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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:45 am 


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Randorama wrote:
Also, I am trying to understand why I liked Gaiapolis so much, back in the day. It feels extremely slow, even if the game system is ok.


If you find a way to enjoy it (like what Roo did for Moo Mesa), please be sure to share :P
I kind of feel like I bought a pig in a poke there.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:05 am 


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__SKYe wrote:
So, it's been a while since I cleared Contra FC, and I've wanted to put it up on Youtube for a while as well, so I finally went for the no miss. Only when I did it (a few days ago), using the Spreadshot, I found it to not actually be that hard anyway, since S annihilates anything very fast, so I figured that going with the Peashooter only was the way to go, and, since I was already not using any weapons, I might as well not pick up any items either (which is kinda in tune with my NG video as well). This, of course, means no Rapidshot, Invincibility, nor screen clearing bombs. And no external autofire as well.


Love st4 boss w/peashooter - plays almost like Galaga, haha! (or perhaps Donkey Kong 3?) The pounding dramatic BGM gets some very appropriate room to shine too!

Lately I've been experimenting with no-barrier runs as well, particularly in stage 6. Undeniably satisfying to steamroll its horde of runners and cannons while barreling straight through the flamejets... but as you say, that's a really nice bit of stage design you miss out on!

Upper-loop st8 Java is another cool bit that's basically optional if you know how to time the pickup. I didn't have the guts to no-B either of these in my loop 7 nomiss, though... I felt cheesy enough not attempting a full seven-loop nomiss (sounds draining :shock:), instead dicking about until I'd gotten all six chopper flags, so I was hell-bent on either doing it in one or junking it. Spot the bit during the last boss where I squeal in terror at his hyper-armoured facehuggers. :mrgreen:

OTOH I really like slicing through st7's CRUSHERMANIA hallway with a perfectly-timed pickup, because tbh creeping past traps isn't why I play Contra. :cool: (admittedly I can't recall if runners can spawn during that bit... now that would liven things up!)

Coincidentally I've been revisiting River City Ransom's FC incarnation Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari, and having a blast overall. It's undeniably more of a style favourite, but it isn't without some real strengths, and that style can sometimes genuinely enhance (like each gang having specific behavioural quirks... treacherous pinkies' tendency to run away if stared down cracks me up, while greys are my buddies cos they attack viciously but die quick and give good cash).

Anyway, I find it's a lot more interesting to let bosses finish their intro speeches in true shounen manga fashion, instead of mugging them on sight. :lol: Doesn't change the reality that once they're floored, they're more or less finished, but definitely restores a little uncertainty!

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It was nice to bring some closure to this old favourite, even more so, since it was the game that led me to this thread in the first place. 8)


I'm so glad I mentioned this thread to you offhand back then. Image
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:16 am 


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BIL wrote:
Lately I've been experimenting with no-barrier runs as well, particularly in stage 6. Undeniably satisfying to steamroll its horde of runners and cannons while barreling straight through the flamejets... but as you say, that's a really nice bit of stage design you miss out on!


Yeah, the second half of stage 6 is mostly bypassed if you pick it up.
I avoided it in this run only, for the most part. For more recreational play I find that simply moving through the levels is more fun, especially if you're going for multiple loops (that second half is mostly fire hazards and machinegunners, so it naturally takes some time to go through, if you don't pick the invincibility item).

BIL wrote:
Upper-loop st8 Java is another cool bit that's basically optional if you know how to time the pickup. I didn't have the guts to no-B either of these in my loop 7 nomiss, though... I felt cheesy enough not attempting a full seven-loop nomiss (sounds draining :shock:), instead dicking about until I'd gotten all six chopper flags, so I was hell-bent on either doing it in one or junking it. Spot the bit during the last boss where I squeal in terror at his hyper-armoured facehuggers. :mrgreen:


Haha yeah, Java without the B item becomes a massive chore later on, and pretty much impossible if you're not carrying the spreadshot (I lost many lives on my 5-ALL's incomplete 6th loop there, precisely because I didn't pick up the B-item and didn't have the spreadshot -- the shrimps are basically indestructible with the peashooter alone).
By cutting off the extends and bloating enemy HP, on those later loops, the game just wants you to lose. :lol:

BIL wrote:
OTOH I really like slicing through st7's CRUSHERMANIA hallway with a perfectly-timed pickup, because tbh creeping past traps isn't why I play Contra. :cool: (admittedly I can't recall if runners can spawn during that bit... now that would liven things up!)


