4th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

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Herr Schatten
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Post by Herr Schatten »

Neon wrote:
Battle Squadron
I've only played it on Genesis but it was pretty mediocre. Is the Amiga one any different?
The Amiga version is a lot better. The Mega Drive version changed a few things, but all of them for the worse, plus it has some glaring design flaws (like parallax layers completely obsuring the playfield -ack!) not present in the original.

The Amiga version has outstanding music and is a perfectly enjoyable game. I don't think it's one of the top shmups ever, but it's a good shmup nonetheless, especially for a machine that was plagued with substandard shooters. Like Wings of Death (which is another good but not great Amiga vert) I'd easily rate it higher than about 50 percent of the PCE's or about 60 pecent of the Mega Drive's shooter library (including the MD version of Battle Squadron, of course).

One interesting thing about Battle Squadron is the options screen. Instead of adjusting the difficulty you can change the number and speed of bullets on screen, basically changing the gaming experience from a semi-Seibu to a proto-Cave style. Cool concept and worth playing around with.

However. The only Amiga shmups that really deserve to be in a shmups hall of fame along with the best titles on other systems are Apidya, Uridium 2 and Z-Out, IMO, as only those are really on par with the best of the genre, gameplay-wise. While some of them are very enjoyable, all the others tend to severely lack in substance and are mostly remembered fondly for other reasons like good sound, great visuals or simply nostalgia (Agony, Menace, Blood Money, to name but a few).
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Post by ST Dragon »

You present some very interesting points there, but regarding the "shmups hall of fame" imo the AMIGA shooters that deserve to be placed in that hall are:

Apidya
Agony
Disposable Hero
Swiv

They're all on par with the equivalent arcade & console shooters in the gameplay department.
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Shatterhand
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Post by Shatterhand »

Battle Squadron, Apidya, Uridium 2, Dispsable Hero and Z-Out.

Maybe Banshee was good too, but I never played it.

I love the Amiga version of Battle Squadron, I always though that was actually an arcade conversion. The music is indeed awesome, as the sound FX is (The main ship explosion is the best sound fx of its kind I ever heard.. it doesn't sound much like an explosion, but it's really very cool).

The main difference between the Amiga (the orignal one)and MD version, AFAIK, are:

The Amiga version has better sound overall.
The Amiga version doesn't have the obscuring parallax layers (This really kills the MD version)
The weapons in the Amiga version have more levels of power - If I remember correctly, in the MD version you power up each weapon 4 times, while you power up each weapon 7 times on Amiga - The MD version just "skips" some power levels - in both games the weapon starts at level 2, not level 1.
In the Amiga version, you have to hold the button and circle the stick to use a bomb, while in the MD you just press a button.
The Amiga version is generally harder (Nearly frustrating sometimes :) )

I still put it in my top 25... with a few refinements in gameplay, the game would be in my top 10 for sure.

Herr Schatten, Disposable Hero is really pretty good, have you never played it? I think it's better than Z-Out even, though not as good as Apidya (Which is the best shmup in the system, hands down)

Swiv is kinda of boring and overrated IMO. Agony looks greatly, but the gameplay isn't all that hot.
I hope some Amiga shooter makes the list this year. Battle Squadron and Disposable Hero need some respect
I still think that Apidya doesn't make to the list simply because people here haven't played it. Many people here just don't care too much about shmups which weren't released in arcades firstly OR which they have to mess with emulators to play.

I'd hope one MSX game could make to the list once too. And I also think that Space Manbow doesn't make it, again, because people here haven't played it. - I remember before my review of it was uploaded, there was a review by Felix the Cat in the old site, and it really showed how he had played the game for like 5 minutes - he didn't get most of the features of the game (ANd even said you only used one button in the game, while you actually uses 2), and it had screenshots only for the first level.

I guess that's what most people do with old emulated games: play them for 5 minutes, just for curiosity sake :)
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Post by Ko.oS »

demasiado mas gente aqui no habla amiga...

on a more serious note (or maybe not) - if you put an "obscure" game you deem worthy of more attention in your T25, it will get mentioned on the HM list. If someone who's bored enough to "read" that one might go: "ey, what is this? lemme try it out", you've done your job. if they only play it for a couple minutes b4 dismissing it altogether, it's their loss. ;)

oh and "thats not the purpose of the poll at all"-kids. kiss my arse.
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Post by Shocky »

Amiga has loads of great original euro-shmups, which very well can compete with most of the arcade and console shmups. One thing is music, while some otherwise great arcade games had really lame and simple music, it was a tradition to make memorable and inventive tunes to Amiga games. One reason might be that in a noisy arcade hall you rarely even hear the music anyway.

