Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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__SKYe
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

BIL wrote:Yeah, they're still quite polite in that regard. :mrgreen: As with DDIIFC, enemies technically can rescue their comrades, but only by "accident" (ie, you start a grapple after they've launched an attack).
Haha, even though they turned evil, some of the martial artist's spirit still remains. :lol:
BIL wrote:It's a shame DD1's vicious enemy interference vanished from not only its FC sequels, but RODD too. It's not like it'd cramp the choreography; in that GIF, I could've just thrown the Williams immediately if I thought Roper was going to backstab me. I guess it was a "player service," like Toaplan's sealing of sniper tank bullets at point-blank in their STGs.
I would also prefer this. An important point of 1-vs-crowd action games is precisely dealing with multiple enemies at once, so having the other enemies just hold off on attacking you while you're busy pounding their comrade is somewhat odd.
It's also a bit odd, since even their first game, Kunio-kun/Renegade, which had even more enemies on screen at once, won't allow you to do this, as the other enemies will immediately move in on you (even the FC port is like this).
BIL wrote:And then there's DD1's double strongman battles. What a bizarre thing, how such a technically rough, at times outright struggling game ended up with all these unique goodies. :o Certainly helps it hold its own, at least.
At the very least it is much more competent than most give it credit for, and a pretty respectable series start on the FC.
FinalBaton wrote:I also like how some enemies duck under your kicks and other won't, some will anti-air and other won't, etc. That really makes you approach each enemy type differently. Which is a great thing for a beat 'em up's gameplay
Yeah, it forces you to vary your approach. I think it was in DD2 (was a while ago so I'm not sure) that I started relying more on the uppercut as a finisher, despite its lower damage output, since it always hits, unlike the spinkick.
BIL wrote:The game's director Muneki Ebinuma is a really interesting guy, who later served as planner for the superlative Double Dragon Advance - I recommend the interview with him here (think you may have translated it, Johnny? Sterling work).
Loved the interview, thanks for the link. :wink:
It was great to see just how much Muneki really cherished the series and went on to create a great entry, especially given the constraints on the project.

Just a little note, for those who read the interview and think that 32MiB is a lot of space, he (or the translator) actually meant 32Mbit, so you have to divide by 8 to get the actual size -> 4MiB.

It is indeed very little space, and I really wonder just how much more they could have put into it, if only they had more space.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

As often happens when I'm reminded of old favourites ITT, I ended up putting some time on Return of DD last night. Have to correct myself slightly - enemies actually can interfere in your grapples. However it's very ad-hoc; nothing like the "blood in the water" treachery of DD1FC's enemies.

Had a good if caveated time, as always. It's a game of considerable strengths and conspicuous flaws; not something I'd suggest unreservedly, but depending on what a player enjoys most in their brawlers, the former may well offset the latter. Either a uniquely cinematic, finessed take on classic Technos skulduggery, or a treacle-slow, vacant-staged bore. Image

The aforementioned AI game and range of subtly varied strikes/grapples keep me entirely occupied, both for survival and showboatery... it's every bit as hardcore as the previous games, I'll claim that much. Cruel drubbings lurk a split-second's lapse of technique away, and with the customary lack of HP restores, mistakes will quickly add up. Bypassing enemies' guard (or goading them into a punishing counter) requires an aggressive yet deft touch, a fine complication to staying one step ahead of the trademark Technos Pincer Beatdown™.

Game speed will be intolerably slow for some, understandably so. Kind of affair that makes up-to-speed games feel miraculously smooth afterward. It's most certainly the one thing I'd fix given the chance. OTOH, the game's animations and timings are clearly designed around it, and it is at least consistent.

A full credit is definitely overlong, given the slow speed, near-total lack of stage hazards and not especially developed later-game enemies. An occasional revisit for me, not for any lack of fondess but rather the ponderous tempo and considerable runtime. Crank the speed and trim the last stage a bit, and I'd back this one with far fewer caveats! I dislike dwelling on "what coulda been" talk so I'll leave it there. :wink:
__SKYe wrote:It is indeed very little space, and I really wonder just how much more they could have put into it, if only they had more space.
I've long been of two minds about that - on one hand, I'm sure with the obvious talent and passion that went into DDA, some quality material might've ensued. OTOH though, with latter-day Technos's penchant for unskippables, I wonder if the small cart might've been a blessing in disguise. :lol: They certainly nailed the really important stuff, at least.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

BIL wrote:I've long been of two minds about that - on one hand, I'm sure with the obvious talent and passion that went into DDA, some quality material might've ensued. OTOH though, with latter-day Technos's penchant for unskippables, I wonder if the small cart might've been a blessing in disguise. :lol: They certainly nailed the really important stuff, at least.
True, and I was mostly thinking of more audio tracks, enemies, etc -- not more stages or padding. At least more freedom on these things, memory-wise.
Reading that interview, and even knowing that time constraints are always equaly (or more) important, I feel that with his love for the series, along with his desire to "redeem" himself from his previous efforts, might had made the game better or more polished at least.
Mind you, I have still to play it and I'm just saying this based on your posts and Muneki's thoughts and ideas from the interview -- he had several pretty cool ideas that might have made it into the final product if they had the time and cartridge space.

Of course, much like you say, they could just make it bloated instead, so we'll never know. Contraints do force people to be more creative, and some of the best works often result from this, so it really might have been for the better.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oh yeah, as far as presentation goes, a bit of extra polish would've been good. A few more frames here and there, perhaps - besides polishing up slightly under-animated actions like running and the whip slash, I wonder if they might've fit in Combatribes' Inescapable Face Smasher™ with room for the requisite panels. Though admittedly, they could've just as easily left it out because it's an ultra-grimy move not quite in line with DDA's more avowedly Jeet Kune Do aesthetic. Image

btw, forgot to post a couple favourites from last evening's Atrocity Exhibition. :lol: Knowing Technos' keen eye for pixel pathos, I'm guessing it's precisely because of his stonefaced demeanour that newcomer STEVE has perhaps the most rueful pain faces of the lot:

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"I DUNNO WHAT TO DO MAN, SHE JUST TOOK THE KIDS AND LEFT WAHHHH"

Image

"GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF STEVE, FOR GODS SAKE MAN"

I like how they used the added resolution to add a bit of body language, and other detail - on his tiptoes with his jacket flying up, poor guy's dignity is all in tatters. :mrgreen: See also Roper's PAIN HANDS, aka Invisible Air Piano of Great Suffering and Misfortune:

Image

No comment needed for this chap, whose name escapes me - but I always remember his rad backstory, he lost his boxing license cos his badass uppercut kept killing motherfuckers! :O Yo, make 'em wear a neck brace and crash helmet if you need to, but don't take away a man's livelihood! Now look what he's gotta do to keep food on the table!

