I'm not denying the existence of a motive, I'm saying ANY motive you suggest after the fact is tainted by what has already happened. Any half wit armchair political analyst can do that. What I was trying to suggest with my earlier post about saying motive isn't important, was basically that. The how/why the wars were justified or the policies implemented are basically moot at this point because the fact remains we're in a war and things aren't going well, and regardless of any initial plotting on behalf of Bush, his administration is in the shitter now.magnum opus wrote:
as an addendum it feels like i'm arguing with some one who came in halfway through wag the dog or canadian bacon and (having not seen the first half) started arguing that the presidents had no motive to invent an enemy
What if 911 was a conspiracy?
Feedback will set you free.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
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Zweihander
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I sincerely hope that was sarcastic. ;(VNAF Ace wrote:9/11 a conspiracy?
To those who actually believe that our gov't would be willing to murder thousands of innocent American citizens...
"Spare me your 6th grade Michael Moore logic!"
All I know is, The Fonz approves of 9/11, and if The Fonz approves, I approve, dammit!
Schrodinger's cat wrote:Yeah, "shmup" really sounds like a term a Jewish grandmother would insult you with.
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magnum opus
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not to restart this thread but brilliant slip by Cheney:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 329-2.html
Q I want to be clear because I've heard you say this, and I've heard the President say it, but I want you to say it for my listeners, which is that the White House has never argued that Saddam was directly involved in September 11th, correct?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's correct. We had one report early on from another intelligence service that suggested that the lead hijacker, Mohamed Atta, had met with Iraqi intelligence officials in Prague, Czechoslovakia. And that reporting waxed and waned where the degree of confidence in it, and so forth, has been pretty well knocked down now at this stage, that that meeting ever took place. So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization.
which is just fucking brilliant, but later the interviewer is a nice guys so:
________________
Q Okay. A couple of things, I think a couple of minutes ago -- I want to make sure -- you said Osama bin Laden wasn't involved in 9/11 planning. You meant Saddam Hussein, correct? That Saddam Hussein was not involved in September 11th?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Correct. Yes, sir.
Q Okay.
THE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Thanks for straightening that out. I didn't realize I'd done that. (Laughter.)
Q Yes. Well, otherwise we'd have a whole lot more stories to deal with.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. All right. Well, I appreciate it.
________________________
of course the only problem is that this means:
So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow [Saddam] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 329-2.html
Q I want to be clear because I've heard you say this, and I've heard the President say it, but I want you to say it for my listeners, which is that the White House has never argued that Saddam was directly involved in September 11th, correct?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's correct. We had one report early on from another intelligence service that suggested that the lead hijacker, Mohamed Atta, had met with Iraqi intelligence officials in Prague, Czechoslovakia. And that reporting waxed and waned where the degree of confidence in it, and so forth, has been pretty well knocked down now at this stage, that that meeting ever took place. So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization.
which is just fucking brilliant, but later the interviewer is a nice guys so:
________________
Q Okay. A couple of things, I think a couple of minutes ago -- I want to make sure -- you said Osama bin Laden wasn't involved in 9/11 planning. You meant Saddam Hussein, correct? That Saddam Hussein was not involved in September 11th?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Correct. Yes, sir.
Q Okay.
THE PRESIDENT CHENEY: Thanks for straightening that out. I didn't realize I'd done that. (Laughter.)
Q Yes. Well, otherwise we'd have a whole lot more stories to deal with.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. All right. Well, I appreciate it.
________________________
of course the only problem is that this means:
So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow [Saddam] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization.
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BulletMagnet
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Even if the government never came out and said it outright (if they did, I wouldn't know offhand, I don't keep a particularly close watch on politics and whatnot), they've certainly insinuated it...IIRC, a decent chunk of the population still believes that Saddam was connected to it, and, at least in the vast majority of these cases, they didn't come to that conclusion by themselves. Which leads me to...magnum opus wrote:So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow [Saddam] was directly involved in 9/11.
