Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BrianC]

Kind of annoys me that Rastan didn't receive any good console ports in Japan, while the lame sequel is on both MD and PCE. There's a non-JP Master System port, no idea how it compares to the AC game though... I might pick up Taito Memories Joukan (PS2) just to have a hard copy of some sort. I am weird like this, and indeed in other regards. :3 Collecting, wheee!

Not a console port, but JP did get a near identical (as far as I can tell) GG port of the SMS version of Rastan (GG version runs in SMS mode and only difference seems to be altered weapon icons to make them more visible). Odd how JP ended up getting some SMS games for the first time on GG.

[Squire Grooktook]

-How is Gunhound EX? How does it compare to Gigantic Army?

It's stylish and fast with sexy handling and feedback (the dash feels great, as does the brutal impact of your secondary/heavy weapons), but doesn't have quite the meaty combat design or aggressive and chaotic enemy behavior that makes GA a classic. It's solid in all regards, and has some unique strengths of its own, so it's well worth a run for mecha side scroller enthusiasts, but I rank GA a bit higher.

[Perikles]

Been messing around a bit with Sunset Riders which is quite interesting from a mechanical standpoint despite a few irregularities. Its selling point are assuredly the boss fights, both on a cinematic and a conceptual level. It woefully lacks in the stage department, however, as most of the enemies are somewhat carelessly strewn into the fray without much strategical consideration. Thanks to the wonky camera handling it is even possible to bypass most of the stages by continuously sliding as the game cannot keep track with the player - that's why you always center the camera as BIL rightfully pointed out on numerous occasions.

What's really interesting about the game (besides the satisfying setpieces and the joyful mayhem) is how it operates in light of boss fights and denser bullet patterns. The hitboxes are fairly huge in this game, making it pretty rough to evade trickier patterns. If you're on the opposite side of the screen against Chief Scalpem, for example, you're most likely not going to be able to jump over the knives and even when you slide under them there's a good chance that he'll greet you with a deadly swipe. It's safe to declaim that the main focus lies on positioning in this game (and using the invincibility frames you get when switching between floors, especially on the final boss) and less so on quick adjustments.

Interestingly enough, the Genesis port of the game shifts the focal point to the stages themselves (there are only four bosses left in this version), although I want to say with patchy success. Regular enemies are a lot more aggressive in this conversion, sometimes firing five or more shots in rapid succession before going back into cover or "reloading". The problem is that this sometimes leads to almost unavoidable deaths when you're moving along at a brisk pace while one enemy shoots from a window and another one suddenly appears from behind; you cannot jump over all the bullets, by the time you're out of your slide you're probably going to get hit by another one, killing the enemies won't do you any good. The game tries to compensate for this by literally throwing extends after you in each of the bonus stages which feels remarkably sloppy.

The SNES version on the other hand sticks to the arcade original in a convincing manner. I love that there's finally a separate button for sliding as I constantly mess up the input in the original on the final stage - it's so easy to accidentally slide instead of jumping down a floor (or vice versa) and pathetically die as a result. Yeah, I'm clumsy like that. Boss fights mostly work in the same way (Chief Scalpem - that is to say Chief Wigwam in this version - is actually harder regarding his knives, but you can jump over the swipe and get him into a beautiful rhythm which will kill him in mere seconds) but they had to cut out some of the more ambitious graphical stuff, of course.

What is the general consensus among the gentlemen here concerning this game and its ports?

[BIL]

I'm only on nodding terms with the AC game and its ports, unfortunately - would've definitely looked into the latter by now if Konami hadn't denied both JP release. Thanks for the detailed impressions and version comparisons, will very likely refer back to those when I finally tear myself away from the NTSCJ stuff!

I do love that one image macro "BURY ME WITH MY MONEY"

Been previewing more HuCards, enjoying the last of my break trying cutesier titles I'd skimmed past. I seem to have become an inveterate Violent Gamer and just want to see metal, stone and blood these days, but I'm sticking with it! Son Son 2 does seem very cool as per Kino's recommendation.