There's a fair bit of waiting otherwise, even if you take the safer upper route (like I did). Though to take the upper route you must plan ahead and leave the last cart alive, otherwise you won't reach it, so it's cool to do so anyway.
And yes, zakos spawn on the very last stabbing arm (the one that repeats 9 times), which makes that section even more dangerous.

BIL wrote:
Coincidentally I've been revisiting River City Ransom's FC incarnation Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari, and having a blast overall. It's undeniably more of a style favourite, but it isn't without some real strengths, and that style can sometimes genuinely enhance (like each gang having specific behavioural quirks... treacherous pinkies' tendency to run away if stared down cracks me up, while greys are my buddies cos they attack viciously but die quick and give good cash).


Yeah, it is a good game, it is just one of those that really shines when playing with a friend.

BIL wrote:
I'm so glad I mentioned this thread to you offhand back then. Image



And so am I!. It was the start of my hardcore side-scrolling action career. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:10 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
If you find a way to enjoy it (like what Roo did for Moo Mesa), please be sure to share :P
I kind of feel like I bought a pig in a poke there.


Does that mean you've discovered the joy of Moo Mesa's dodging? :D

Gaiapolis's low movement speed means you can't really attack and easily evade a boss's counterattack. Also based on 1CC runs I've seen it's one of those games like many of Konami's beat em ups such as X-Men or TMNT where optimal strategies involve really bizarre behaviour such as poking a boss once, moving away, and then repeating (as opposed to being able to safely mash a full combo, since in many Konami beat em ups, bosses can just break out of your mash combo whenever they feel like it).

It was interesting, and it was certainly playable when I tried it, but it didn't feel like it was amazing either, but then I do think games which are about evasion are more interesting than blocking systems since blocking can get into a bit of a "memorize what's blockable and what's not, memorize what's worth blocking and what isn't" and it's less intuitive than dodging systems often are. The double tap to dash in the game always ends in an attack (i.e. it's a short dash with ending lag) after a certain distance so you can't really use it for fluid mobility like in other games (the 360 attacks have wide range and are often good for safely dealing damage though).

There's a few spots where M. Janet blocks strategically, and the last couple of bosses look a bit bullshit in terms of really, but it's been 1CC'd, so it can't be totally awful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTVN4sf2TbM

I'm curious what he would rank the difficulty of the 1CC though.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:57 am 



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___SKYe, Sumez, Roo: I feel that the game has great music and a nice atmosphere ripped off (pardon, "inspired by") Miyazaki's early works (Laputa meets Nausicaä, and that's all rip-offs of other fantasy works, etc). I also think that the fairy is not ecchi enough to be fun (eh!). I mostly used the prince, from what I could remember.

Also, I actually finished (1'CC-ed) this, but I remember that it took me forever and it was more of a matter of stubbornness than enjoyment. I clearly remember finishing it ONCE by luck (like, the final boss didn't connect with the kill hit, but I did), showing the finger to the screen, and someone watching my play and exploding into a laughter. Ah, good old days of arcades...

If we use the shmups scale (the one from the Japanese site etc.), it should be a top tier "problem child", since it is not so difficult but really must be played in a certain way, as no other strategies will work.

The truth is: now I am simply too old to find enjoyment in the "poke and evade" Konami style of, well, a quarter of a century ago...I am OK with just cheating through it these days (ah-ah! Confession time!) and have the occasional credit to listen to the music.

Speaking of "Konami gems": I tried out Bucky O'Hare again, and auto-fire seems to suffice to make it rather easy. I tried to play some Asterix, but it feels really unpolished and boring (beat the same few enemies over and over again, few moves, slow pace, etc.).

I am having a go at Moo Mesa before reporting in in this thread, but I feel like the weather is summery enough to have a Konami revival period :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:29 am 


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giving up on clearing with all characters on Mystic Warriors...it's just not fun with Kojiro. I will instead turn on looping in the dip switches and go for a 2-all with Yuri, the best character (next to Spyros technically but whatever :p). will take a while. gotta get consistent with the no miss on the first loop before I even have a chance.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:44 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Sumez wrote:
If you find a way to enjoy it (like what Roo did for Moo Mesa), please be sure to share :P
I kind of feel like I bought a pig in a poke there.


