right in saying that if I want to avoid prominent 480p scanlines, I would need to stay clear of very high resolution screens - i.e. stick to say 1280 x 1024? Or will I need to go even lower? Finally, are there any other things I should consider before buying?

[orange808]

Use the OSSC and line double to 960p.

[andykara2003]

That'd be a good way of doing it but it would mean more prominent pixelation. I'm one of those that want to ideally keep increased pixelation and scanlines to a minimum - I use consumer CRTs over my BVM for 15khz for that reason.

So as per the 15khz stuff, my approach for 480p might be to find a balance between the highest possible sharpness while minimising additional pixelation and too-prominent scanlines. To do this, I'm thinking that I'd have to avoid line doubling and also choose a monitor with the right resolution (low enough) to achieve this balance.

I imagine that I'd want to choose a monitor either at 1024x768 or 1280x1024, perhaps more likely the former but I don't know. I wouldn't want the dot pitch to be so small as to give strong scanlines at 480p. Maybe it's just a case of experimentation in this case but I'd appreciate any wisdom on this if anyone's used 480p on PC monitors.

Also I'm wondering about other qualities of the L5's image that would elevate it above the PC monitor scenario. I imaging the image would be brighter and punchier - but are there are any other aspects to the image that are worth considering?

[Xer Xian]

As far as 480p gaming goes, there really isn't that much of a difference between a high-TVL broadcast monitor and a decent vga monitor. The reason why the 20L5 and similar are much more coveted than vga monitors is essentially 240p support, and component/RGBS support.

VGA monitors in general are cheap and still reasonably easy to find, if you can settle for an ordinary 17-inch model. 21-inch monitors are a bit more difficult to come by. Btw, you won't be able to find anything larger than 17" with a 1280x1024 recommended resolution. Most or all 19" monitors and above have at least 1600x1200 as recommended since they were at the higher-end of the market (and also due to size they are automatically able to resolve more even with the same mask pitch, wich is really the spec that matters the most).

Of course tastes are personal, but I grew fond of scanlines for earlier crude 3D games, they help a bit in alleviating the jaggedness.

[kel]

When I tested the Gamecube at 480p x2 on a LaCie Electron blue22 IV the other week it had no scanlines and was only slightly sharper than 480p. With 480p there are scanlines but I'd say that they are not noticeable from about 3-4 feet away.

Strangely it's the opposite regarding sharpness with my NEC XP37, 480p looks a lot sharper than 480p x2.

[BazookaBen]

I've been using PC CRT's for years now to play 480p (and higher).

As you've noted, the only downside is the scanlines, and they're not that significant of a downside. The main issue is that they darken the picture. So I get around that mostly by boosting the signal with an Extron RGB. But I have 19 and 21 inch monitors, not sure how things would look on 17 and 15, boosting might not be necessary

But the best solution is to line double. I'm not sure why you think it makes it more pixelated, because increasing everything 2x leaves the same pixel shape as 480p (minus scanlines). But I don't have an external linedoubler (can OSSC do this yet?), so I've only done this with GS mode selector on PS2. It looks fantastic

[orange808]

240p Linex4 with hybrid scanlines looks quite good on a PC CRT. Almost (sort of) good enough to make me question why I own so many other displays.

[BazookaBen]

240p Linex4 with hybrid scanlines looks quite good on a PC CRT. Almost (sort of) good enough to make me question why I own so many other displays.

Is there a linex2 for 480p material?

[nmalinoski]

240p Linex4 with hybrid scanlines looks quite good on a PC CRT. Almost (sort of) good enough to make me question why I own so many other displays.

Is there a linex2 for 480p material?

On the OSSC, yes; 480p can be line-doubled to 960p. (And 480i can be line-doubled to 960i and line-quadrupled to 960p.)

[citrus3000psi]

Here is some 960p captures of the gamecube I did a long time ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_fY1P0fkk

[Xer Xian]

But the best solution is to line double. I'm not sure why you think it makes it more pixelated, because increasing everything 2x leaves the same pixel shape as 480p (minus scanlines).

In theory, upscaling on CRTs (by line doubling or other means) is not neutral when the source vertical resolution is so low that it leaves gaps in the picture (blank scanlines), since they sort of help hiding the pixellation:



But in practice, to what point this makes a relevant difference is debatable (depends on original resolution and screen size+distance), and in any case one could certainly prefer a denser and brighter picture over the darker scanlined one.

[BazookaBen]

Oh I see, very interesting. I guess there is little of that effect going on at 480p.