[trap15]

I do love that one image macro "BURY ME WITH MY MONEY"

Even better: http://burymewithmymoney.com/

[BIL]

Oh wow.

edit: this reminds me of Mystic Warriors, Konami's other post-Contra run n' gun that I've barely played. Some quality lines in that one... also, the heroes' Kidnapped Best Buddy has a name that sounds uncannily like the Spanish expletive "coño," and the characters are screaming it constantly in cutscenes. "COÑ-OOOOOO!" My grandma was appalled.

edit: turns out it's only if you play as Brad. Behold, the Konami "COÑ-OOOOOO!"

[trap15]

I've been meaning to play that, watched a run through on replayburners, looked pretty tough. But that soundtrack tho

[GSK]

Kind of annoys me that Rastan didn't receive any good console ports in Japan, while the lame sequel is on both MD and PCE. There's a non-JP Master System port, no idea how it compares to the AC game though... I might pick up Taito Memories Joukan (PS2) just to have a hard copy of some sort. I am weird like this, and indeed in other regards. :3 Collecting, wheee!

Rastan SMS was developed in Japan by Taito, so rest assured, it's not a euro job. It's also one of the many western-only SMS games with FM music; the PSG tunes are pretty dire, so I suggest taking the FM option if you can.

It's more of a conversion than a port: the levels are modified/condensed, there are a few new enemies and a new boss, a lot of the instant-death obstacles now just do damage, etc. I also wanna say they gave Rastan a wall-kick or a wall-jump or something, I'll have to go back and refresh. It seemed like an adequate job--much better than Argos no Juujiken, at least.

[Ghegs]

I have a Mystic Warriors PCB and some years ago I was chasing after the 1CC. I got pretty far too, up to Stage 6 or 7 I think it was. The one where you're riding in a minecart the whole time. That stage's boss is a nightmare if you're playing solo, it was clearly designed to be tackled with multiple players so that the aimed shots are spread between all the players, rather than all of them going after the solitary player. Never managed to beat it. I watched a Japanese solo superplay of it and even that player got through only by the skin of his teeth, with one hitpoint left.

Still a pretty cool game, though. And there were quite a few instances where you can notice that the game has inspired later Konami run 'n guns.

[BrianC]

Rastan SMS was developed in Japan by Taito, so rest assured, it's not a euro job. It's also one of the many western-only SMS games with FM music; the PSG tunes are pretty dire, so I suggest taking the FM option if you can.

Too bad that option can't be taken with the Japan only Game Gear version (it runs in SMS mode, but FM sound seems to have been removed, telling from emulators). I still plan to get the SMS one rather than the GG version, especially since I have a tototek SMS to Mark III adapter and a JP SMS.

[BIL]

Ta for the SMS Rastan infos, GSK and Brian! Sounds worth trying out at the least. I never thought I'd find JP stuff easier to acquire of than US/EU exclusives, doh.

Been enjoying Legend of Hero Tonma, another great Irem HuCard ala Vigilante, Mr. Heli and Ninja Spirit (I'd say "great Irem port," but the only one of these I'm familiar with in arcade format is NS). Platform shooter with a "chibi dark fantasy" aesthetic; very Wardner-esque. Everything's stubby and chubby and evil-lookin', in dire need of blasting. I love the first stage's "abandoned prison island" effect, with its placid skies, crumbling walls and unkempt grass. Sprites are charmingly detailed - blast a Catholic Chinese Vampire before it can escape its coffin, and enjoy its "O_O" face as the lid slams unceremoniously shut! st3's vivid contrast of petrified forest against tangerine sky is genuinely beautiful. This is easily among the prettiest HuCards I've seen, even if the style isn't my favourite. Tonma himself wears a glower of perpetual consternation, framed by Hitchcock jowls... looks kinda funny with his finger-wagging shot animation. Ever seen the end of the 70s Body Snatchers? Yeah exactly!

Pacing reminds me of platform slasher Chiki Chiki Boys, sprinting through action-packed stages mowing down legions of stubby foes. Weaponry and indeed shooting feels decidedly STG, with a beefy MAX shot and selection of chasing missiles. Tonma can put a lot of fire onscreen, and he needs to; a fragile shield powerup is his only refuge from instant death. Befitting its arcade heritage and Irem pedigree, this is a much more rampant, satisfying action game than screenshots might suggest.

