Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[mycophobia]

I know about the down+B trick, I actually tried once to copy this strategy but it didn't go so well. My best results thus far have come from hopping off the far right pillar and sometimes destroying the fireballs when going for the hit. My biggest problem is running into Jaquio himself.

[Sumez]

The strategy in the video is much, much harder to pull off than it looks. Don't even try to do it as you're learning. Watch his patterns and learn the safest timings to get hits in.
Personally I'm almost completely unable to use the down+B trick, especially on Jaquio - I can maybe get one single extra hit in occasionally at best.

[Immryr]

don't do anything that might make you get hit by jaquio himself. iirc hitting jaquio hurts 4x as much as hitting his fireballs, this is why the strategy of hitting jaquio only when he's moving away from you is generally pretty safe, if a little slow.

[Sumez]

However, getting hit by a fireball will most likely prevent it from despawning at the bottom of the screen, which quickly gets ridiculously dangerous if you don't know how to get rid of it fast, like the guy in that video does.

[Obscura]

The "off the wall" method in this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysMoAxstpfE) was the method I always used as a kid, and I still think it's the easiest.

[FinalBaton]

I had a lil Jacquio guide on page 173 so I'll republish it here while adding some stuff.

My recorded fight with him : https://youtu.be/6sDYTy_mV2o?t=37m34s

Basically : stay on the ground, running at counter-current from him, under his fire to evade it(NEVER jump when dodging his fire. It'll make the fireballs start homing you and have multiple pairs of fireball hang on screen. My technique described here ensures that all fireball pairs go offscreen after they are initially launched, which is essential), until a safe opportunity arises to land a hit. Only THEN should you go on the pillars.




Regarding those safe opportunities to hit :


First rule : NEVER get hit by him(his body I mean). He does way more damage that way, than what his fireballs inflict.


Hitting him when he's moving away from you (instead of towards you) is best. I suggest to mainly wait for that opportunity to arise. Wait for an opportunity where, in between fireball shots, you can quickly go on a nearby pillar and launch yourself towards him and strike him as he's moving away from you, all this between 2 fireball shots :


Note that you can also dodge between his fireballs after your hit if time-space is too tight :

Spoiler

You can also hit him safely when he's moving towards you but only when you catch him near the corners (meaning that during the early part of your forward jump motion, Jacquio is moving away from you before changing direction. This ensures you won't bump into him). For this to work you need to time it as such : launch forward a bit early, then go neutral before the max height of your jump and slash him as you start falling down(this last part is important, it ensures that you'll reach the ground quickly enough to have time to outrun the next set of fireballs). This method is harder though and you should prioritize the method above.


Don't go for a pure neutral jump attack (waiting for him on a pillar and neutral jump and attack as he's moving towards you). He will clip you with his body each and every time you do this.



The key is patience. You gotta wait for these safe hit opportunities to arise. Sometimes, up to 10 seconds will pass between them occuring(a couple circumstances need to lineup : as you outrun a set of fireballs, Jacquio needs to be moving away from you, be still pretty far from the wall he's going toward, and you need to be close to a pillar that you can use). Or even a bit more. But that's okay. There's plenty of time to dispatch him with nothing but safe hits.
This strategy provides very consistant results, with it I defeat Jacquio on the first try EVERY SINGLE TIME. I get hit between 1 and 4 times (and sometimes none!), but it's no big deal since fireballs do 1 bar of damage. No sweat!

ROUNDUP : "what skill do I need to get down first?" I say the one in the top gif. Learn how to dodge the fireballs consistently, running alongside the ground. then when you got this down, practice the offense.

NINJA GRANDMASTER RULE #2 : IN THE HEART OF THE STORM, EXHIBIT LEGENDARY CALM

[mycophobia]

I caved and did some savestate practice for Jaquio. Figured out a reasonably consistent strategy, so 1CC should be coming soon. Kinda disappointed I turned probably 5-10 more full ~20 minute runs into like 10 minutes of savestating to nail it down but I was just so eager to solve the puzzle. The pattern is just so tantalizingly simple.

e: and yep, got through Jaquio on a full run just now. Bit the dust on the alien monster thingy though, but I got close. He seems pretty easy.

[__SKYe]

Good job. Once you nail Jaquio's pattern down it's all about keeping your cool in future runs.

e: and yep, got through Jaquio on a full run just now. Bit the dust on the alien monster thingy though, but I got close. He seems pretty easy.

Very simple, yes, but also alarmingly easy to lose against, if you have the misfortune to get hit by the projectiles multiple times (can happen when he throws a flurry of them).
It's basically quickly destroying the head & tail, and then carefully jump slashing the core, while keeping an eye out for the projectiles that fall in your direction.
This is where the Slash+B comes in hand, since he's a static target (if you're willing to use it).