Image

The "hapless flight" pose looks kinda Cho Aniki actually. Image Also reminds me of DDIIIFC's Chin and his deceptively useful diving headbutt!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Jonny2x4 »

BIL wrote:The game's director Muneki Ebinuma is a really interesting guy, who later served as planner for the superlative Double Dragon Advance - I recommend the interview with him here (think you may have translated it, Johnny? Sterling work).
Thanks. I did this translation back when my Japanese was still so-so, so Kommander-san had to verify my translation to check for errors. And even then, a few mistakes did slipped by us. For example, the unused character Steiner I've described as a character who wielded "a Beretta and Parker." I thought パーカー referred to a brand of firearms, but it's actually a hooded sweatshirt (a parka). Also, the unused/proto sprites for Billy and Marian at the end of the article were uploaded to the site in JPEG format for some reason. Here's a link to the original png file.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/hzk/kommander/ddastaff4.html

I also wished I had asked Kommander a few clarifications or follow-up questions, since he was still in touch with Ebinuma at the time.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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DD4 was a bit disappointing in comparison to DDA. It almost felt like a fangame. The odd thing is that has a very similar Burnov cutscene to the one in DDA and rehashes the train level.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Didn't know you were the translator Jonny, fantastic work, it was a great read. :wink:
BIL wrote:Image
The puckered lips, though. About to kiss the concrete. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Haven't played a lot this week, but progress through Alien Soldier is coming along.

Finally figured out the no hassle way to beat the blue fan of death on stage 11. Have also done away with the little blue bear molester, giant mutant butterfly, tumor in a dark tube, penis flower, robot moth, and the spider. It's getting better the further I'm getting into it,unlike the NTSC version of Headdy.

Speaking of that I got my hands on a ROM of Headdy that is the Japanese version with translated boss dialogue. The game is noticeably easier from the first encounter with Maruyama. I've wanted to get into that games depths for some time, but the difficulty once you get passed stage six? Yeah no thanks. Done that dance for our five times over the past six or so years and every time I move onto something else.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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gave the firemen a second play and ended up clearing it, but i also ended up using two continues. both of them on the final boss! couldn't figure out where to attack it and kept trying to (in futility) put its satellite flames out, then consequently ate a life while learning its multiple attack patterns. then, after defeating it, i put the controller down and started typing on my discord channel (i frequently pause to multitask, even on serious runs, so long as i'm not recording). next thing i know, i'm dead again. oops! didn't realize there was something to do after the percentage tallied up.

Image

;___; my poor ego, shattered. i wanted to be a super player. at least the number i got was amusing!

this game feels a bit sluggish to learn and a little more focused on stage layout memorization than satisfying & readable shooting. most of the hairy areas are because the game's viewport is too narrow, and you can't tell what is above or (more often, and more problematically) below you. dealing with the long rotation of the hose every time you end up turning feels kind of tactical, but also really throws me off. when you de-lock, you need only tap the d-pad in the proper location before re-locking to set that you will eventually turn to the proper direction. however, the sheer length of how long it takes ol' pete to turn his doddering behind to the right direction makes me second guess if i hit the right direction and will sometimes have me get myself into trouble with a (often unnecessary) correction. this can all get super hectic if you're dealing with an area with raised stuff you need to duck under, too, even with a (crucially necessary) remapped crouch.

a few enemies feel a little too beefy, too, and given their frequent visual similarity & tendency to be a tad bit off-screen, it's a little hard to judge how much water you're going to need to apply them before re-prioritizing targets. there's also the frequent dialogue you need to skip, etc. this game feels like it wants to have an arcade-like shooter and uninterrupted cinematic narrative and bends its knees a little under the weight of both. there should have definitely been an option to completely disable dialogue.

all that said, i really do like it a lot. it's quite good and something i'd likely recommend immediately before going into these caveats, not after. i think i'm mostly just frustrated that going for its highest rank is going to cause some anguish in learning before i can really get completely focused on the meat - to the point i might not even go for it. i went to skim bil's fireman of legend run after playing to get an understanding of the difference in time played, and his run is a little more than a whopping 15 minutes faster than mine. of particularly interesting note, there appears to be four bombs in the last stage - i only found 3. getting all of those lets you get rid of the really mean previous boss super quickly and also still get to the final boss with hyper water.

is there any kind of handy resource on the location of all "hostages" (i missed one, and am frankly baffled at how) and bombs? the audio cue for knowing all flames are gone is helpful, but it often takes me a few seconds of listening before i'm certain and is a frequent pause for hesitation - and even still, i apparently missed a flame or two on stage 3, somehow. maybe that was where the hostage i missed was...?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Haha, love how not only it rates you a "B-Class Firemen" and then rubs it in, calling you just "Normal". :lol:
kitten wrote:at least the number i got was amusing!
Some could imply that you did it on purpose. 8)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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i-i'm really a super player, honest! Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Was the term "power player" ever used outside of Scandinavia back then? When I was a kid all the other video game playing kids always wanted to be a "power player". We really need to revive that term.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

Came across this guy on Reddit who posted a 1 life clear of Ghouls 'n Ghost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzltMlJq544

I love seeing stuff like this. Really nice video with constant commentary. Checked his channel, and he has a lot of no-death runs, 1CCs, hard difficulty etc. goodness. You know, the stuff power players will appreciate.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

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Haha, you're really pushing for the power player thing. :lol:
Had never really heard the term before, at least not that I remember.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

kitten wrote:is there any kind of handy resource on the location of all "hostages" (i missed one, and am frankly baffled at how) and bombs? the audio cue for knowing all flames are gone is helpful, but it often takes me a few seconds of listening before i'm certain and is a frequent pause for hesitation - and even still, i apparently missed a flame or two on stage 3, somehow. maybe that was where the hostage i missed was...?
Not that I know of... but from your commentary, it sounds like you're rushing this a bit? It's a labyrinthine seek/destroy with a strong time-trialling aspect - you're not going to approach the best ranks if you haven't even seen the full game. Get accustomed to keeping your POW and snoop around for those last few victims, and you'll be in shape for the 100% in no time.

The last few rescues are fairly well-concealed, but there's absolutely no bullshit involved. It's all very decipherable if you pay attention to the map layout (and keep an eye out for any visible yet seemingly inaccessible areas - there's always a way in). I can't even remember how I found all those bombs, haha. Checking behind scenery is always a good idea.

The turning problems you mention sound like a technique issue, too; I had to fire the game back up to check. Other than not finding his turning cycle particularly long to begin with...* I don't think I ever hit "lock" until I'd gotten Pete visibly facing/firing in the direction I need. Maybe very quickly afterward, but gambling on nailing the right direction sounds like a bad idea. I seem to recall doing it when the coast is clear and I'm just hustling along to the next firefight, but never in do/die circumstances.