To the best of my knowledge this is, to put it bluntly, complete and utter bunk. Saddam is secular, bin Laden is religious; their goals are completely different, and always have been. IIRC the closest the two sides ever came to forming an alliance was years and years before 9-11 (heck, it mighta been closer to the time of the Persian Gulf war in the early 90's, I don't know offhand); I think it's been confirmed that the two sides were talking about an alliance, but nothing ever came of it. As I said before, I'm no news junkie, but even I'm aware of this, and have been for some time: anyone who isn't by now needs to listen a little harder.But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization.
Now, of course, there's the new British memos which have surfaced which supposedly depict Bush as coming up with several ways to spur the country into invading Iraq via utter fabrication...seeing as how little sense some of the ideas seem to make, though (painting a plane in UN colors? Wouldn't the UN know the plane wasn't theirs right from the start?), I'm rather skeptical.
*sigh*
No... the government did not blow up the twin towers.
And I doubt anyone even knows this, but last week Saddam Hussein's second in command was on The Daily Show (of all things) and said that Iraq DID have WMDs and that they shipped them out to Syria, and he saw them with his own eyes.
Of course, no one will report that since it makes Bush look better, and God forbid Bush not be a war mongering psychopath out for oil that eats children.
No... the government did not blow up the twin towers.
And I doubt anyone even knows this, but last week Saddam Hussein's second in command was on The Daily Show (of all things) and said that Iraq DID have WMDs and that they shipped them out to Syria, and he saw them with his own eyes.
Of course, no one will report that since it makes Bush look better, and God forbid Bush not be a war mongering psychopath out for oil that eats children.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!
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BulletMagnet
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IIRC the informant known as "Curveball" said much the same thing, and his story's been pretty much completely dismantled as more facts have come out. Apparently those interrogating him in Germany even advised the U.S. that they were suspicious of his motives...what's the story on this fellow?jp wrote:And I doubt anyone even knows this, but last week Saddam Hussein's second in command was on The Daily Show (of all things) and said that Iraq DID have WMDs and that they shipped them out to Syria, and he saw them with his own eyes.
And even if what he's saying is true, the government can't possibly have picked up on this information later than the Daily Show has...as such, why has Syria hardly even been mentioned, let alone confronted, by those in charge of the "War on Terror?"
"His side" of the media has gotten away with a lot of garbage, just as much as "the opposition," at least...heck, how much do you hear the memo mentioned in my last post discussed? Or, for that matter, the details of the "Curveball" debacle? Or the Veep's closed-door meetings with oil execs to determine the country's energy policy? And heaven knows what else, that more apt newshounds than myself are doubtlessly aware of?Of course, no one will report that since it makes Bush look better...
Granted, I'm no Bush-basher (I just distrust politicians in general, hardly just him and his ilk), but anyone who still believes the old "Liberal News Media Conspiracy" garbage needs to pay closer attention to what's actually being said out there.
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BeauZilla 002
- Posts: 40
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Why are you sighing?jp wrote:*sigh*
The ONLY 2 skyscrapers in history to be brought down by fire....happen on the same day?!Then another one falls later for no reason??
Watch Loose Change,then get back to me.Friggin American sheep,lulled to sleep.
Now playing:
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
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BeauZilla 002
- Posts: 40
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I could tell.Thanx for that.sethsez wrote:Reality isn't as entertaining as living in a fantasy world filled with all sorts of fantastic events.BeauZilla 002 wrote:Friggin American sheep,lulled to sleep.
I'm making fun of you in case you couldn't tell, tinfoil boy.
I just get bummed when so many people do great research,and people pawn it off as uh,tinfoil boys who are paranoid.
Your response is very typical of people in denial.You never refute the evidence.
Now playing:
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
We have footage of planes crashing into the towers and accounts of people who were there both outside and inside the towers. The tinfoil contingent has flimsy evidence based on basic misunderstandings of architechtural concepts and fantastic leaps of logic, both of which are spiced up with lots of impressive-sounding words that mean fuck-all in the context they're inevitably used by these people.
Guess which one holds more water.