It's true that many gorgeous looking or sounding Amiga shmups don't really play all that well, regardless of some quirky gameplay ideas. Xenon II is too easy, Sidewinder is quite boring in the later levels (fabulous music and sounds though!), same goes for Hybris, SWIV was a bit repetitive, but the detailed stages and enemies make it a winner.

In Agony, that goddamned owl and many of the enemies were so big that it ate up half the gameplay that could have been, too bad. Still it was so ambitious and dramatic that I'm gonna vote it for years to come, unless someone comes up with something more impressive on the artistic side.

X-Out was in my opinion a success in graphics/sounds/atmosphere, and even more so in the weapon system, AND the gameplay was good. Z-Out was more of a standard shooter without any bold gameplay experiments, that's why I prefer X-Out. Both are great though.

Then there were these games like Carcharodon that did everything well, but didn't rise to the top on any single area. Project-X might go to this category too, eventhough the graphics were top notch back in the day.
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Post by Neon »

One interesting thing about Battle Squadron is the options screen. Instead of adjusting the difficulty you can change the number and speed of bullets on screen, basically changing the gaming experience from a semi-Seibu to a proto-Cave style. Cool concept and worth playing around with.
Great posts, thanks Herr and Shatter. I'll give this a try.

Amiga > Genesis conversions on the whole weren't that good then?
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Post by Shatterhand »

They would usually lose a lot in the music department, but sometimes would gain in graphics (Like Turrican 3 <> Mega Turrican, Global Gladiators, or even Battle Squadron, which loses in gameplay BECAUSE of the "graphics enhancement").

My list of votes always have obscure games. I mean, for the 4th year I voted for HYPE, and I doubt anyone else in this board has played this game :) . It's an MSX game that even a lot of MSX users don't know

Here a couple of screenshots of it:

http://www.juegomania.org/msx/203

Not to mention I keep my vote for Apidya, Space Manbow, Uridium 2... in previous years I voted for Super Stardust too. I think even Knightmare and Hinotori (Both are vertical MSX shmups by Konami) also made to my list in the 1st year.
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Post by visuatrox »

About the Amiga shmups. I agree most of them now in retrospect did not have that great gameplay, but just top notch music and graphics (xenon 2 , Agony, Blood Money etc..).

But I honestly think Disposable Hero has the best gameplay out of any horisontal shooter, although it should be played at hardest difficulty for the best gameplay (there is other/more enemies depending on difficulty level, and btw the CD32 version has outstanding music).

My judgement may be clouded about Battle Squadron because it was one of the shmups that got me caught in the genre, but I still today think the game is awesome. It has a faster more manic pace than any shooter I remember playing from that time and age. And like has been mentioned the music and sound effects were just perfect. I also used to think it was an arcade conversion :O

Even though I was a complete Amiga nut and played most games on the system, I haven't actually played Apidya :O. I'm not a big fan of the Uridium games, because they frustrate me. Always when I think things are going good, wham! I hit a wall :(
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Post by Shatterhand »

So keep an eye in the radar to not hit the walls.

This will help you, at least on the earlier levels :)


For some STUPID reason, Apidya was shadowed by Project-X, which was released just a few weeks after. Everyone went crazy for Project-X (Mainly because it had stunning graphics), and Apidya suffered . Apidya is like 100 times better than Project X, but it indeed has inferior graphics (Not that they are bad, they are EXCELLENT, but Project X really looked incredibly stunning).


One amusing thing to notice is, that when the game was re-released in a budget price, it was Team17 who re-released it (The creators of Project X) :D
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Post by Turrican »

Herr Schatten wrote:
However. The only Amiga shmups that really deserve to be in a shmups hall of fame along with the best titles on other systems are Apidya, Uridium 2 and Z-Out, IMO, as only those are really on par with the best of the genre, gameplay-wise.
If you're just talking about games which were created on Amiga, that's an agreeable (if strict) list. But if you're talking of plain shmups on amiga, you are missing Silkworm.
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Post by Turrican »