*This assuming you're letting off the long shot while turning. Turning while not firing (or using the floor shot) is way quicker. Those occasional setpieces where you're besieged from all sides by will o' wisps? Trying to shoot them all down with an unbroken stream immediately seemed like a losing game to me. I'd blast what I could, hit the deck whenever they got too close for comfort, then pop back up and resume firing.
Last edited by BIL on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Udderdude »

Anyone tried this Bay Route game? It kinda feels like discount Contra, despite being made by Sunsoft and Sega. You think with these two names, it'd be awsome, but it's just kinda meh. Also, holding up to jump higher. lol

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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Heard of it briefly - always loved the name, bad puns wheee! Image AC Super Contra uses that same jump mechanic, incidentally! Never was a fan of it myself. Fast Falling is cool though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ghegs »

Udderdude wrote:Anyone tried this Bay Route game? It kinda feels like discount Contra, despite being made by Sunsoft and Sega. You think with these two names, it'd be awsome, but it's just kinda meh. Also, holding up to jump higher. lol

Image
I actually own the PCB! Some years ago I tried making an effort to 1CCing it and got pretty far (maybe the last stage? I forget) before being distracted by something. Maybe I'll try getting back to it.

Not a great game, to be sure. But not completely intolerable, either.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

Udderdude wrote:Anyone tried this Bay Route game? It kinda feels like discount Contra, despite being made by Sunsoft and Sega. You think with these two names, it'd be awsome, but it's just kinda meh. Also, holding up to jump higher. lol

Image
I heard of it and was curious if it was related to Journey to Silius. From what I have seen, it seems to play differently, though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Jonny2x4 »

BrianC wrote:DD4 was a bit disappointing in comparison to DDA. It almost felt like a fangame. The odd thing is that has a very similar Burnov cutscene to the one in DDA and rehashes the train level.
It rehashes lots of content from other Technos games too, like the final building from FC Nekketsu Kouha (which has a maze layout), the building from Combatribes/GB Kunio and several areas from Kunio-tachi no Banka (like the the mansion with the trap door that leads to an underground dungeon).

DD4 felt like something that was made quickly during a lazy weekend. Like ASW remembered that Double Dragon was turning 30 last year and they wanted something to commemorate the milestone without actually going through the effort of making a completely new game. It might had been modeled after DD2FC, but it doesn't look like it went through the same love or care that the original FC games during development. It makes me wonder why ASW even bothered to buy all the Technos IPs if all they're doing are re-releases and minimum effort Famicom throwbacks.
Udderdude wrote:Anyone tried this Bay Route game? It kinda feels like discount Contra, despite being made by Sunsoft and Sega. You think with these two names, it'd be awsome, but it's just kinda meh. Also, holding up to jump higher. lol

Image
For some reason, that game always gets my attention, but then I forget that it exists shortly afterward. Same deal with Tough Turf.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Durandal »

Motherfuckin' Alien Soldier (MD). The story of a terrorist-leader cyborg birdman who got flung into space-time continuum by Navy SEALs and ended up fusing with the soul of a young boy who transformed into said cyborg birdman after (tl;dr) and now must set out on his quest for ??? through fucking up train stations with finesse that would make IRA shed a collective tear and murderizing an exotic assortment of bosses, post-haste.

Alien Soldier just has a tremendous amount of energy, and it's impossible not to get swept away by it. After the control test screen you immediately start off zipping your way through groups of enemies, while facing your first boss within the first twenty seconds of the game, all the while Runner AD2025 takes the Genesis soundchip for a complete spin. Not a minute later, and you will be facing a giant bipedal ant as your next boss, before moving on to a turtle samurai and a weird-ass thing with hyperactive eyes called Sniper Honeyviper while bombs are falling from the sky. The announcer is bloody awesome as well with his striking soundbites (READY? FIGHT! GOT IT! LET'S GO!). From both an audio-visual and gameplay standpoint, Alien Soldier does its tagline (VISUALSHOCK! AUDIOSHOCK! SPEEDSHOCK! NOW IS THE TIME TO 68000 ON FIRE!) full justice.

Though Alien Soldier is classified as a run 'n gun, it's very much unlike any run 'n gun out there. You have multiple Forces equipped with their own limited ammo supply, which slowly regenerate after they remain unselected for a certain period of time, and is something you'll more heavily rely on than the full ammo restocks by picking up ammo boxes of the same type of Force you have currently equipped, which you want to do because picking up ammo box also upgrades your maximum ammo capacity for the Force you have currently equipped. Avoiding damage is done via the Zero Teleport which zaps you from one end of the screen to the other and lets you pass through everything unharmed, or by performing the Counter Force which turns projectiles into health pickups or reflects them back to sender. The huge player sprite and the limited amount of screen space means there's not a whole lot of room to jump over things or move around in, so the most logical choice for the designer was to include the ceiling in the playing field as well, as you can shift your own point of gravity to walk on the ceiling (if there is one). Stages are short breaks where you're meant to refill your health from fallen enemies before facing another boss, of which there are many. You can take several hits before dying rather than going out in one hit, though not being at full health prevents you from doing the powerful Phoenix Force. Just getting used to the controls takes a long time because they're so unorthodox.

Basically, Alien Soldier features a larger emphasis on long-term planning and ammo management as opposed to only shooting everything until it dies and picking up the right weapons when you're given the opportunity. Because Forces only regenerate their ammo when they're not selected, you always want to select another Force the moment you don't have to use the other one. But standing still to regenerate ammo while nothing happens isn't really an option since a time limit is constantly ticking down, and standing still isn't all that fun when more efficient time/ammo managed playstyles exist. The Force you'll be using depends on the resistances of then next boss you will face, as some Forces are stronger against organic enemies while other are stronger against mechanical enemies. So if you end up messing up, you'll have the improvise with the future in mind. So you might end up not being able to use a Phoenix Force against a boss for dealing YUGE damage, and end up having to take it down the old-fashioned way. Some kind of planning is involved, which will affect your route throughout the game.

The weapon select wheel is made with this in mind, as it allows you to preview the ammo count of your Forces before you select them and cancel the ammo regeneration. While it may be annoying that switching weapons locks you into place, I think it's more or less a drawback from the limited amount of buttons on the Genesis, as the D-pad will be used for cycling between weapons, A brings up the weapon wheel, A and C lets you equip the currently selected weapon, while B lets you fire immediately with the selected weapon. One button Thunder Force-style weapon switching would have you cycle through weapons and select them immediately, unintentionally having you cancel the ammo regeneration for weapons you don't want to actually select. I suppose you could leave the D-pad for movement while the weapon wheel is active and use B/C to cycle left/right through the wheel, though I have to question the intuitiveness of such a setup. In any case, you're not expected to frantically switch between weapons under pressure at any point in the game, and you're often given enough free time during fights to switch your weapon. I'd say this is the best they could have done with the Genesis controller.

Most bosses have to be made with the limited ammo supply in mind, as trying to kill the boss while all four weapons are empty would suck as you cannot refill your weapons other than not using them, so the bosses themselves cannot be too long. Alien Soldier manages to hit that sweetspot of bosses going down in reasonable time with limited ammo (provided you know what you are doing), though your ammo management skills will be tested when the game decides to throw multiple bosses at you in a short span of time without ammo boxes to rely on.