It's been a while since I tried a few PS2 games in 480p s 960p, but I remember prefering 960p. Partially due to the increased brightness, and it seemd that overall the detail and complexity in the environments was coming through better.

May be time to hook up the PS2 again and have another go at Gradius V.

[FinalBaton]

@kel yep 480p on the 37" NEC looks bonkers. I think that res is the monitor's forte. super solid picture. Resident Evil : Code Veronica via Dreamcast looked exceptional. among other ones.

[andykara2003]

@kel yep 480p on the 37" NEC looks bonkers. I think that res is the monitor's forte. super solid picture.

To be honest my 29" NEC does look great too - I'm curious about the PC monitors as well though for a different image style and for futureproofing..

Here is some 960p captures of the gamecube I did a long time ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_fY1P0fkk

Thanks very much for posting this - I put this up on my flat panel & it perfectly demonstrates why I don't like linedoubling 480p. Overpixellation is something Nintendo and others fought against and I prefer to go with their intended vision of a smooth, clean image while keeping things as sharp as possible. I can totally see and appreciate why people like linedoubling of course and I realise it's just a personal thing. I feel in general that, especially in 240p, the preference for strongly pixellated (more so than the developer intended) images is a more recent thing.

I've been using PC CRT's for years now to play 480p (and higher). As you've noted, the only downside is the scanlines, and they're not that significant of a downside. The main issue is that they darken the picture. So I get around that mostly by boosting the signal with an Extron RGB.

Great solution, thanks - I already have an Extron in the signal path for my 480p stuff to the NEC so I think that would be great for mitigating this.

But in practice, to what point this makes a relevant difference is debatable (depends on original resolution and screen size+distance), and in any case one could certainly prefer a denser and brighter picture over the darker scanlined one.

Thanks for the image - although in the right image, if I'm not mistaken, you should see a more vertically scanlined image rather than a perfect even grid of phosphors. Also in practice, line doubling 480p games would look quite a bit more pixellated than in the left image as you're linedoubling an already pixelated image rather than a smooth photo. As Bazookaben mentioned, an Extron should be able to mitigate the darkness problem in the right hand image.

[BazookaBen]

Here is some 960p captures of the gamecube I did a long time ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_fY1P0fkk

Thanks very much for posting this - I put this up on my flat panel & it perfectly demonstrates why I don't like linedoubling 480p.

For the record, that's 960p upscaled to 1080p for youtube, not the most representative of what you would see on a CRT.

[citrus3000psi]

Here is some 960p captures of the gamecube I did a long time ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_fY1P0fkk

Thanks very much for posting this - I put this up on my flat panel & it perfectly demonstrates why I don't like linedoubling 480p.

For the record, that's 960p upscaled to 1080p for youtube, not the most representative of what you would see on a CRT.

Yes, its upscaled to 1080p through a DUO so my capture card would recognize the signal.

[andykara2003]

For the record, that's 960p upscaled to 1080p for youtube, not the most representative of what you would see on a CRT.

Yes, its upscaled to 1080p through a DUO so my capture card would recognize the signal.

Good to know, I guess there's no substitute for personally seeing it on a PC CRT.

[kel]

@kel yep 480p on the 37" NEC looks bonkers. I think that res is the monitor's forte. super solid picture. Resident Evil : Code Veronica via Dreamcast looked exceptional. among other ones.

Indeed definitely my favourite of the monitors that I have, just a shame that mine doesn't also do 15khz although I would imagine that the scanlines would be too big for my taste if it did anyway to be fair. Would be nice to get the schematics for the plus version one day though to see if it could be upgraded somehow all the same.

[andykara2003]

I would imagine that the scanlines would be too big for my taste

The 240p scanlines on the 29" are way too bold for me so the 37's would be very prominent indeed. On the plus side, the relatively sharp focus and lack of consumer TV level bleed of those cleanly delineated 240p scanlines are what make the monitors so good for 480p.

[BazookaBen]

The Sony Hi-scan and SFP TV sets are really good for 480p too. They've been measured to have 2 frames of lag though.

[kel]

I would imagine that the scanlines would be too big for my taste

The 240p scanlines on the 29" are way too bold for me so the 37's would be very prominent indeed. On the plus side, the relatively sharp focus and lack of consumer TV level bleed of those cleanly delineated 240p scanlines are what make the monitors so good for 480p.