Does that mean you've discovered the joy of Moo Mesa's dodging? :D


Sadly I have not even had the time to fire it up yet. Once I get back home to my videogames, Curse of the Moon is top priority, and the little arcade time I get is dedicated to figuring out Bubble Memories for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:54 am 


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mycophobia wrote:
giving up on clearing with all characters on Mystic Warriors...it's just not fun with Kojiro. I will instead turn on looping in the dip switches and go for a 2-all with Yuri, the best character (next to Spyros technically but whatever :p). will take a while. gotta get consistent with the no miss on the first loop before I even have a chance.


Out of interest did you (or anyone here) clear Sunsetriders? I’m making an effort but keep stumbling at certain points around halfway.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:03 pm 


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One of the locals, pestro87, recently picked up Sunset Riders and has been bringing it to the local meets. I think he's really close to the 1CC (like, getting to the final stage close). It's a tough game, very demanding since you're fairly slow and the dash has no invulnerability. Moo Mesa is a considerably easier game due to the increased mobility and invulnerability dash.

If you can, it's recommended you play with one of the shotgun users as they're a little bit better generally speaking. However a 1CC with the pistol users is definitely doable.

We also discovered hilariously that the gatling gun turret you can use later in the game in SR can kill your partners if you're playing coop!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:11 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Out of interest did you (or anyone here) clear Sunsetriders? I’m making an effort but keep stumbling at certain points around halfway.


Perikles and Ex_Mosquito have. Here's a direct link to Mr. Mosquito's 1CC

Also http://burymewithmymoney.com/ :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 pm 


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BIL wrote:


alright, which of you is to blame for this?
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:08 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
BIL wrote:


alright, which of you is to blame for this?


And all was right with the world. :lol:

BIL wrote:
Perikles and Ex_Mosquito have. Here's a direct link to Mr. Mosquito's 1CC


BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
One of the locals, pestro87, recently picked up Sunset Riders and has been bringing it to the local meets. I think he's really close to the 1CC (like, getting to the final stage close). It's a tough game, very demanding since you're fairly slow and the dash has no invulnerability. Moo Mesa is a considerably easier game due to the increased mobility and invulnerability dash.

If you can, it's recommended you play with one of the shotgun users as they're a little bit better generally speaking. However a 1CC with the pistol users is definitely doable.

We also discovered hilariously that the gatling gun turret you can use later in the game in SR can kill your partners if you're playing coop!


Gonna check out those runs. I need a reliable strat for the two bomber bosses at the end of stage 3, cos every time I think I have them down, they still tag me. Also avoiding the arrows being fired over rocks on stage 5. Grrr.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:04 pm 


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I only ever played the SNES version extensively, where Chief Wigwam née Scalpem was a big enough pain to make me give up
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:09 pm 


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Not 100% sure if this is the right thread (mostly because I made a score thread for some reason) but this Konami chat makes me wanna get back to figuring out G.I. Joe's secrets. And then, I guess, figuring out the KID G.I. Joe games. Mostly the second one, because it's my favorite, but eh.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:31 pm 


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Despatche wrote:
Not 100% sure if this is the right thread (mostly because I made a score thread for some reason) but this Konami chat makes me wanna get back to figuring out G.I. Joe's secrets.


Yeah it's cool, Devastators as well. :wink: We've had some good Cabal/Wild Guns discussions in here, too... I prefer giving smaller 2D action genres a spot over shutting them out.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:21 am 


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Devastators has some inaccuracies on all the emulated versions I've seen that affects how the game is played. For one thing, the missile launcher is not usable on some of the watchtowers you run across into.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:02 am 


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mycophobia wrote:
I only ever played the SNES version extensively, where Chief Wigwam née Scalpem was a big enough pain to make me give up


I remember reading that he actually throws more axes than in the arcade or something along those lines. Too bad there was never an uncensored version of that level for SNES.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:39 am 


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BrianC wrote:
mycophobia wrote:
I only ever played the SNES version extensively, where Chief Wigwam née Scalpem was a big enough pain to make me give up


I remember reading that he actually throws more axes than in the arcade or something along those lines. Too bad there was never an uncensored version of that level for SNES.