Some bosses (like Silpheed Force, the moth and the plant before Back Stringer) also feel like they're there to be more of a drain on your resources than trying to kill you dead. As in, they're easy, but you might end up wasting more ammo than necessary in the process of killing them which in turn affects your options in the boss fights coming right after, who might not be as forgiving in their methods of murder. It might make some bosses feel underwhelming because they can barely damage you, though in the grander scheme of things I'd say they're a good thing for the pacing of the game, easing up on the difficulty at first glance but having noticeable consequences later on, and still leaving some room for improvement in terms of ammo-efficiency and speed (though Silpheed Force could at the very least actually move to your side of the screen instead of attacking when you're not even in reach), which is where the Phoenix Force swoops in.

The Phoenix Force is an augmented Zero Teleport which can only be activated on full health, and damages everything you pass through, insta-killing most standard enemies and dealing significant damage to bosses. However, to prevent players from constantly spamming the Phoenix Force, using it sacrifices a small bit of health to prevent you from using it immediately afterwards. That health can be regained during fights by using the Counter Force on incoming projectiles which turns them into health pickups. On SUPEREASY one small health pickup of HP is sacrificed on using the Phoenix Force, and on SUPERHARD two small pickups' worth is sacrificed. The implications here are obvious: not getting hit -> deal YUGE damage on bosses w/ Phoenix Force -> ammo is conserved -> counter force projectiles to be on full health again -> repeat

Not only does not taking damage prevent you from dying, but it allows you to lay the smack dab on the bosses' asses even harder. It also kills the bosses even faster, so it saves time as well and has them cycling through their attacks not as often. For this reason it makes sense that you're awarded with a speedkill score bonus depending on how long it took you to kill the boss. The stages themselves can also be sped through using the Zero Teleport, and a lot of the stages are neatly designed with this in mind. The stage after the first boss for example allows you to teleport through entire enemy formations at once, but when you get to the second boss intro the snowflies at the end will fire one/two bullets at you which you can counter into health so you can be at full health again after having used up some health in the process of Phoenix Forcing through the stage. The floating platforms in Act 3 are all one Zero Teleport distance away from eachother, and the vertical differences are made lenient enough when Zero Teleporting.

Having no choice but to use the Phoenix Force when you're at full health instead of being able to do a Zero Teleport when at full health because you wanted to save up the Phoenix Force later is a great thing, because it's the developer's way of saying of no, use it often, use it NOW. It's a volatile maneuver meant to encourage aggression, and should be immediately used so it can be used immediately again. Using it defensively as a means of escape despite having the opportunity is just a waste. I absolutely love it when the game encourages you through its mechanics to not take damage which then allows you to speedkill, like POW Mode in Shinobi. Not only are you fucking invincible, but you're Sonic the Hedgehog as well.

A peculiar feature of the Phoenix Force is that it deals damage per-frame, which you can use it combination with the limited scrolling speed of the camera to transform the Phoenix Force from a highly damaging move to a straight-up insta-kill. What happens is that the camera just can't keep up with your speed and kind of catches you on one side of the screen, causing your Phoenix Force to do a lot of damage in a static position as opposed to how it usually works where you just pass through and the damage is spread out over a straight line, so when the boss' weakspot remains on one position (usually as a result of the boss not being able to move beyond an invisible wall or the camera not being able to catch up) and the Phoenix Force does as well, the full damage potential is realized and the boss can die pretty much instantly. This can not be performed on all bosses as not all bosses hang around the edges of the screen, though in speedruns you can see how the first two bosses will die in a single Phoenix Force without being able to perform a single attack against you.

I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, as the Phoenix Force damage output being strongly variable depending on the boss' position on the screen and weakspot locations surely must have been discovered during playtesting. Though there are signs that they knew about it and designed some situations with this in mind. The very first boss you encounter can be Phoenix Force'd to death in one move when its head is right next to a box placed in the arena of the fight, boxes not being a common presence in boss fights, giving off the impression that you're dealing more damage because you're ramming the boss against another solid surface. The second boss starts off at the right side of the screen, allowing you to hover up in its face and Phoenix Force it into the imaginary wall the moment the fight starts. This allows you to deal with the initial bosses much faster and feels good to execute, though I can't shake the feeling that I'm abusing a glitch. It can be used to kill Xi-Tiger the moment the fight starts after liberally applying flames, turning the fight into a massive anti-climax, especially after that hype transformation cutscene. It feels less like an intended mechanic and more like an accident which the game wasn't quite built around. It feels incredibly satisfying to pull one off, don't get me wrong, but the opportunities to pull them off feel more coincidental than intended.

The Counter Force being bound to a double-tap input is also most likely a workaround of the limited amount of Genesis controller buttons, though it has some nasty side-effects. You perform a Counter Force by double-tapping the fire button, though tapping the fire button does make you spend ammo. For continuous fire weapons this isn't much of a problem, but for high ammo consumption weapons like the Lancer it very much is. You could switch your weapon before an enemy performs and attack that can be countered, but that does not answer the question for why Counter Forcing has to consume ammo. If the answer is that it should discourage spamming, then that's ridiculous because a lot of attacks can only be consistently countered without taking damage by repeatedly spamming Counter Force. Only a few attacks in the game need precise timing to be properly countered.

The bosses themselves are also very varied, not just in graphic design, but also in the design of the fights themselves. Most fights do introduce something new or have an unique arena in which the fight is set which plays a large part in the fights themselves. One boss will send crabs after you which lock you in place if you step on them, another boss takes place on a giant devoured moth caught in a spider-web being dragged down to the bottom of the screen by mini-spiders until it is completely gone, another boss takes place in complete darkness where the only way to see is to light up the place by firing your weapon, another boss has you fighting a wolfman gunman riding a giant cybernetic horse while avoiding incoming hurdles and his gunfire. It can't be said it ain't creative. Though a lot of these little mechanics and hazards aren't really built upon and are mostly boss-unique, they come in such large numbers to compensate and make each boss fight feel more unique as a result. The only mechanic which I do feel is greatly underutilized is the ability to walk on ceilings, which almost never sees any use during boss fights. Only in like four or five out of the twenty-five.

Seven Force kicks fucking ass. The sheer set-up and that alarms-blaring music does a lot to make this fight a memorable one, from the dramatic screen-flash transformations to the constantly shifting setpiece (going from duking it out in a cave to rolling it out in a cave to a mid-air fight to a fight in front of a temple to a fight underwater after the temple dramatically collapses as the camera slowly pans down to you and Sirene Force in the final face-off), Gunstar Heroes got nothin' on this. The only real weakpoint being Silpheed Force's inability to hit you if you just stick to the left. That, and there being only five phases instead of seven as the name implies. Treasure says that Alien Soldier isn't an unfinished game but merely one with large ambitions unrealized, but you can't fool me there. Definitely my favourite boss of the game, these kind of multiple-stage bosses are always cheating in that regard.

The final boss, Z-Leo, is one giant pushover. Most of it is sticking a Zero Force in his face which is his only weakness (Zero Force being a fallback attack when you're firing a weapon with no ammo left), and reflecting the fireballs my mashing Counter Force around his torso after each attack he performs. It's way too easy, aside from his awesome shoulder-cannon attack which is cycled through at complete random. It doesn't help that around the end of the second act the game loses the flow of progression between stages, and makes it feel like you're abruptly shifting between random stages *cough* cut content *cough*. Suddenly we go from a spider web to a space elevator, and from there to some random winter planet? It's hard to infer from the game who Z-Leo even is or what you are even fighting for. You see some kind of silhouette in the cutscene at the end of act 2 but I can't for the life of me figure out what it's supposed to represent. Xi-Tiger is similarly a pushover, and Epsilon 2 isn't that big of a deal either. I think the end bosses could have been longer to make them stand out more, preferably through more phases like with Seven Force.