Completely agree. For me the only way to play 240p on these monitors is upscaled to 480p. Line doubling, ect. doesn't quite work well enough either, it really needs to be proper upscaling. I have got some very nice results with a DVDO edge upscaling 240p to 480p which gives only very faint scanlines but just enough to give the image depth. Unfortunately the DVDO Edge has ringing on 240p, a slightly soft 480p output and sometimes 25ms lag if the refresh rate isn't quite close enough to spec. There is always the DVDO VP50pro though, which has only 6ms lag regardless of the source but probably still has ringing and soft 480p output or maybe the Framemeister would be a good alternative in spite of it's 24ms of lag.

[Blue_Ray]

I actually went this route a few months ago when I ordered this Component to VGA transcoder for my Gamecube and Wii purposes. Put together a CRT cart as a result and use one of my two Olympus OEV203s on top to handle 240p/480i content. Since I already had a good 21" inch PC monitor that I previously used for Dreamcast and Xbox 360 VGA output purposes and figured it would be great to get proper 480p from my two Nintendo consoles. Here's a few pics I took of the Gamecube in action, although it's by no means what it compares to in real life (and there's some blurriness in a few of them):

https://i.imgur.com/H3PBeNA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TiGqfFj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fVszQXK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DPwux46.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/24tPf9Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1LTD76X.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bpnMUzQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1lU6eQV.jpg

The transcoder was outputting 1280x1024 by default IIRC. Had to bring it down to 640x480, although that was more so the picture would fit instead of looked a bit zoomed out.

[Fudoh]

I ordered this Component to VGA transcoder for my Gamecube

that's actually a scaler and not completely lag free either. Biggest problem with it is that it takes the 720x480p input and outputs it as 640x480p instead.

Of course it works, but in the long run you can do better.

[Blue_Ray]

I ordered this Component to VGA transcoder for my Gamecube

that's actually a scaler and not completely lag free either. Biggest problem with it is that it takes the 720x480p input and outputs it as 640x480p instead.

Of course it works, but in the long run you can do better.

For REAL?! Oh man! What should I get then?

[Fudoh]

Availability of analogue transcoders has gone downhill over the past years. The Startech unit is available at Amazon ($77). If you feel like experimenting you can use a component to HDMI converter ($20) along with a HDMI to VGA converter ($10). It sounds silly, but it usually works quite well.

[Blue_Ray]

I see, so this is the one I'd want? Then again, the component to HDMI and then HDMI to VGA does sound much cheaper (but so do the build quality of those later products it seems). Weird how what I have never advertised it was a scaler? What's the difference? I didn't notice any lag either, but I can try some other games and see...

[BazookaBen]

I can recommend both the audio authority 9a62 and 9a65. They're completely analog

[nmalinoski]

I see, so this is the one I'd want? Then again, the component to HDMI and then HDMI to VGA does sound much cheaper (but so do the build quality of those later products it seems).

Personally, I'd hesitate to purchase that Startech transcoder without knowing if it properly handles 240p. According to the reviews, it doesn't have a scaler, so it shouldn't introduce any deinterlacing artifacts, but it might refuse to convert any resolution it doesn't specifically support. Of course, it's Amazon, so you can probably return it for a full refund if it doesn't work the way you need it to.

Personally, for an HDMI->VGA transcoder, I bought this Portta model on the recommendations of other Shmups users. It's not much more expensive than the one you linked, and it supposedly doesn't crush blacks, whereas many other cheap/simple converters do, which is a big reason why I spent the extra $5-$10 on this over other options. I haven't gotten a chance to use it for games yet (I have a VGA CRT in the garage I still need to pull out), but it so far works great for connecting a RasPi to an otherwise unused VGA port on one of my desktop monitors.

Weird how what I have never advertised it was a scaler? What's the difference? I didn't notice any lag either, but I can try some other games and see...

According to the product page, "output resolution is optional", so theoretically it should have a mode that disables the scaler, or at least causes it to scale to the detected input resolution.

Generally, devices with built-in scalers, like many VGA "converters", as well as presentation scalers/switchers and seamless switchers, are designed to take video signals of varying dimensions and framerates, and then normalize them to one specific output resolution (and sometimes also framerate). These scalers always add at least one frame of lag, almost never (if not never) properly support 240p, and can't be disabled.

A straight transcoder or RGB decoder, on the other hand, takes whatever signal it receives and simply converts it to the RGB or YPbPr color space, or decodes from or encodes to NTSC/PAL/SECAM/etc., leaving the original resolution and framerate intact, and typically without any lag.