Just because you want there to be a giant conspiracy because, hey, that'd be so cool and interesting doesn't mean there actually was one. Much like the "we never landed on the moon" bullshit (and, hell, intelligent design), it's a lot of nonsense spruced up to sound presentable for those who don't know better.
Guess which one holds more water.
Just because you want there to be a giant conspiracy because, hey, that'd be so cool and interesting doesn't mean there actually was one. Much like the "we never landed on the moon" bullshit (and, hell, intelligent design), it's a lot of nonsense spruced up to sound presentable for those who don't know better.
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BeauZilla 002
- Posts: 40
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- Location: Chicago
Like the firefighters who heard explosions everywhere?
Like the fact that those towers fell in there own footprints?
Why do you side with the government?
Seriously bro,please watch Loose Change and just take it all in.I do not wish for conspiracies to make my life more interesting.Thats what my wife,my kid,my friends,and my videogames are 4.
Like the fact that those towers fell in there own footprints?
Why do you side with the government?
Seriously bro,please watch Loose Change and just take it all in.I do not wish for conspiracies to make my life more interesting.Thats what my wife,my kid,my friends,and my videogames are 4.
Now playing:
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
PS:Dodonpachi
the Adventure of Little Ralph
GC:Ikaruga
It was all the work of the Patriots so they could create a world full of war and conflict, in which mercenaries such as Big Boss would always have a place. What the Bush admin hasn't revealed, is that the weapons of mass destructions in Iraq, were Nuclear-equipped walking battle tanks, capable of launching a nuclear attack anywhere on the face of the earth. Which explains why the weapons of mass destruction haven't been found yet: Nuclear-equipped WALKING battle tanks, people! WALKING!
Get a clue, people. Dammit. And while you're at it, get some cigs and stinger missiles, just in case.
(Sorry, couldn't help it.)
Get a clue, people. Dammit. And while you're at it, get some cigs and stinger missiles, just in case.
(Sorry, couldn't help it.)
Don't hold grudges. GET EVEN.
I don't side with the government, I side with reality. A classic crackpot symptom is to believe ANYTHING that says the government is a big bad evil thing no matter how flimsy the evidence is (and yes, Loose Change is 100% crackpot), because hey, it goes against the government.BeauZilla 002 wrote:Why do you side with the government?
We've got the NSA scandal, a bullshit war and a million and one corrupt alliances with corporations in our government right now. I don't need to jump on a fucking retarded crackpot tinfoil bandwagon just to prove that I really super duper doubleplus don't like the government.
Did you know that Rumsfeld eats kittens? If you disagree, you're siding with the government.
PROTIP: believing in stupid bullshit just because it goes against something you don't like doesn't mean you're a free thinker, it just means you're easily manipulated and mislead by different sources. Manipulated by government propaganda or manipulated by barely-sane crackpots, you're a tool either way. So spare me the "open your mind" bullshit when what you're really asking is "allow yourself to be manipulated by a different group."
You must learn that in the world of those involved in politics is that there is only extremes and nothing in between. Anyone not completely in their political subset is an enemy.sethsez wrote:We've got the NSA scandal, a bullshit war and a million and one corrupt alliances with corporations in our government right now. I don't need to jump on a fucking retarded crackpot tinfoil bandwagon just to prove that I really super duper doubleplus don't like the government.BeauZilla 002 wrote:Why do you side with the government?
on an offnote I blame pretzels those are grade A terrorist snacks what with the attempt to assassinate our president
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
a kid in my speech class did a speech on how 9/11 was a conspiracy and pretty much based all of his information off of "Loose Change". He had absolutely no sources for anything he said he just kept rambling off and the entire class was in shock. I was really interested and thought I'd check out the video to see what the fuss was about. I was about 10 seconds into it before I turned it off. I'm sorry but I don't want to watch a video where the camera is zoomed up right on the losers face.
The world is full of cracked out losers who should be shipped off to Siberia. I mean come on... we have those people that praise soldier's dying, the 9/11 goverment losers, and the French general who was talking about a comet that never came.