Blasting is nicely tempered by a little hop n' bop, SMB3-style. Tonma can stomp enemies for a bit of damage, a cute stun animation, and most importantly an optional jump boost. It's a fun option to have, and hugely useful in the vertical stages, whose hordes I'd tried blasting through to little avail. Flying enemies like bats are a mildly annoying exception to this mechanic, and will kill Tonma dead on contact - I quickly learned to treat them as projectiles. You can also hold [up] to drastically slow your descent via the cape, a great tool for both epic leaps and hovering just outside enemy range.

Decided to pick this one up after reaching st4, loving the arcadey pace and resistance. Hopefully it won't go to hell at the 11th hour but eh. Ninja Spirit does and it's still one of my favourite games ever. Evens out imo.

[Ex_Mosquito]

@perickles: Sunsetrides slide is pretty broken isn't it. You can pretty much speedrun the whole game by hugging the far right of the screen with only a few small adjustments needed on certain sections. The bullets angles can be a bit of a nightmare because of the huge hit box and fixed jumping height, I feel Konami could have fixed this by giving you a variable jump for small nifty hop possibilities. Tbh the knives aren't that hard to dodge if you limit the angles by staying under him, I think the real test of deadly bullet trajectory dodging is the fort boss at the end of the 2nd horse stage, talk about a tight squeeze!! I did a speedrun of the AC version a few years ago, excuse the last boss spaz-out, I blame it on the Guiness :/

http://youtu.be/BIBo0dKdtno

[Ex_Mosquito]

@BIL: How are finding the PCE AC mode on Ninja Spirit? I gave it a try the other week and it seems significantly easier the original arcade version. I personally feel the lower difficulty is due to technical limitation of the PCE. Their vigilante conversion suffered from this as well, gameplay wise it's a carbon copy of the AC version as regards to the gameplay nuances and tactics but with less enemies. Ninja Spirit suffers from this also, the battle field (arguably the hardest stage) is far easier because of it, and missing out the final stage charging mid-boss all together.

[BIL]

@BIL: How are finding the PCE AC mode on Ninja Spirit? I gave it a try the other week and it seems significantly easier the original arcade version. I personally feel the lower difficulty is due to technical limitation of the PCE. Their vigilante conversion suffered from this as well, gameplay wise it's a carbon copy of the AC version as regards to the gameplay nuances and tactics but with less enemies.

This definitely describes PCE Ninja Spirit. Handling and general play is accurate to a fault, but enemy numbers are toned down from the arcade's hellacious extremes. I think the PCE's smaller resolution is mostly to blame; viewable playfield is much tighter at all times. Generally not an issue until stage 6, where the PCE simply can't match the AC's filmic, enemy-loaded vista. I've been playing both back to back over Christmas, and was feeling like doing a quick stage by stage rundown:

st1 + st2: pretty much the same as the arcade (neither even register on the difficulty curve, of course). st2 boss reveals a minor change: enemies that chase you into the arena will be auto-killed. This screws up st3's boss unfortunately.

st3: this is my joint favourite AC stage, and I really like how the port handled it. Close enough that I can freely transpose strategies between versions*. Bunnyhopping across the marsh warding off zako with the sword and scanning for monks feels great! The boss has the only PCE change that really annoys me, due to its pointlessness: no rifleman backup. Jump-roping over him while swatting his rifles with the chain is hardly rocket science, but it's a fun rhythmic challenge and I can't believe the PCE couldn't have handled it. Eh.

*with one big exception: AC giants only slash when close, PCE's lash out at regular intervals. Works out about the same - the AC's is cooler and more menacing, though! As are the tiny, unseen dips and mounds in the grass... adds to the sense of grim peril, like a lesser hero might twist an ankle and be promptly hacked to bits by the horde.

st4: my other arcade favourite, and again, mostly dead-on. Spikey basement is just as cruel about spawning samurai at precisely the worst moment. Bosses are a bit easier, as you can leap directly from floor to ceiling by pressing against them on the way up.