The RNG in Alien Soldier is very rough to say the least. Boss attacks are picked at random rather than through cycled at random through a list until each attack has been picked and the list is refilled. This causes some issues when it comes to speedrunning (what the game is designed around) where the boss needs to perform a certain attack to be the most vulnerable for a Phoenix Force or just your regular weapons, making the issue of getting the fastest kills often a matter of luck. The most notable example is Z-Leo 'throw the platform in the air while shooting at you from beneath' attack which can be cycled through at at random, sometimes multiple times in a row. The problem is that you can't damage Z-Leo during this attack because you're thrown several hundred feet above him, making the attack a huge time-waster. Though it's random enough that it can be never performed in the first place, in my first Superhard 1lc, Z-Leo never even used the attack. It'd be better if the attack was triggered if Z-Leo was damaged beneath a certain health percentage. If you're seriously grading players on destruction time, then it's worth balancing attacks so they all take equal time to deal with.

That said, outside of choosing attacks, the RNG in Alien Soldier does see some interesting applications. For example, in the Antroid fight, the Antroid will flip backwards a random amount of times before making the big leap. Artemis Force will perform a wind-up animation for a random amount of times before leaping if you're hovering in the mid-air ready to perform a Phoenix Force when she is leaping, and the timing by which the first Act 2 boss leaps out of the water is also slightly random. Here the bosses try and fool you into going for the attack too soon or too late, which is where you're supposed to react in time properly rather than just memorize. Artemis Force on Superhard is also a good example for something else, where it can shoot either a straight but incredibly fast fireball at you which you have to counter in time, or a slightly less fast fireball with a tricky trajectory bound to curve overhead and and behind you if you are close enough, or miss you entirely when you're too far away, but then you can't counter it for health and move in with a Phoenix Force. RNG applied to less direct elements like attack telegraphing, trajectory and spread will see more of a focus on reflex than memorization, without giving the player the perception of being always screwed because of luck, because in this case it doesn't make attacks easier or harder because of luck.

Weapon balance-wise things are kind of jank, Flame/Flame/Lancer/Lancer is the way to really go with an optional Homing or Buster in place of a second Flame to make clearing out regular enemies a bit easier. Buster Force is your straightforward peashooter, but it becomes useless against practically every boss in the second half in the game. Buster Force is useful against stuff like snowflies, but doesn't do a lot of damage against bosses. Flame is great and can kill any meatbag well done. The damage feedback is intuitive enough that anyone can tell the difference when they're dealing graze damage or when they're dealing full damage by jamming the flames right into a boss' weakspot accompanied by strong damage flashes and a loud BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT. Homing seeks nearby targets and makes it easier to hit a boss, though damage isn't as great, and against large swarms of enemies it has the tendency to target the wrong enemy. Sword is more of a back-up weapon as its ammo consumption low and its damage output constant and reliable, but its ammo regeneration time is ridiculously slow. Lancer is your primary mecha boss killer and fires a straight but powerful beam which needs to be fired accurately so it's not entirely wasted. But since bosses die best against Flame/Lancer and both have solid performance within the regular stages, you probably want to stick to them. There's also the issue of upgrading max ammo capacity, which can be done by shooting an ammo box with your weapon so its pick-up automatically becomes identical to your currently equipped weapon (a brilliant time-saving feature, as opposed to waiting until it cycles to your current weapon) and then picking it up, but switching to another weapon does not upgrade the max ammo capacity, so you don't want to be exchanging weapons at all unless you have to.

There's two difficulties, SUPEREASY and SUPERHARD. Though despite what the names suggest, they're actually just Hard and Expert difficulty. You're going to have a hard time at first regardless of what difficulty you pick, the difficulty naming scheme is there to trick you into believing that SUPEREASY is as easy as it's going to get. Though there isn't that much of a major difference between the two, it almost feels disappointing when you do clear SUPEREASY and then tackle SUPERHARD directly afterwards. Compared to SUPEREASY, SUPERHARD sees some removed full health pick-ups, increased enemy numbers in stages, altered obstacle placement (with regards to mines), Phoenix Force sacrificing two small pickups worth of health rather than one (even though it doesn't really matter since most opportunities for countering things into health come in groups), some enemies have more attacks, and some bosses have new attacks as well.

The last one is particularly disappointing, as the only new attack I've seen in SUPERHARD is the additional fireball variant for Artemis Force which turns the fight from shaking hands to an actual test of reflexes. Other than that I've only noticed that Silpheed Force has a larger response window against your attacks, most bosses played out the same to me. Either I went too fast before they could even occur, or they weren't even there to begin with. While SUPERHARD does definitely tighten the screws more on some stages and I definitely prefer it as the must-play difficulty, compared to SUPEREASY it's just not the step up I expected.

However, when everything is pieced together, and you get a proper run going, it is a beauty to behold and to perform. Not many games allow you to step up hyper-aggressively and take the fight to the boss with every facet of the gameplay system encouraging you to do so, instead of being a passive bitch who can only poke after the boss is recovering. Unique controls, unique gameplay and a unique set-up make for a highly unique game. Goddamn, Alien Soldier is fun.
Xyga wrote:
chum wrote:the thing is that we actually go way back and have known each other on multiple websites, first clashing in a Naruto forum.
Liar. I've known you only from latexmachomen.com and pantysniffers.org forums.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I wondered if you might do an Alien Soldier writeup sometime - I figured you must've been playing it after that very useful tip on Fixed vs Free ammo consumption. :smile:
Durandal wrote:The weapon select wheel is made with this in mind, as it allows you to preview the ammo count of your Forces before you select them and cancel the ammo regeneration.
Despite knowing about the recharge conditions, I'd not considered the utility of previewing a weapon's remaining ammo before activating it - good point.

I'm still willing to believe the unusually demanding cycling was deliberate besides, given how well it suits the atypically deliberate handling (big sprite and slight inertia on running), as well as the distinctive ebb/flow of boss duels. Basically, don't try switching when the boss is about to pounce; either wait for a window of opportunity, or better yet create one, then sort your gear out.
Some bosses (like Silpheed Force, the moth and the plant before Back Stringer) also feel like they're there to be more of a drain on your resources than trying to kill you dead.
Both the random worm and the moth (Bugmax) eventually seemed more like HP restorers to me - albeit not freebies, with both quite capable of killing an inexperienced and/or ailing player. If you know how to trigger Bugmax's larvae bombardment (basically loiter beneath him - he won't use his blinding mist or harpoon attacks), you'll be raking in the Phoenixes in no time and can kill him with barely a shot fired.