You're pretty much there, though, so keep at it.

Also BIL, unless it was my PC acting up, why did you not keep the pink-shades avatar?

[mycophobia]

And got it! 1CC baby!

Will do it again on stream some time so I can get a recording, but I'll definitely be going for the no death too. Died once against the demon monster but I came back and got to flame the skull to death, then finished the rest off reaaaallllly carefully.

[BIL]

Welcome aboard! Knew it was only a matter of time with your previous achievements.

Good job. Once you nail Jaquio's pattern down it's all about keeping your cool in future runs.

e: and yep, got through Jaquio on a full run just now. Bit the dust on the alien monster thingy though, but I got close. He seems pretty easy.

Very simple, yes, but also alarmingly easy to lose against, if you have the misfortune to get hit by the projectiles multiple times (can happen when he throws a flurry of them).
It's basically quickly destroying the head & tail, and then carefully jump slashing the core, while keeping an eye out for the projectiles that fall in your direction.
This is where the Slash+B comes in hand, since he's a static target (if you're willing to use it).

It's a minor dream hack of mine to spruce up the NG1 rush slightly, as follows:

Masked Devil: swap him out for a fast, agile yet devastatingly powerful "uber-zako" - think the green katanas' speed and aggression with the boxers' brutal bulldogging attack and the chakram Cho Aniki dudes' near-unstoppable projectile. Can only knock him back, orb is still the target. I want an approximation of this, basically:



Jaqiuo: a model of perfect simplicity as it is. I'd only add a pair of regenerating pacers (ala the common edge guarder) to make the ground feel a bit less of a total refuge. Don't even need to pursue, just get in the way.

Jashin: I kinda want pits ala Dracula XX's last boss... but it'd probably be too much, with the random mortar attack. Maybe if you could grip the sides in case you got knocked in? An occasional, deadly aimed blast from the core would make this less of a formality. NGII's second rush boss is basically this, with a much rapider mortar to boot! Ironically, the last of the three is basically Jashin Again, and nowhere as tricky as the prior two.

Also BIL, unless it was my PC acting up, why did you not keep the pink-shades avatar?

Still got it, don't worry, but it was more of an early prototype.

[__SKYe]

Congrats and welcome to the Task Force™.

Jashin can really be a pain -- on my 1LC attempt iirc, I lost to him after leaving him with 1HP left, so I know.

EDIT:

Masked Devil: swap him out for a fast, agile yet devastatingly powerful "uber-zako" - think the green katanas' speed and aggression with the boxers' brutal bulldogging attack and the chakram Cho Aniki dudes' near-unstoppable projectile. Can only knock him back, orb is still the target. I want an approximation of this, basically:

Yeah, this is by far the most disappointing of the final fights, especially considering that the enemy is your father, not to mention a ninja (which should always have speed atthe very least).

Jashin: I kinda want pits ala Dracula XX's last boss... but it'd probably be too much, with the random mortar attack. Maybe if you could grip the sides in case you got knocked in? An occasional, deadly aimed blast from the core would make this less of a formality. NGII's second rush boss is basically this, with a much rapider mortar to boot! Ironically, the last of the three is basically Jashin Again, and nowhere as tricky as the prior two.

They definitely could have done/put something on the left side of the screen, since all the fighting is on the right side. Although he can be deadly, I still think he's too simple for a final boss, given the quality of the fight just before. A core laser blast or an occasional energy blast (ie. A spherical energy blast/shield, growing in radius, forcing you to interrupt your assault for a bit) would probably work nicely. Perhaps a crumbling floor like in DD2, pushing you to be quick and to not get hit and thrown backwards would also help?

[BIL]

Now that I think more about it, all three bosses lacking insta-kills (or even particularly fast kills, if you factor in the new lifebar you receive for each) is something I value about the rush - so I'd leave the floor intact for Jashin. Just give him a second, directly-targeted attack on a regular schedule - something that prevents the player from focusing 100% on the mortars, and that makes camping in the core's vicinity dangerous. NGII's penultimate boss, basically...

...although I've just remembered, NGII's core blasts aren't actually aimed. They're just certain to hit you if you're in sword range when they launch. A targeted attack to drive you out of your current position would be better. The big issue I have with Jashin is, it's just too comfy to sit in place and occasionally dodge an unlucky mortar. At the end of my NG1 no-miss I deliberately let him fire off a few salvos once he's at 1HP, just to rub it in a little.

[WelshMegalodon]

Six days ago I declared Jaquio impossible and gave up on the idea of joining the task force.

Two minutes ago I fired up my Masked Devil savestate on a whim to find Mr. Demon King going down on my third attempt.