Stages 3 and 4 rely more on specific enemy spawns and environmental danger than st6's total onslaught - so I'm really glad the port didn't unnecessarily water them down.

st5: actually easier to get killed here, due to the smaller resolution making gas traps harder to spot before jumping. At first I thought I was rusty, but ad-libbing up the cliff with the sword is a really bad idea. Lack of time limit cancels this out, though. I always found this stage out of place in the game's difficulty curve, and the PCE port is of course an easier game overall, so the added danger isn't unwelcome.

st6: without question the most toned down stage. You can pretty much bunnyhop it like st3's marsh and do fine - still fun, but far from the AC's brutal wall. Mostly excusable for technical reasons, but I hate how its samurai lack the jumping slash (they behave exactly like st4's, and are totally harmless in mid-air).

st7: no boss monk, and seemingly less frequent samurai, dialing the intensity way down. OTOH the gas traps are prickly as ever, and the fucking ninja pit is possibly worse due to lower resolution. Or it would be, if they didn't add an easy path. Honestly, if there was ever justification for junking an AC stage in favour of something new... boss's homing attacks are still good fun, at least.

Spoiler

Overall, I love the PCE port. It can't match the AC's punishing end-game difficulty, but captures easily enough of its lunar intensity to rank among the finest ninja sidescrollers. I just wish it didn't suffer from the same weedy BGM as all Irem's HuCards. I wouldn't really mind, except they all include rather elaborate sound tests! Makes me wish they'd put that effort elsewhere.

[evil_ash_xero]

I just ordered a copy of Dead Fox. I'm going to have to get better at this game. I'm awful.

[BIL]

It's hard as hell. The best Rolling Thunder and Shinobi nobody talks about... one of my FC treasures. Only downside is main dude running around ass-naked.

[evil_ash_xero]

His death pose is....quite embarrassing.

Is anything cut out, if you play it on Easy? I like to take the path of least resistance, on these Famicom titles.

What's also interesting, is that on both the JP and US versions of this, neither of them look anything like the main character.

[BIL]

Indeed - check out his little-known and (obviously!) NWS cameo in Metal Gear Solid! :O

Spoiler

Hmm, no idea about difficulty changes... I've been playing on Normal myself, more than tough enough for my liking. By stage 5 it's gotten tight as hell, you really need that razor-sharp air control.

[evil_ash_xero]

I knew I recognized him from somewhere!

Yeah, I was wondering, because with Double Dragon II (which I'm working on), has the stages cut out, as you know.

From what I can tell, you have 7 stages, one way or another, in Dead Fox. Any regional differences?

[BIL]

No changes beyond text, IIRC, from the quick glance I gave The Cutting Room Floor when I picked up my cart. Capcom seemed pretty good about that on FC/NES... 2010SF is just as uncompromisingly tough in both regions too.

re Double Dragon II, the FC version not only has a max difficulty way beyond the NES equivalent, I seem to recall it'll also let you play the whole game (and continue) on any difficulty. Will have to refresh my memory on that...

edit: yep, FC doesn't care what difficulty you choose. The vicious enemy AI of its "Hard" setting utterly outclasses the NES's "Supreme Master," too (Knee's a lot less dominant, it'll often trade compared to other moves). Really the definitive version.

[evil_ash_xero]

re Double Dragon II, the FC version not only has a max difficulty way beyond the NES equivalent, I seem to recall it'll also let you play the whole game (and continue) on any difficulty. Will have to refresh my memory on that...

edit: yep, FC doesn't care what difficulty you choose. The vicious enemy AI of its "Hard" setting utterly outclasses the NES's "Supreme Master," too (Knee's a lot less dominant, it'll often trade compared to other moves). Really the definitive version.

Honestly, it's the weird platforming that kills me, most of the time.

[BIL]

I know the FC's "Easy" setting simplifies Mission 6's vanishing platforms, a bit (NES uses the equivalent "Hard" pattern no matter what difficulty you're on). Not sure if it helps elsewhere. You can also continue if things go awry, particularly helpful with Mission 7's cornucopia of spikes to fall on.