You mean knives? He’s one of the game’s more difficult bosses for sure, you need to be really tight on your slide dashes and patient in wearing him down. Also proximity, because if he lands in range of you he takes a quick swipe.

Ex Mosquito’s vid finally helped me strategise those bomber twins, hurrah!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:09 am 


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Jonny2x4 wrote:
Anyway, Monogatari, Koushinkyoku and Jidaigeki were all directed by the duo of Hiroyuki Sekimoto and Mitsuhiro Yoshida (aka Miracle Kidz). They also worked on the SFC version of Dodge Ball and Baseball. That's the reason why those games have such a consistent cast of supporting characters, whereas all the other Kunio games seem to have nothing in common with each other, besides the fact that Kunio (and occasionally Riki) appears in them.

Yoshida was also the director of the Famicom version of Dodgeball, while Sekimoto directed Famicom Double Dragon II. That's the reason why Ryuichi and Ryuji were given the Hyper Knee and Hyper Upper respectively in Koushinkyoku (I think they also had those techniques in Baseball Monogatari IIRC).

The later Kunio games on the Famicom (starting with Hockey Club) were made by a separate Technos subsidiary in Niigata that was established precisely to continue doing Kunio games on the Famicom while the main Tokyo team focused on the Super Famicom. Hence why they have a less consistent continuity to them.


Thanks again for all this, Jonny - it really helps plot a course through the myriad FC/SFC Kunio titles. I'd made a pretty good start on Technos' FC catalogue with the three Kunio street brawlers (Nekketsu Kouha, Monogatari and Jidaigeki) plus Dodgeball and the Double Dragon trilogy, but I was at a total loss with the sports stuff beyond Koushinkyoku. Gonna focus on the Miracle Kidz-related works for now. Yoshida & Sekimoto are maestros of uproarious comic violence. Image
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 am 


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Spent a bit of time with both the arcade Senjou No Ookami and its Famicom port, to see if the actually had some redeemable qualities.

As we already know, the diagonal shots are downright broken, but the game actually becomes playable if you shoot only in the 4 cardinal directions, as the shots come out immediately facing the proper way, as they should. You do lose some of your options, though at times you can make use of the diagonal shots, if you can afford it (where there's some space, or where there's a dangerous target outside the 4-directions range), but you can mostly play the game without them.

Now, if it were the aracade original, you'd die pretty fast, but the FC port has a few quirks that actually makes this feasable.
First, you have a weird hitbox (smaller than the actual sprite), which makes it a bit awkward to pick up items, though this has the fortunate effect of you being able to avoid enemies and bullets more easily than in the arcade original.
Second, though there are an impressive number of enemies and bullets on screen, the game, instead of stopping spawning enemies/bullets when there are already the maximum on-screen, randomly despawns a sprite (either enemy or bullet) to spawn the next one, and so on, meaning you can often get out of sticky situations because of it.
Enemies close to you (those that are already on the screen and sort of follow you around) also tend to not shoot at you at very close range, so you have a bit of leeway to concentrate on the rest of them. This isn't really a hard and fast rule, as eventually they will shoot (later on the subsequent loops, and even as early as stage 4), though it does give make the game seem a bit more fair.
Grenades also take a bit more time to explode, and can throw you off if you're used to the arcade original.

Some things are unique to this version (not present in the arcade game, not sure about the other ports) are random trinkets that appear when you kill some enemies (that give you points), and straircases, that appear when you throw a grenade at specific spots, that lead to a small separate area, that usually has items to collect for points, or POWs (with a few, finite, enemies around) also to be rescued for points. All the staircases I've found where near barricades, where I threw a grenade to kill the soldier taking shelter and it spawned them as well. After exiting this bonus areas, you'll restart at a checkpoint (as you would if you had lost a life).
There are also a new type of enemy that carries a riot shield and throws grenades, and can only be killed with grenades as well (at least I don't remember them from the arcade original).

A few specific areas can, sometimes, be quite hard (especially without the diagonals), like the rocket armed enemies that appear at the start of stage 3 (or 4, I'm not sure now), that may or may not fire a fast flurry of rockets at you, leaving little/no chance of escape. Once again, this isn't hard & fast, and seems to depend on how many other enemies/bullets are on screen, but if you're unlucky, you'll likely lose a life here.