Almost there.

I know about the down+B trick, I actually tried once to copy this strategy but it didn't go so well.

All you have to do is put the controller under your leg.

EDIT:

Spoiler

Beat Jashin.

You guys are fucking insane.

[Marc]

SNES version any good, or too many changes?

[soprano1]

SNES version any good, or too many changes?

The trilogy? I recall BIL saying it's not very good.

[Stevens]

SNES version any good, or too many changes?

Tried it on the SNES mini, was all excited until I heard the music.

Fucking with the music alone is reason enough to not play it.

Congrats on the clear mycophobia:D! You have joined an elite group, one of which I am not a part of, but may try to join one day.

[BIL]

SNES version any good, or too many changes?

The games actually play quite well - feels like emulation or at least FC/NES code, though I lack the expertise to even know if such things were possible back then. Either way, it all feels pretty correct. It also has a genuine unique selling point in its version of III, which combines the sensible JP damage scale with the much more exciting US enemy/powerup distributions.

Where this comp falls down is presentation. I realise that sounds petty, but you must understand: these ports are punishingly ugly to see and hear. I can only just tolerate them with the sound muted. It's like a random intern was handed monochrome graphic assests and MIDI sheet music and told to get it all sorted in a weekend. And that weekend involved MSPaint.

I've also heard mention of slowdown that's not in the 8bit games, which I don't recall having much if any to begin with... so even my appraisal of their gameplay may not be certain.

With the high price tag it goes for in both US and JP formats, I couldn't recommend it. You can get the whole FC trilogy complete for less, and I'd guess it's the same on NES.

[Sumez]

feels like emulation or at least FC/NES code, though I lack the expertise to even know if such things were possible back then.

The SNES/SFC CPU actually has a built in backwards compatibility mode, which was very rarely used for anything. I guess the console was supposed to be fully backwards compatible, but the rest of the hardware is far too different for it to make any real sense. It's commonly cited as one of the bad choices Nintendo made when they chose what CPU to go with for the SNES. (that said, people tend to underestimate it, too)

Whether that mode was actually used to reuse the original assembly code of the original games in Ninja Gaiden Trilogy, I don't know. But even if it weren't, the SNES is still based on a 65816, which is basically an evolution of the 6502 that the NES is based on, so rewriting the original code with very little consequence should be pretty simple.
If they did in fact reuse a lot of code that was optimized with the NES hardware design in mind (such as 8x8 sprites, etc.), that could easily explain some of the slowdown.

I believe I've heard that the bulk of the game logic in the All Stars version of SMB3 was also completely reused from the NES version?

[BIL]

Excellent technical insight, as expected from you. Had never heard about the backwards compatibility thing (either the feature or the criticism)! Totally guessing, but maybe that's what was used for Wrecking Crew 98's bonus port/emulation of the FC cartridge? Almost bought it for that alone, before I'd gotten into the FC proper (and before realising I'm still not sure if I like Wrecking Crew to begin with, haha).

I believe I've heard that the bulk of the game logic in the All Stars version of SMB3 was also completely reused from the NES version?

I've read the same, which is what got me thinking that NG Trilogy might've done similar. Where nearly all of NG2+3's hardware trickery is gone (sayanora dark forest and desert parallax), and the OSTs are totally bereft of the NES's pummeling drumbeats and delicate strings (SFC = POLKA ARRANGE VER)... the mechanics are accurate down to the tiniest flaws/features an 8bit veteran would expect.

Again strictly conjecture on my part, but I got the impression they just dumped the NES code in, got reasonable facsimiles of the games' essential features, then shirked anything requiring finer hardware-specific techniques. Damn shame really.

EDIT: oh god lmao. Every time NG Trilogy comes up, I'll compare the OSTs to make sure I'm not exaggerating bad memories. LOL NOPE.

"Unlimited Moment" NES vs SNES

Oof. Attack Of Babby's First MIDI Saxophone. Okay, so capturing those bittersweet violins and cellos might've been a bit much, but surely they got the drums, right? Those crisp DPCM hits that punch through the mix like Ma Deuce through a marshmallow Panzerkampfwagen? How hard can it be?

"Basilisk Mine Field" NES vs SNES

WHERE IS MY VOMIT EMOTICON X_X (16bit ver is Ryu being chased through an abandoned mine by a roving gang of polka musicians and a horde of giant mosquitos)

---

In happier news, Hagane posted about Fight'n Rage in What Not Shmup. Sounds promising! Haven't checked it out myself - just a heads-up, as I know we've quite a few beltscroller fans in here.

[__SKYe]

EDIT: oh god lmao. Every time NG Trilogy comes up, I'll compare the OSTs to make sure I'm not exaggerating bad memories. LOL NOPE.