But yeah, the platforming's a pain in the ass. :3 Though I find it less annoying than that of the other two FC ports with their touchier controls.

[evil_ash_xero]

Only downside is main dude running around ass-naked.

[BIL]

TACTICAL NATURIST SIDESCROLLING
PIXEL DONG RIGID

Been playing lots of Image Fight lately, enjoying getting back up to speed after ages away from genuine arcade STGs and their brutal wallop. It's been particularly interesting going back after Metal Storm. st4's mecha labyrinth screams MS, both the crisp techno motif and its gravity-twisting concept (presumably the ship's in a sheer vertical climb, akin to the final stage's headlong dive - but maybe not?). I wonder if it might've rubbed off on a future Tamtex staffer.

Madou Ou Granzort [SuperGrafx] Tricky, this one. System is rock-solid, prime basis for a marauding slasher ala Rastan. Death is instant barring rare shields, enemies are aggressive, and the sword/whip/shot triad is in constant rotation. Sprites are chunky, collision is sound... it handles really nicely overall.

Unfortunately, four stages in, their design is more Meta Fight (FC): sequential, discrete, cramped labyrinths to wander in search of an exit. Extends arrive by the truckload - not unwarranted, with the uneasy combo of aimless wandering and ever-spawning instadeath. Impossible to not wish for a classically linear, rollicking course to gradually conquer on sparing resources... I'd gone from delighted to lukewarm before calling it a day. Worth a look at least. Promising early bosses make me want to return at some point.

Shinobi [HuCard] Looks nice. Sounds nice. Handles nice - until we learn there's no close combat. What the fuck. My contempt is smouldering... Die.

Spoiler

Meanwhile the Mark III port does have close combat, but looks, sounds and handles just like shit! They're avin a larf aint they? :[ Drive a man to clarky cat, ffs.

I didn't have the heart to try out the much-slandered Strider Arcade Card port just yet. It's funny how wildly the quality and feel of PCE arcade ports can vary... some real duds lurking amongst the shining Cottons, Forgotten Worlds and Gofer no Yabous! WTF @ Telenet's Golden Axe, bahaha. Part of the fun of casual port archaeology, I think.

[copy-paster]

Playing Ryukenden recently and reach 6-2's 'disappearing enemies', that trick works but the birds and the bat is really annoying, even more than jetpack ninjas.

[BIL]

Regarding the infamous lobber-guarded jump at 6-2's third floor: by far the simplest solution is to carry in the Jumpslash from 6-1, and make sure you reach it with enough ammo for at least two uses (I prefer three, to be safe). That's more than enough firepower to shred everything in your way, provided you're steadily proceeding right. JS lets you gain ground with impunity - exploit this and break through the chokepoint.

It's by no means impossible without JS, but the sheer ease of that method makes it a no-brainer.

6-2's by far the game's toughest stage. It's a mistake to consider yourself home free once it's over, though. If you've just barely squeaked through, it may come back to haunt you with a hellish vengeance after the equally infamous Boss Rush Knockback. Thermonuclear frustration is a real danger in this event! Guard against it by mastering a good 6-2 strategy. ;3

Tonma can stomp enemies for a bit of damage, a cute stun animation, and most importantly an optional jump boost. It's a fun option to have, and hugely useful in the vertical stages, whose hordes I'd tried blasting through to little avail. Flying enemies like bats are a mildly annoying exception to this mechanic, and will kill Tonma dead on contact - I quickly learned to treat them as projectiles.

Irem agreed. Bats etc count as small projectiles, and will snuff on contact with the shield (larger, stompable enemies will take a chunk of it with them). I was previously running my ass off in st3's woods, trying to keep my shiny new shield intact for the excellent tunnel gauntlet. Typically involved, satisfying Irem design... shield stops sniper bullets. Subweapon kills snipers. Main shot is free to demolish heavies who'll otherwise punch through the shield to instakill you. Really nice wizardy run/gun, this.