It also has one of the most ridiculous checkpoints I've ever seen (yes, you respawn exactly as shown):

Image

You will die if you fall into these pits, so a single step forward will kill you. :?

Anyway, it's nowhere near what it could have been with proper aiming mechanics, but it actually becomes playable by restricting your aim this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:10 am 


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Indeed, the AC Super Contra workaround (cardinal directions only) applies 1:1 to FC Senjou. I'm okayish with it in ACS, since the game's so short and intense. Gets old fast in FCS's longer haul, though. I want to scramble about like a cornered jackal, not systematically traverse the grid like a chess rook. Or a Dalek. Or a Roomba!

The enemy/bullet despawning is important, for sure. I kinda like it when an action game lets you "hand of god" things in realtime like that, particularly if there's a tradeoff... see The Ninja Warriors Again, whose four spawn slots are shared by enemies and items alike. Very handy to know during the last stage's hangar onslaught; I like leaving the HP restore uncollected as long as possible, so the bigger enemies have less backup. OTOH, less enemies means less projectiles for crowd control.

I've noticed this a lot in Downtown Nekketsu, too - as long as a fallen enemy's coin is left uncollected and bouncing, you're free to focus 100% on the current target (or flee the area without fear of the screen edge-riding camera getting you an undodgeable fist in the face, if you're in bad shape).

Don't forget FC Senjou's Ultimate Maneuver - hold [select] to flip Joe's sprite so bullets fly out of his ass. :lol: The overall glitchiness almost brings to mind Micronics... though mercifully, it lacks their telltale choppy, sluggish motion. With the aiming lag fixed it'd be quite acceptable.

(MICRONICS QUALITY™)

__SKYe wrote:
It also has one of the most ridiculous checkpoints I've ever seen (yes, you respawn exactly as shown):

[img]

You will die if you fall into these pits, so a single step forward will kill you. :?


Haha, when that happened I was all "mother fucker you had best be joking ಠ_ಠ " waiting to see if Joe would die the instant I gained control. :mrgreen:

Quote:
There are also a new type of enemy that carries a riot shield and throws grenades, and can only be killed with grenades as well (at least I don't remember them from the arcade original).


Interesting, I wonder if those are meant to be referenced by the similar enemies in the topdown segments of FC Senjou's crossover sequel Top Secret: Hitler no Fukkatsu.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:31 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Indeed, the AC Super Contra workaround (cardinal directions only) applies 1:1 to FC Senjou. I'm okayish with it in ACS, since the game's so short and intense. Gets old fast in FCS's longer haul, though. I want to scramble about like a cornered jackal, not systematically traverse the grid like a chess rook. Or a Dalek. Or a Roomba!


I wasn't sure if you had played it extensively, but I more or less tried it to finally decide if it was, at the very least, worth playing. I'm happy it is, though as you say, it would be much better with the arcade game's bullet spraying, intense action.

BIL wrote:
The enemy/bullet despawning is important, for sure. I kinda like it when an action game lets you "hand of god" things in realtime like that, particularly if there's a tradeoff... see The Ninja Warriors Again, whose four spawn slots are shared by enemies and items alike. Very handy to know during the last stage's hangar onslaught; I like leaving the HP restore uncollected as long as possible, so the bigger enemies have less backup. OTOH, less enemies means less projectiles for crowd control.


Ah yeah, that sort of sprite management by the player's part is cool, but in SnO, as good as it feels to cheat death due to a despawned enemy/bullet, it feels a bit weird to see stuff quickly spawning and despawning all the time.
It seems to be more common in sections where there are fixed spawn points, like the vehicles that sometimes appear, the houses/barracks that spawn enemies, as well as the end of level bases. It also does seem to be favouring spawning enemies instead of bullets, at least early on.

BIL wrote:
Don't forget FC Senjou's Ultimate Maneuver - hold [select] to flip Joe's sprite so bullets fly out of his ass. :lol: The overall glitchiness almost brings to mind Micronics... though mercifully, it lacks their telltale choppy, sluggish motion. With the aiming lag fixed it'd be quite acceptable.


Didn't know about this one, but will try it. :lol:

BIL wrote:
Haha, when that happened I was all "mother fucker you had best be joking ಠ_ಠ " waiting to see if Joe would die the instant I gained control. :mrgreen:


Yeah, I couldn't believe that they would spawn you right over the pit, and actually lost a life the first time. A bit odd, but fortunately it is the only such checkpoint, at least to my knowledge.