This is precisely why the Extron IN1508--a neat device that can take all of composite video, s-video, YPbPr component, RGsB, RGBS, RGBHV (VGA), and DVI; scale up to full HD; output RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, or YPbPr; and can properly survive resolution changes without dropping sync (I think; been a while since I tested mine)--cannot function as a simple transcoder or RGB decoder for retro gamers.

For anything that utilizes 240p (Mainly 5th-gen consoles and earlier, but still significant usage in 6th-gen), you want any video processors to leave it as it is, but it's unfortunately nonstandard. Because of that, a lot of video processing chips simply treat 240p as 480i, and attempt to apply deinterlacing and filtering, which can result in deinterlacing artifacts when there should be none, as well as rapidly-flashing textures either remaining static or not appearing at all.

Apologies for the long post; I get carried away with this stuff sometimes.

[Blue_Ray]

I can recommend both the audio authority 9a62 and 9a65. They're completely analog

Interesting! If I can find them, I'll check them out!

I see, so this is the one I'd want? Then again, the component to HDMI and then HDMI to VGA does sound much cheaper (but so do the build quality of those later products it seems).

Personally, I'd hesitate to purchase that Startech transcoder without knowing if it properly handles 240p. According to the reviews, it doesn't have a scaler, so it shouldn't introduce any deinterlacing artifacts, but it might refuse to convert any resolution it doesn't specifically support. Of course, it's Amazon, so you can probably return it for a full refund if it doesn't work the way you need it to.

Personally, for an HDMI->VGA transcoder, I bought this Portta model on the recommendations of other Shmups users. It's not much more expensive than the one you linked, and it supposedly doesn't crush blacks, whereas many other cheap/simple converters do, which is a big reason why I spent the extra $5-$10 on this over other options. I haven't gotten a chance to use it for games yet (I have a VGA CRT in the garage I still need to pull out), but it so far works great for connecting a RasPi to an otherwise unused VGA port on one of my desktop monitors.

Weird how what I have never advertised it was a scaler? What's the difference? I didn't notice any lag either, but I can try some other games and see...

According to the product page, "output resolution is optional", so theoretically it should have a mode that disables the scaler, or at least causes it to scale to the detected input resolution.

Generally, devices with built-in scalers, like many VGA "converters", as well as presentation scalers/switchers and seamless switchers, are designed to take video signals of varying dimensions and framerates, and then normalize them to one specific output resolution (and sometimes also framerate). These scalers always add at least one frame of lag, almost never (if not never) properly support 240p, and can't be disabled.

A straight transcoder or RGB decoder, on the other hand, takes whatever signal it receives and simply converts it to the RGB or YPbPr color space, or decodes from or encodes to NTSC/PAL/SECAM/etc., leaving the original resolution and framerate intact, and typically without any lag.

This is precisely why the Extron IN1508--a neat device that can take all of composite video, s-video, YPbPr component, RGsB, RGBS, RGBHV (VGA), and DVI; scale up to full HD; output RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, or YPbPr; and can properly survive resolution changes without dropping sync (I think; been a while since I tested mine)--cannot function as a simple transcoder or RGB decoder for retro gamers.

For anything that utilizes 240p (Mainly 5th-gen consoles and earlier, but still significant usage in 6th-gen), you want any video processors to leave it as it is, but it's unfortunately nonstandard. Because of that, a lot of video processing chips simply treat 240p as 480i, and attempt to apply deinterlacing and filtering, which can result in deinterlacing artifacts when there should be none, as well as rapidly-flashing textures either remaining static or not appearing at all.

Apologies for the long post; I get carried away with this stuff sometimes.

No problem. I appreciate any explanations so I can better understand things! I was curious about 240p output and how the transcoder would handle it, so I ran Game Boy Interface (forced to 240p60 via Swiss) and used Shantae (since I still need to finish THIS game at some point, what with all the sequels besides Half-Gene Hero I have yet to sit down with) and was surprised how good the picture was. Shot from my PVM:

https://i.imgur.com/peC91Hc.jpg

And while not as bright (still closer to the PVM shot above color wise IRL), I was surprised by how little to no interlacing was going on (it was saying it was outputting 480i but it wasn't until I unplugged it from the transcoder and back in after checking the PVM, where it started to exhibit it), and just how clean it looked. Here's an idea of how the PC CRT handled it:

https://i.imgur.com/QgA70ff.jpg

[BazookaBen]

was surprised how good the picture was. Shot from my PVM

It doesn't look like it's 1:1 integer scaling. Look at the faded lines at the bottom of Shatae's hair tie, hands, and pants. Those look like bilinear scaling artifacts.