---

edit: definitely on the easy side though, certainly compared to PCE Ninja Spirit's considerably difficult Arcade Mode. Just got my copy and the 1LC was no thing. Replays are a blast, though! An arcade-trim hop n' bop while firing shots romp. The last couple stages are nicely busy... even if you can keep everything at safe distance with Tonma's firepower, the pressure is definitely there. It's no razor-edged Metal Storm or Ninja Spirit, but lovable nonetheless. I might finally give those Gen-San FC games a look now.

And oh hey, Atlas Vids' panoramic replays are pretty cool. The effect's understandably not flawless, but I find these oddly relaxing to watch... particularly more scenic stuff like Daimakaimura. I'm sure I've linked to the channel in the past, but don't think it was in this thread.

Makes me want to fire up Batman right the hell nao:

Spoiler

[BIL]

Hory cow, I've been up way too late playing Demon's Crest after the mentions in What Not Shump got me in the mood. I'd forgotten just how frickin beyootiful this game is... a masterpiece of rich colours, playfully wicked designs, and stunning locations both natural and artifical.

Spoiler

URL ends in "GNg," IMGUR KNOWS WHATS UP BOYEEE

Spoiler

I'd also forgotten how enjoyable it is to 100% in a single sitting, ferreting out the various hidden places and items while knocking over bosses. Great collect 'em up pacing, even with my stopping every few minutes to gawk at TEH GRAFX.

And to make this a triptych of faulty recollections, I must break out the usual similes involving razors and airlocks, because this game is sharp and tight as hell. Full marks on the videogame holy trinity of reponsiveness, collision and feedback, a joy to handle. My two complaints are much the same as always: too much "form X breaks block Y but not Z" fragmentation, and somewhat basic-feeling bosses until Phalanx/TLB finally turn up the heat (blisteringly so, in the latter's case). Also brutal slowdown with more than three enemies onscreen but it's easily forgiven, as generally I kill them off before that occurs.


Ultimately I still prefer the second game's focus on hardcore action/platforming and a handful of strong mechanics, but as more of an ARPG the third is still fine as hell.

Spoiler

Yup that's totally a Damnd reference in my Capcom headcanon. He died and went to Makai after Haggar accidentally suplexed him into a dumpster full of crack needles in my FF fanfic. (^ ω ^)

[Squire Grooktook]

The art direction ever

[cicada88]

BIL i believe you turned me on to Red Arremer on Famicom a couple years ago in the NES thread. I went into it with pretty low expectations but I would say that's a top 20 8-Bit Nintendo game.

It's so polished in presentation it feels like it could be on a 16-bit console almost.

Never played any other in the series yet, but I will someday

[BIL]

Man, it really has been a couple years hasn't it? Can't believe I ever hesitated to get into the FC. That's a great thread, we should resurrect it sometime. Highway Star's my most recent new FC love. Intense as hell! BGM switch on [up] is its only flaw, but it's so good I frickin play with a modded junk pad! Owned, game!

Capcom had a helluva sidescroller run in the FC's latter years. Dead Fox, Little Nemo, 2010SF and Arremer 2 are all first-rate, and highly diverse too. Totally acquits them of the Rockman sequelitis they'd started getting stick for around then, imo. (not that I think they need acquitting... FC Rockmen are kinda like MD Sonics: not my cup of tea, but undoubtedly funded stuff I do go nuts for ).

[gif]

The art direction ever

Thunder Force V's "It was dead, but alive at the same time" comes to mind with this game. Radiates paradoxic sepulchral vibrance. Demon World actually seems to be in fairly rude health, far from some stock underworld. It's just full of strife and naturally enough death. Helps that you're in the role of a native son clawing his way to the top of the bonepile, of course. So much cooler than the prior games' chosen one nonsense. Just wanna be gangster no.1, and not end up like one of those pitiful failures in the iron maidens.

Tangentially I've long fancied a hardcore action game that goes ULTRA BEASTO - totally inhuman, amoral, balls-out monster warring! I suppose the esteemed CHIMERA BEAST is the closest I've seen, but it involves Earth and loses that sheer xeno-factor.

Spoiler

Calcium for strong bones, kids!