BIL wrote:
Interesting, I wonder if those are meant to be referenced by the similar enemies in the topdown segments of FC Senjou's crossover sequel Top Secret: Hitler no Fukkatsu.


Haven't played that one much at all, but I know for a fact that the arcade game doesn't have them in the first 4 levels at least (it's been a while since I've reached the later levels, so I'm not totally sure).
It's these ones:

Spoiler: show
Image


Something I forgot earlier, is that the weird hitbox will also make you clip you to weird places, like the top of palmtrees or the top-left edges of the guard towers in stage 4.

Spoiler: show
Image


And of course, what are sketchy ports without a bit of engrish. :lol:

Spoiler: show
Image


BIL wrote:
(MICRONICS QUALITY™)


Hehe, quality indeed. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:18 am 


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BIL wrote:

Thanks again for all this, Jonny - it really helps plot a course through the myriad FC/SFC Kunio titles. I'd made a pretty good start on Technos' FC catalogue with the three Kunio street brawlers (Nekketsu Kouha, Monogatari and Jidaigeki) plus Dodgeball and the Double Dragon trilogy, but I was at a total loss with the sports stuff beyond Koushinkyoku. Gonna focus on the Miracle Kidz-related works for now. Yoshida & Sekimoto are maestros of uproarious comic violence. Image



A bit of warning. SFC Dodge Ball and Baseball Monogatari are pretty text-heavy. The former requires you navigate menus before starting a match, since you must create your team before starting the tournament. I wouldn't recommend them if you don't have at least some rudimentary Japanese comprehension or you're playing a fan-translation (I'm not sure if they've ever been patched).

I think I brought this up before, but Mitsuhiro Yoshida actually had a doujin group under the Miracle Kidz name in which he released an unofficial Kunio-kun Dodgeball game for PC which even included a ROM patch for Downtown Nekketsu Monogatari EX that adds new characters and areas. He even sold reproductions of the game design documents, artbooks and music CDs of the games he worked on.
http://mkidz.jp/


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:07 am 


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Thanks, bookmarked! I'm glad these guys are still around in some capacity... excellent to hear he'd contribute to Monogatari EX like that.

And yeah, I always expect going into unlocalised Technos games that I'll need to cobble together a language work-around. :mrgreen: Between FAQs, videos and the odd fan translation, I can usually scrape past. Currently playing Olympus no Tatakai with a printed-off NES text dump, haha. Not ideal, but the monolingual can't be choosers. I play ARPG-leaning stuff more to devise a single session clear than any narrative experience, tbh, so I don't mind much at all. With stuff like Jidaigeki that's received translation, I'll usually do initial runs in emulation, then move onto my cart once I've gotten the rough layouts down.

I actually printed out the shop/item lists from a River City Ransom FAQ, for my Monogatari playthrough (surprisingly, given RCR's cult following, it doesn't seem to have gotten a fan translation). I was feeling kinda cheap, with it letting me see exactly which items granted what stats, but then my copy arrived in the post and I'm pretty sure its fat little booklet contained exactly the same info anyway (in Japanese Image ). Same goes for Jidaigeki, IIRC.

On the subject of Technos and text, I'd always heard the SFC Kunio brawlers suffered from reams of unskippable cutscenes, so I never checked them out. Hearing Kishimoto was involved in the second piques my interest slightly, though.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:16 pm 


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BIL wrote:
On the subject of Technos and text, I'd always heard the SFC Kunio brawlers suffered from reams of unskippable cutscenes, so I never checked them out. Hearing Kishimoto was involved in the second piques my interest slightly, though.


They do, though fortunately both have an english patch available. On the other hand, you still have to wade through them, which is a bit of a bummer especially on subsequent playthroughs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 pm 


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BIL wrote:
I'd forgotten just how closely this game mimics Zelda II's engine. :shock: It handles almost like a re-sprite.


Something interesting about The Battle of Olympus is that they imitated Zelda 2's controls so closely that both games share a movement glitch. If you press left and right at the same time (using a modified controller or an emulator) Link and Orpheus will accelerate to superhuman speeds. Here are TASes demonstrating the glitch in Zelda 2 and The Battle of Olympus if anyone's interested in seeing that.