If you don't like it.... well.. you can GET OUT! *in a hick voice!*
The world is full of cracked out losers who should be shipped off to Siberia. I mean come on... we have those people that praise soldier's dying, the 9/11 goverment losers, and the French general who was talking about a comet that never came.
If you don't like it.... well.. you can GET OUT! *in a hick voice!*
But if you do that, you're letting the government win over you.Rob wrote:See, this is a good point. Let's focus energy on things other than grassy knolls for the time being.sethsez wrote:We've got the NSA scandal, a bullshit war and a million and one corrupt alliances with corporations in our government right now.
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
unban shw
<Megalixir> now that i know garegga is faggot central i can disregard it entirely
<Megalixir> i'm stuck in a hobby with gays
I must say that is one of the best things I've read in a while.sethsez wrote:believing in stupid bullshit just because it goes against something you don't like doesn't mean you're a free thinker, it just means you're easily manipulated and mislead by different sources. Manipulated by government propaganda or manipulated by barely-sane crackpots, you're a tool either way. So spare me the "open your mind" bullshit when what you're really asking is "allow yourself to be manipulated by a different group."
We don't need Conspiracy Theory... the truth is sick and twisted enough.
US national defense policy: If an aircraft is going to kamikazi into a skyscraper building, we shoot it down before impact. Well then, why didn't the planes get shot down then? It is because they were all busy participating in drills that Cheney organized which was taking place at the same time of the "attacks". Well, what where these drills about you ask?
http://team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum ... pic.php?16
Scary shit, the USA is run by a bunch of x-nazis. It takes the intellect of an 9th grader to figure it out. It doesn't take Alex Jones videos to tell you that something is very very wrong with the current administration. When the first election was rigged I knew something was going to happen and told many friends that we were in for a real surprise, I had no idea that it would be something so similar to the burning of the Reichstag. Martyr is not new in history people, and governments find ways of controlling the masses.
US national defense policy: If an aircraft is going to kamikazi into a skyscraper building, we shoot it down before impact. Well then, why didn't the planes get shot down then? It is because they were all busy participating in drills that Cheney organized which was taking place at the same time of the "attacks". Well, what where these drills about you ask?
http://team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum ... pic.php?16
Scary shit, the USA is run by a bunch of x-nazis. It takes the intellect of an 9th grader to figure it out. It doesn't take Alex Jones videos to tell you that something is very very wrong with the current administration. When the first election was rigged I knew something was going to happen and told many friends that we were in for a real surprise, I had no idea that it would be something so similar to the burning of the Reichstag. Martyr is not new in history people, and governments find ways of controlling the masses.
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howmuchkeefe
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If you pay taxes at all, don't you live in a socialist state?
After that, it becomes a question of how much socialism is too much. Fuzzy stuff. Along the same lines as, "How much freedom is too much?": The right to free speech? The right to bear arms? The right to an abortion? The right to do cocaine?
After that, it becomes a question of how much socialism is too much. Fuzzy stuff. Along the same lines as, "How much freedom is too much?": The right to free speech? The right to bear arms? The right to an abortion? The right to do cocaine?
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Never_Scurred
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- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 1:09 am
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Who Cares?
Really, we can debate this and that forever but the fact of the matter is that it happened and only God and those involved know the truth.
You got your music, your shmups, your job and opinion. Just leave it at that.
And besides, most of the people that harp on how Bush is bad bad bad are the main ones who benefit from this the most. I mean, would Michael Moore and all these other liberal whitebreads have made as much cash and got as much airtime as they do now if it wasn't for the Bush administration and 9/11?
Its made both sides rich and famous. The Right gets to write books about why we need a war and get talk shows and blah blah blah and the Left gets to write books and make movies about how the Right are sinister moneyhungry pigs who are screwing over the poor and middle class. And these pussypunk bands like Green Day gets to boil it all down for the suburbite teens who can't think for themselves. Everybody got rich.
At the end of the day I don't give a fuck who did it, as long as I can get up in the morning and go to college and go to work and come home and play PS2 in peace.