EDIT: aww crap, by "moth" I assumed you meant Bugmax. I always assume Viblack (aka Back Stringer's lunch) is a fly, with the whole spider/fly motif.

Viblack is really just Back Stringer's opening act, imo. IIRC, the ranking screen even lists them in the same slot. I love his little scene for what it is - it's certainly a jolting bit of cinema - and he and his support worms+flies can actually throw out some interesting dilemmas, if they survive a while. His double vulcan is rad to look at too, and also a good source of HP gems if counterforced.

I also like how, as with Deepstrider (shark) and Sharpsteel (lobster), he actively punishes teleporting, forcing the player to manually dodge and counter incoming threats. Ultimately though it's all for naught - a seasoned player isn't gonna let him or his zako survive more than a few seconds of pointblank BURNER. His role is to be speedkilled in spectacular fashion, then devoured even more spectacularly, before his corpse is donated to the Back Stringer fight.

For Sunset Sting, I think they wanted the player to capitalise on his seed pods - he uses them pretty frequently, they guarantee large gems, and with good timing you can basically chain-Phoenix his face off. Not the deadliest boss, as you say, but I really like how he plays out.
This allows you to deal with the initial bosses much faster and feels good to execute, though I can't shake the feeling that I'm abusing a glitch. It can be used to kill Xi-Tiger the moment the fight starts after liberally applying flames, turning the fight into a massive anti-climax, especially after that hype transformation cutscene. It feels less like an intended mechanic and more like an accident which the game wasn't quite built around. It feels incredibly satisfying to pull one off, don't get me wrong, but the opportunities to pull them off feel more coincidental than intended.
It's a tricky one, that. I have to believe it was noticed during development/playtesting that Phoenix burns in place at screen edges, rather than deactivating as it does against solid walls. This game is put together pretty tight, and it's not short of places to try this out. But it's such an idiosyncratic maneuver, it seems hard to imagine the designers going "and if you can pin 'em against an empty screen edge (but NOT a wall), hoo boy, then it's on!"

Maybe it was a happy accident ala DMC1's juggling. As you say, it's pretty goddamn satisfying regardless. I like to think of the Xi-Tiger execution as less anticlimax, more a] reward for vanquishing his battery of support enemies unscathed, with plenty of ammo to spare, and b] a narratively-justified squashing. He's an unstable usurper who tried and failed to eliminate his ailing boss (strike 1), nonchalantly murdered the protagonist's girlfriend in the process (strike 2), before fleeing like a pussy from the resulting explosion of vengeful rage (strike 3, oh shit son, now you're gonna die!). Being a hardened TERARIST he's not gonna go down without flashing his fangs, but it's all too late as a murderous Fou finally corners him atop that plane and burns a hole through his chest before roasting him to death with BURNER.

Considering Act 1 is literally the protagonist rushing through a busy airport to catch a flight, with all manner of obstacles in his path including a small army of terrorists and a friggin security scanner, a slightly bathetic finish before moving onto more serious affairs plays great imo. :lol:
The Counter Force being bound to a double-tap input is also most likely a workaround of the limited amount of Genesis controller buttons, though it has some nasty side-effects. You perform a Counter Force by double-tapping the fire button, though tapping the fire button does make you spend ammo. For continuous fire weapons this isn't much of a problem, but for high ammo consumption weapons like the Lancer it very much is.
I've always taken that as a bit of balance-minded mean-spiritedness - if you want unfettered countering ability, you'll need to sacrifice your more precious offensive capabilities (by either switching to something cheap n' cheerful like Buster, or eating the loss of heavy weapon ammo). Not graceful, but then neither is the move itself really.
another boss has you fighting a wolfman gunman riding a giant cybernetic horse while avoiding incoming hurdles and his gunfire.
WolfGunBlood & GAROPA are an audiovisual spectacle for the ages, and the Double Phoenix/BURNER speedkill is pure performance (the timing to Phoenix through Wolf's attack is tighter than it looks - jump the gun and you'll get no gems for the followup, which feels anti-climactic... too late and you're getting shot in the face repeatedly, total humiliation!). But the fight itself is among the few I'd change up a little. I think it'd have been cooler if his shooting and the barricades coincided, with mild telegraphing of the latter (the relevant half of the BG flashing red when they're inbound, say... make 'em laser fences, or something else teleportable through). Both hazards feel a bit too easy and safe in isolation, considering how late in the game this occurs.

But again, taking him down with maximum braggadocio is a literal "stare down the barrel of a gun" feat, so it's NBD. That echoing *tchankk" sound as he prepares to fire, what a perfect accent to a moment of pure adrenaline.

For both the player and designers, I get the feeling Act IV in general is where the coaster hits the top of the hill and gravity ensues. It's good stuff, for sure...asteroid rush is a simple, relentless dodging sequence with some compulsively fun gambling attached; Destroyer Proto has a nice combo of misdirecting telegraphs and barging bulk, he'll nick your Phoenix if you're not sharp (also best sound effect ever on the bullet spew, woopwoopwoopwoopwoop!); CATMANS is my favourite shooting setpiece (pretty sure they spawn as fast as you can kill 'em; I'm working on a run that reaches them with full Ranger, the result is truly Bacchanalian carnage), with good complication from from RAWKETS; and Shield Viper, like Destroyer Proto, combines erratic lunging and imposing reach for a deceptively intense exchange.

Missiray ain't much but I do love jamming in the Lancer counter I figured out all by myself (woop woop), and that's some nice manual dodging in its second phase. Z-Leo's a bit of a spectacle boss, but the sheer terror of getting an anti-aircraft laser battery up my ass keeps me motivated. Like you, my first few 1LCs (and the one I uploaded) went without even one of them... yet I've had later, better runs where he does 'em relentlessly. Oh well. I really like dodging the attack, with the nervy combo of manual and teleport evasion; just feels like I'm being punished to even encounter it. I should say I don't take this game's scoring (numeric or speedrun) very seriously, haha. No more seriously than Contra Spirits, for example. All about the tasteful showboating (by "tasteful" I mean "kill every motherfucker in your way, none of that zippedy do-dah stuff" Image).
It doesn't help that around the end of the second act the game loses the flow of progression between stages, and makes it feel like you're abruptly shifting between random stages *cough* cut content *cough*. Suddenly we go from a spider web to a space elevator, and from there to some random winter planet?
I just assumed the orbital elevator was in the same facility as the rest of Act 2, haha. Epsilon is making his way up but then VIBLACK kidnaps him, only to crash and get his face eaten like a big dummy, and Epsilon has to extricate himself from a risky scenario involving a giant fucken spider before resuming his trek. (maybe Epsilon 1 knew shit was about to go down, hence being on that orbital elevator?) Strictly headcanon, but the game's flow seemed to be

Act 1: settle score with Xi-Tiger
Act 2: invade SCARLET's engineering facility, destroy Epsilon 1 to end the TERARIST threat - meanwhile Shadowy Patron™ decides enough's enough...
Act 3: fuck me that was close, here's a handy place to set down - oh crumbs, it's enemy turf and they've sent their #1 killer, who is none other than
Spoiler
!
Act 4: well that was depressing, time to invade their base and fuck up their couch good and proper.