"Unlimited Moment" NES vs SNES

Oof. Attack Of Babby's First MIDI Saxophone. Okay, so capturing those bittersweet violins and cellos might've been a bit much, but surely they got the drums, right? Those crisp DPCM hits that punch through the mix like Ma Deuce through a marshmallow Panzerkampfwagen? How hard can it be?

"Basilisk Mine Field" NES vs SNES

WHERE IS MY VOMIT EMOTICON X_X (16bit ver is Ryu being chased through an abandoned mine by a roving gang of polka musicians and a horde of giant mosquitos)

Oh damn, you weren't kidding. The 2nd track is especially bad, and something I would never weant to hear on a NG game.
Some bad sampling right there.

Great job on the Disco avatar.

[Jonny2x4]

Excellent technical insight, as expected from you. Had never heard about the backwards compatibility thing (either the feature or the criticism)! Totally guessing, but maybe that's what was used for Wrecking Crew 98's bonus port/emulation of the FC cartridge? Almost bought it for that alone, before I'd gotten into the FC proper (and before realising I'm still not sure if I like Wrecking Crew to begin with, haha).

As someone who never cared much for the original Wrecking Crew, I would still recommend Wrecking Crew '98. It's more of a versus puzzle game than whatever the original was supposed to be. I played through the single player mode years ago and had some fun with it. I remember the four hidden opponents were quite tough.

[BrianC]

"Basilisk Mine Field" NES vs SNES

The replacement tune on PCE isn't too hot either. The GB version of the tune in NG Shadow rocks, though.

[WelshMegalodon]

Alright, got the 2CC. A 1CC is doable in theory, but we'll see.

I think you needed an avatar for this task force thing? Or is BIL willing to make me one?

[BIL]

As someone who never cared much for the original Wrecking Crew, I would still recommend Wrecking Crew '98. It's more of a versus puzzle game than whatever the original was supposed to be. I played through the single player mode years ago and had some fun with it. I remember the four hidden opponents were quite tough.

Thanks! That's roughly the feeling I got from my brief tryout... the two games didn't seem very alike at all, with the SFC one seemingly preferable. I'll have to revisit. This probably goes for the original too, but I have vague bad memories of it.

The replacement tune on PCE isn't too hot either. The GB version of the tune in NG Shadow rocks, though.

Mechanically, the HuCard is categorically inferior to FC, stilted on both player and enemy sides alike. Aesthetically it's utterly abominable. Graphically it actually manages to make Trilogy look decent. No parallax > brutally choppy "parallax." And at least Trilogy keeps the nice compact sprites, albeit MSpainted over, instead of attempting a half-assed imitation of them. Compare the FC's sleek armoured attack dogs with the PCE's clipart Alsatians.

The coup de grace is Act 5-3, where the FC's vast, affectingly crumbling shrine becomes a fucking building site! I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

Musically it's a skittery, tuneless mess with none of the FC's hooks or drive, but I'll at least say I'd rather hear forgettable garbage than enduring butcherings of classic FC music that I want to drink myself into forgetting.

Oh man... this game fared so poorly on anything but its home turf. And today I learned that Shadow Warriors (NG1 PAL ver) is missing the snare drum! D: It uses some awful clicky thing instead. Couldn't catch a break, it seems.

Needless to say though, Natsume's GB game performs sterlingly. Besides the nice original tunes and fine treatment of NG1/3 BGMs, it's the explosions on larger enemies that I really enjoy. They're astonishingly Yagawa-violent.

Alright, got the 2CC. A 1CC is doable in theory, but we'll see.

I think you needed an avatar for this task force thing? Or is BIL willing to make me one?

Indeed, get yourself one or I'll saddle you with my choice for all eternity! Or, uh, until you choose your own! But if you get banned without an av, I'm gonna slap my original work right back on. Just ask AG99.

[M.Knight]

"Basilisk Mine Field" NES vs SNES

Oh my gooooood!...thank you so much for the laugh.
The SNES rendition is genuinely hilarous!

[FinalBaton]

Welsh. I'd make myself an avatar if I were you... Our good general BIL has a very twisted mind, you see you might end up bewildered by the avatar he gives you

(joking BIL )

[BIL]

He's gonna be "Welsh Cho Aniki" if he doesn't sort himself out. ^_~

[WelshMegalodon]

<-- So what do you think?

[__SKYe]

He's gonna be "Welsh Cho Aniki" if he doesn't sort himself out. ^_~

That would actually be awesome.

[BIL]

<-- So what do you think?

CONFIRMED (■｀ω´■)

NOT ONLY DID YOU MAKE THE SQUAD,

YOU DODGED MY MENS BEAM BY MERE SECONDS (■｀ω´■)