Skykid wrote:
Out of interest did you (or anyone here) clear Sunsetriders? I’m making an effort but keep stumbling at certain points around halfway.


I have. If by "around halfway" you mean Chief Scalpem's stage, that's by far the hardest part of the game. I seldom pass the parts where they shoot burning arrows from behind rocks without losing a life or two. For Scalpem himself, staying relatively close to him and macrododging his knives with the slide works well.

If I remember right, there's a version of Sunset Riders that removes all extends from the game, so watch out for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:30 pm 


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BIL wrote:
I actually printed out the shop/item lists from a River City Ransom FAQ, for my Monogatari playthrough (surprisingly, given RCR's cult following, it doesn't seem to have gotten a fan translation). I was feeling kinda cheap, with it letting me see exactly which items granted what stats, but then my copy arrived in the post and I'm pretty sure its fat little booklet contained exactly the same info anyway (in Japanese Image ). Same goes for Jidaigeki, IIRC.


I've been meaning to do a fan-translation of DNM myself (particularly last year, when I was hacking the JP ROM for unused dialogue), but I get the impression that most western Kunio fans don't particularly care about the lore of the series as long as they get to play the games in a language they understand. In some of the early fan-translations for the series, the characters were often given made-up names. Even the titles were not accurately translated (for example Ike Ike! Nekketsu Hockey-Bu, which is supposed to be "Go Go! Nekketsu Hockey Team" is translated as "Ice Ice! Hockey Challenge"). I'm guessing this is why Aksys/Natsume have localized the last few Kunio games under the River City brand name, despite having nothing to do with River City Ransom in terms of story.

Anyway, the plot of DNM and RCR differ in quite a few ways. RCR starts off with a ransom letter (hence the title), whereas the opening text on DNM is actually a conversation between Kunio and Riki that occurs before the start of the game that sets up their alliance (since they were enemies in the original Nekketsu Kouha). Roxy is Slick's girlfriend in RCR, whereas Hasebe, Yamada and Kunio were simply former middle school classmates in DNM (Yamada also breaks the fourth wall in the end by claiming that if he defeats Kunio, the next game will be titled Nekketsu Kouha Yamada-kun).

One detail I love about DMN that got lost in RCR are the game cartridges you can buy in the toy shop. In RCR, they went with made-up names for the games, but in DNM they're actually references to previous TJC games (namely Nekketsu Kouha, Dodge Ball and Double Dragon). There's also a fictional book based on Xain'D Sleena in the bookstore.

Quote:
On the subject of Technos and text, I'd always heard the SFC Kunio brawlers suffered from reams of unskippable cutscenes, so I never checked them out. Hearing Kishimoto was involved in the second piques my interest slightly, though.

Kunio-tachi no Banka has a pretty expansive movelist, but it also suffers from the fact that it's an SFC beat-'em-up where you only get to fight up to two enemies on-screen in most situations.

Shodai is more RPG-like, but plays very differently from DMN. Instead of accumulating money to buy items to raise your stats, you simply gain experience points by defeating enemies and eventually gain new moves once you reach certain levels. Battles work very similarly to the random encounters in the Ryu Ga Gotoku series, in the sense that you're challenged by random NPCs and you're forced to stay in one place until you defeat all the bad guys. To be honest, the game is pretty much rough around the edges and rather unfinished, considering you can beat up wandering NPCs without any penalty and still gain experience points. Also, 2P co-op is pretty broken, since friendly fire cannot be turned off and it only takes a few punches to beat the other player.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:39 pm 


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I don't like either of the SNES Kunio brawlers, but I want to try the 3DS games, localized as Tokyo Rumble and Rival Showdown.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:51 am 


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I just recorded a quick Sunset Riders clear with notes on what I think is the best way to solve the harder parts of the game. I figured out how to deal with those archers behind the rocks too.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:14 pm 


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Mortificator wrote:
I don't like either of the SNES Kunio brawlers, but I want to try the 3DS games, localized as Tokyo Rumble and Rival Showdown.


I'm not too familiar with them, since I don't own a 3DS yet.

Anyway, I forgot there's actually an earlier patch of Miracle Kidz' DNMex ROM hack hidden in their site. I would imagined it's not as extensive as the one that is included in their PC Dodge Ball game, but it still adds plenty of content to the game.
http://mkidz.jp/maruhi/


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