As for the ending... some time travel fuckery to reverse the rather cataclysmic events of before? The intro does mention a "time stream." Hmm. Oh well. It's Act 1 and its wonderful airport hassle I really care about, otherwise I'm chalking it up to DBZ Bullshit™.

I don't think the environmental progression suffers at all - home planet -> blast off to distant moon -> invade and destroy source of TERARISTS is convincing enough for me, actually I think it enhances AS's innately obsessive, near-wordless intensity - but some small epilogue would've certainly been nice.

OTOH, I am REALLY glad this game didn't suffer Silhouette Mirage or Guardian Heroes' cutscene stoppages; the thought breaks my heart, and from reading this dev commentary, I don't think it's impossible he would've attempted similar given the chance. Heart in the right place, I've no doubt, but you can't strong-arm the player like SM and GH do.
Hideyuki Suganami wrote:I want to show the process of how Epsilon 2 grows into and becomes the Alien Soldier.
My headcanon is some AKIRA shit, you know, ambiguously evil school for gifted youngsters. Image
Hideyuki Suganami wrote:The youthful love between Kaede and Fou (Epsilon 2’s name when he was in human form)
Don't worry Suganami-san, I skullfuck the cowardly murderer XI-TIGER with maximum righteous hatred every time. Image That was a cracking line in the intro, "the boy, beside himself with rage..." Image Job done! As for that stuff later on, yeah that was fucked, but I think the sunset makes a fine wordless epitaph! ;-;7
Weapon balance-wise things are kind of jank, Flame/Flame/Lancer/Lancer is the way to really go with an optional Homing or Buster in place of a second Flame to make clearing out regular enemies a bit easier. Buster Force is your straightforward peashooter, but it becomes useless against practically every boss in the second half in the game. Buster Force is useful against stuff like snowflies, but doesn't do a lot of damage against bosses.
I still think Buster's a pretty decent stopgap weapon for learners, even in Acts 3+4. It won't take down any of their bosses cleanly, true, but it'll at least let a beginner who might otherwise be on flat-out empty do some perceptable damage, while waiting on the bigger guns to recharge. Once they know the game's layout better (including a certain massive "pack two full Lancers or you're gonna get held up" expense in Act 3), they'll gradually rely on it less. That's how it was for me anyway.
Last edited by BIL on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by kitten »

BIL wrote:Not that I know of... but from your commentary, it sounds like you're rushing this a bit? It's a labyrinthine seek/destroy with a strong time-trialling aspect - you're not going to approach the best ranks if you haven't even seen the full game. Get accustomed to keeping your POW and snoop around for those last few victims, and you'll be in shape for the 100% in no time.
i have a pretty bad memory (esp. short term), so sticking a timer on a game with lightly non-linear elements that extends into your final ranking kind of gets me. you're probably right that i'm rushing, mind you.
The turning problems you mention sound like a technique issue, too; I had to fire the game back up to check. Other than not finding his turning cycle particularly long to begin with...* I don't think I ever hit "lock" until I'd gotten Pete visibly facing/firing in the direction I need. Maybe very quickly afterward, but gambling on nailing the right direction sounds like a bad idea. I seem to recall doing it when the coast is clear and I'm just hustling along to the next firefight, but never in do/die circumstances.
were you aware of the locking quirk before i brought it up? it's pretty interesting, tbh. allows you to commit to turning the shot around while walking in the opposite direction, so long as you nail the input. comes with the lack of certainty you absolutely nailed the direction you want, though, as already mentioned.

i didn't realize you turned faster with the water off! this seems obvious, in retrospect. this might solve my issue - maybe that and a combination of getting more confident about my inputs with the previous quirk, too. not sure if i'll get fully used to the limited viewport, but i imagine it will at least be mitigated by getting more used to room layouts.

btw! there's an italian guide up on gamefaqs that seems to be the only thorough walkthrough for the game online. can't read a lick of it, but the guy did post over in the forum section a full map, complete with icons for where each bomb and hostage are.
Spoiler
Image
pretty handy!

i'm really curious what the exact qualifications for ranking are, at the end. i'm guessing i lost 1% because i missed a tiny bit on stage 3, and then the other 30% was... the two credits? was i even penalized at all for the time?
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Love the use of BOMBA in that guide. Shmuppin as fuck. :cool:
kitten wrote:i have a pretty bad memory (esp. short term), so sticking a timer on a game with lightly non-linear elements that extends into your final ranking kind of gets me. you're probably right that i'm rushing, mind you.
I should've also said, TFM was basically my summer gaming project that year - I think the run I uploaded was the product of a solid week, following the previous week's casual Normal clearing. :smile: Certainly wasn't as nerve-wracking or demoralising as some other things I've done, or seen others do - but it definitely took some concentrated effort, and I was definitely glad to have nailed it.

Even then I was kinda caning it tbh, but eh. Was enjoying myself. :wink:

(Odd memory - the final boss BGM sounds a lot like Aerosmith's "Eat The Rich" - I always had to go "BRAIN STFU, NOW'S NOT THE TIME FOR VGM TRIVIA" as the rather brisk final onslaught began! although the game and song share the release year of 1994, so who knows... maybe it's referencing Curtis Mayfield's "Freddy's Dead," haha. Whatever the case, someone at Human seems to have been quite the riffmonger! Pretty nice soundtrack overall, surprisingly hard rock/metal-oriented)
were you aware of the locking quirk before i brought it up? it's pretty interesting, tbh. allows you to commit to turning the shot around while walking in the opposite direction, so long as you nail the input. comes with the lack of certainty you absolutely nailed the direction you want, though, as already mentioned.
I think I knew of it, looking back at my replay and from my brief revisit. But both also reminded me about using short, sharp presses of the dpad. Aim, lock and fire. This is how I approach any similar system, Shin & Neo Contras' direction locking for example. Rolling the pad is comfier, but I want to minimise any possibility of error, so I'll really jab my thumb in until I know it's sorted before clamping down the index lock and letting rip. Some things you just can't take chances with. :mrgreen:

So in TFM's case, with the long shot slowing your rotation significantly, I make a point of releasing fire while setting up the next strafe. This is particularly vital for maintaining POW, since tiny nips from zako that slip past the slowly-turning stream become potential run-killers.

This is going out on a limb, but I seem to recall the floor shot's fast rotation being very useful when you're surrounded by stuff you can't duck. Floor shot also kills stuff quicker, with the obvious caveat that you need to be closer-in, so dump it onto inert "wall-type" fires.

Note the importance of crawling btw. Think you mentioned relocating it to a shoulder button? Can't recall my exact layout offhand, but that's what I did, and it's vastly superior to the default. Keep lock under one index and crawl under the other. Locking one direction, crawling in another and throwing grenades is supremely useful on a couple bosses, IIRC the second and fourth. And as mentioned in my previous post, sometimes you're better off just hitting the deck - occasionally at very short notice. Wisp rushes, heatwaves and backdrafts are the obvious cases, but st2's catwalks are another - the erupting "rockets" from beneath can't hit you if you're prone (obviously the nearby flames can).