Really, we can debate this and that forever but the fact of the matter is that it happened and only God and those involved know the truth.
You got your music, your shmups, your job and opinion. Just leave it at that.
And besides, most of the people that harp on how Bush is bad bad bad are the main ones who benefit from this the most. I mean, would Michael Moore and all these other liberal whitebreads have made as much cash and got as much airtime as they do now if it wasn't for the Bush administration and 9/11?
Its made both sides rich and famous. The Right gets to write books about why we need a war and get talk shows and blah blah blah and the Left gets to write books and make movies about how the Right are sinister moneyhungry pigs who are screwing over the poor and middle class. And these pussypunk bands like Green Day gets to boil it all down for the suburbite teens who can't think for themselves. Everybody got rich.
At the end of the day I don't give a fuck who did it, as long as I can get up in the morning and go to college and go to work and come home and play PS2 in peace.
chempop wrote:
It takes the intellect of an 9th grader to figure it out.
"That seems to be the standard many crackpots hold themselves to, yes."
Funny how everyone who sides with you just has these no brain types of responses, while the people who have a flying fuck as to what is going on in the world actually provide links and resourses that shed a hint of truth.
You sure "crackpots" is the right word. May I ask what you do for work? Crack dealer? No? I am a teacher at a charter school which draws students from a very diverse set of back grounds and I find it very amazing that the youth of today are actually aware of reality, compared to most people who grew up several decades ago (or people in the south and midwest, which demonstrates ignorance of government... hence voting for Bush in the first place).
And for people unwilling to believe that the US is capable of killing thousands of innocent civilians, just look at it this way, at least they were also righteous enough to inform select people about what was going to happen on 9/11 resulting in important Bush affiliates taking the day off from work and getting their flights re-scheduled to avoid the "attack".
Look at WWII and the nuking of Japan. At the time US citizens tought it was a response to Pearl Harbor. We all know now it was just to flex and show off to Germany, who the US was actually providing with goods during the war... or did you still think we did it to save the Jews?
It takes the intellect of an 9th grader to figure it out.
"That seems to be the standard many crackpots hold themselves to, yes."
Funny how everyone who sides with you just has these no brain types of responses, while the people who have a flying fuck as to what is going on in the world actually provide links and resourses that shed a hint of truth.
You sure "crackpots" is the right word. May I ask what you do for work? Crack dealer? No? I am a teacher at a charter school which draws students from a very diverse set of back grounds and I find it very amazing that the youth of today are actually aware of reality, compared to most people who grew up several decades ago (or people in the south and midwest, which demonstrates ignorance of government... hence voting for Bush in the first place).
And for people unwilling to believe that the US is capable of killing thousands of innocent civilians, just look at it this way, at least they were also righteous enough to inform select people about what was going to happen on 9/11 resulting in important Bush affiliates taking the day off from work and getting their flights re-scheduled to avoid the "attack".
Look at WWII and the nuking of Japan. At the time US citizens tought it was a response to Pearl Harbor. We all know now it was just to flex and show off to Germany, who the US was actually providing with goods during the war... or did you still think we did it to save the Jews?
Links and resources? Yes, I'm very impressed by leaps of logic and videos like Loose Change.
And congratulations on being a teacher. I once had a history teacher who was convinced the holocaust never happened and had mountains of evidence to back up how it was all just a money-making industry concocted by the jews. He still has his job. God bless tenure, huh?
And congratulations on being a teacher. I once had a history teacher who was convinced the holocaust never happened and had mountains of evidence to back up how it was all just a money-making industry concocted by the jews. He still has his job. God bless tenure, huh?
It is true, he let many people in New Orleans drown because they were black. He also supports a legal system that keeps more black people in jail then in college. It might not be as obvious as death camps to an uneducated person, but some at least have figured out that Corporations and Corruption run the government. These people aren't actually real politicians, if they were they would give a fuck about the country and the people in it. But no, all they care about are profits and keeping the white bloodline in power. Yup, totally like Hilter.George Bush is totally like Hitler, you guys