Note also Danny. He'll instakill just about anything that gets near you, typically roving mechs. An easy primer is to crawl under st5's office drones - Danny will massacre the lot without hesitation (stay down until their explosions disperse though; as with most if not all, they're deadly in their own right). With ground-based mechs, get close enough for them to give chase then retreat and he'll (with remarkable consistency) bring the axe down on 'em. He doesn't even need to swing the axe, strictly speaking - mere contact with his sprite will deal brutal damage.
i didn't realize you turned faster with the water off! this seems obvious, in retrospect. this might solve my issue - maybe that and a combination of getting more confident about my inputs with the previous quirk, too. not sure if i'll get fully used to the limited viewport, but i imagine it will at least be mitigated by getting more used to room layouts.
The tight camera was my main criticism, and there's one particular "trouble room" that really pushes my tolerance to the limit (st5's green mech-infested patio... which is also full of collapsing floors and large fires, meaning the usual "hightail outta there, also DANNY PLS HALP" approach won't always work).

I do think the game is remarkably cognisant of its POV, though. Stuff is generally pretty slow-moving, everything is audio-cued well in advance (with the singularly deadly mechs having their own sound), and the simplistic action almost feels designed to complement the claustrophobic viewpoint. Generally, "back up while shooting," occasionally "sprinting retreat with Danny as rear guard" is all you need to do. It probably wouldn't support a straight Ikari-esque, but it creates a unique and mostly-legitimate tension here.

Believe me, as noted in my writeup, screen edge-riding make my goddamn teeth hurt, so I don't grant this lightly. :lol: As said, st5's patio was the worst by far that I recall - the only one where I was really compelled to devise a specific strategy, and execute it to a T. Basically "go in, bait the first mech, then run like hell as Danny clobbers it, but not so far you go down a pit or into a fire." Followed by a cautious proceeding downward, and occasional reprises of same. No surprise this involved the POV's lower edge, the worst offender of the lot. Thankfully it's far more exception than rule. For the most part, ad-hoc cautious advance kept things moving along briskly enough.
i'm really curious what the exact qualifications for ranking are, at the end. i'm guessing i lost 1% because i missed a tiny bit on stage 3, and then the other 30% was... the two credits? was i even penalized at all for the time?
I don't think I ever quite figured it out, despite searching, other than the general criteria listed in my replay (all rescued, 100% fire rate, ~45min clear time + Expert difficulty). Expert lacks continues altogether, so I guess they might take a particularly large bite out of your score? Dunno really.
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Stevens
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Stevens »

I enjoyed both walls of text. Thank you both.

I tried switching to flame x 2/lancer x 2 but still found it a bit unwieldy. Perhaps when I have more experience.
You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Sorry for the wallage, there's a lot to discuss. :wink:

FFLL can certainly work in a conventional run (meaning killing enemies at leisure, as opposed to speedrunning's quasi-pacifism). But like any weapon setup, it'll have ramifications on your play that need working around. I imagine you'd need a relatively light trigger finger, and a good route of ammo recharges. As said, I'm more a proponent of Buster at starter level... even moving towards FFLL myself now, I'd suggest packing one until the game's basic layout starts to become apparent (when to upgrade a weapon, when to swap one out, when to dump a full clip into a boss's face cos there's a recharge right after, and so on).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Udderdude »

Ghegs wrote:
Udderdude wrote:Anyone tried this Bay Route game? It kinda feels like discount Contra, despite being made by Sunsoft and Sega. You think with these two names, it'd be awsome, but it's just kinda meh. Also, holding up to jump higher. lol

Image
I actually own the PCB! Some years ago I tried making an effort to 1CCing it and got pretty far (maybe the last stage? I forget) before being distracted by something. Maybe I'll try getting back to it.

Not a great game, to be sure. But not completely intolerable, either.
Wouldn't say it's bad at all, just nothing that stands out or goes above it's obvious inspiration.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

BIL wrote:I remember Randorama (pretty sure it was Rando) mentioning how utterly cruel Rolling Thunder 2 (AC) could be with ammo and time, so not entirely surprised to hear the original is quite the bitch too.

The name's not as popularly synonymous with brutal challenge as say Makaimura, but RT's arcade and console entries alike seem pretty uniformly mean. Even brazen clone Dead Fox upholds the tradition.
I believe that GameOverDude uploaded a full 1LC on youtube many moons ago (nickname: JohnnyMartini?). The last stage is more or less impossible unless you enter some key doors and let enemies move off-screen; you will simply not have enough ammo to kill every enemy otherwise. I remember clearing this game ONCE in the arcade, in 1995 or 1996 (i.e. years after its release), and only when someone showed me this trick. I cleared it again, ONCE, when I saw the videos on youtube, as I simply forgot on how to handle the finale stage, and couldn't figure it out by myself (duh!).

The first chapter is similarly brutal but for different reasons. I have no idea how one can finish the 150 seconds (per stage) version on one life, as stages 8 and 10 (i.e. 2-3 and 2-5) require pixel-perfect moves and a few tricks to be finished within the allotted time.

I think that both AC versions are actually pretty doable with some practice (I always have been a dedicated, not skilled player!), but these two are games that require you to think a bit creatively, so to speak.

EDIT:

Do we have a thread for scrolling beat'em ups? Lately, it is the only genre that does not make me scream out of rage (at my near-dead reflexes, you know old age...).
I need old chaps to talk about Night Slashers and Double Dragon II with (and if this last stranded preposition is grammatical, I declare myself a winner at this hour of the night!).
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Randorama wrote:Do we have a thread for scrolling beat'em ups? Lately, it is the only genre that does not make me scream out of rage (at my near-dead reflexes, you know old age...).
I need old chaps to talk about Night Slashers and Double Dragon II with (and if this last stranded preposition is grammatical, I declare myself a winner at this hour of the night!).
There have been a few over the years - this one is the most recent and largest I can recall. Failing that (or starting a new one), beltscrollers are fine here too, as are topdowns and isometrics. :smile:

EDIT: haha, I'd forgotten that thread's contents. Some quality back/forth, plus a referral from there to here, and a glimpse of authentic Polski beltscrolling violence via FRANKO: THE CRAZY REVENGE (ta Obi!)
Spoiler
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Man, not even Technos got quite that rugged. Homey's teeth are flying all over the place. :shock: In-game, heads visibly bust open on concrete, beaten foes stay where they fall, and blood streaks the street. Suddenly I'm kinda valuing TJC's sense of restraint! :o Despite all the Final Fight asset rips it seems to take more after Technos, with the brutal ground pounds. The constant loadtimes render it near-unwatchable even for comic relief, sadly, but I do recommend seeing (and hearing) this exchange. That high-pitched KO scream. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

Oh well...

I have come to the conclusion that Double Dragon II is a much more varied game than the first chapter (OK, OK, advance is much better, but it was published 16 years afterwards). It makes sense to actually use the full move set, rather than only the elbow attack. What is the consensus, 30 years onwards?
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
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