Rob wrote:
Turrican wrote: What's your suggestion, Rob? Either we make less strict rules, or we simply put a "minimum number or posts before you can vote" trick...
I think people should just read the rules and follow them. It's also a bit ridiculous for people with 10 posts to come around and vote... Not that 1400 posts should be a requirement, it's just a list to represent the shmups forum.
If so many voters don't read / follow these rules, maybe they are a little too strict.
Although I too noticed a couple of "spam votes" (although I'd never point at which ones, after all this might just be biased opinion) I must say I'm pretty happy that the number of voters has increased.
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Post by drsmoo »

Can I nominate under defeat?
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Post by Ganelon »

Nope:
Zach Keene wrote: 03) Shmups released in calendar year 2006 are not eligible for consideration.
How ironically brought up...
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Post by benj »

Ganelon wrote:Nope:
Zach Keene wrote: 03) Shmups released in calendar year 2006 are not eligible for consideration.
How ironically brought up...
But Under Defeat was released in 2005, wasn't it?
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Post by Alpolio »

benj wrote:
Ganelon wrote:Nope:
Zach Keene wrote: 03) Shmups released in calendar year 2006 are not eligible for consideration.
How ironically brought up...
But Under Defeat was released in 2005, wasn't it?
Yeah. It came out in 2005. (link)
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Post by Keranu »

ST DRAGON, when will you send me tickets to Greece?
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Post by Ganelon »

Alpolio wrote:
benj wrote:
Ganelon wrote:Nope:
How ironically brought up...
But Under Defeat was released in 2005, wasn't it?
Yeah. It came out in 2005. (link)
Whoops, silly me. :oops: Well, if you feel you've played enough of a game to be able to make a concrete judgment, it's certainly OK then.
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Post by elvis »

Ko.oS wrote:on a more serious note (or maybe not) - if you put an "obscure" game you deem worthy of more attention in your T25, it will get mentioned on the HM list. If someone who's bored enough to "read" that one might go: "ey, what is this? lemme try it out", you've done your job.
So far I've read through everyone's submissions and done just that. Anything I see that I've never heard of (and that's quite a bit, actually) I'll try and track down and give it a whirl. So far it's opened my eyes to some fantastic titles, new and old.
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Post by Shatterhand »

rolins wrote:[10000] [Zanac (MSX1)]
[300] [Aleste 2 (MSX2)]
[100] [Salamander (MSX1)]
[100] [Galaga (ARC)]
[90] [Zanac Neo (PS)]
[80] [Hype (MSX1)]
[80] [Anaza Kaleidoscope Special (MSX1)]
[80] [Xevious Fardraut Saga (MSX2)]
[80] [Xevious (ARC)]
[75] [Knightmare (MSX1)]
[75] [Zanac EX (MSX2)]
[75] [Gradius Gaiden (PS)]
[70] [Aleste (MSX2)]
[70] [Gunhed (PCE)]
[70] [Blaster Burn (MSX1)]
[70] [Super Raiden (PCE)]
[65] [Gradius II (PCE)]
[60] [Kyuukyoku Tiger (PCE)]
[60] [Undeadline (MSX2)]
[60] [Super Laydock (MSX1)]
[55] [Einhander (PS)]
[50] [Gun Nac (NES)]
[45] [R-Type (PCE)]
[20] [R-Type Delta (PS)]
[20] [Terra Cresta (NES)]

It's hard too make a list of 25 shooters. Not sure if I'm satisfied with it though because I know I forgot a few.
GOOD LORD, someone else voted for Hype ! This guy voted for more MSX games than me! Not to mention he also voted for Blaster Burn and Kaleidoscope Special, 2 awesome shmups that I bet no one else here in this board have played :)

Do we have another MSX fan in this board now ? :)
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Ko.oS
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Post by Ko.oS »

...and here I thought that was you in disguise (aka fake account). :o
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Post by rolins »

Hello, I just wanted greet everyone. I just recently joined and its my first year voting here. I've been looking around the forum, and I already read about shmups I've never heard of, it makes me salivate in the mouth that I been missing out on lot of good games. Everyone played so many shmups on arcades and latest next-gen consoles, already I feel small. Here I'm stuck in the past sitting quitely on 8bit/16bit systems and the PSone. I definitely have to keep up with the times, if going to understand all the esoteric stuff you guys talk about.

Shatterhand wrote: Do we have another MSX fan in this board now ? :)
Yes, Shatterhand I've been a MSX fan for 16 years strong, and a COMPILE fan as well.


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Post by Bydobasher »

Welcome! :D
Here I'm stuck in the past sitting quitely on 8bit/16bit systems and the PSone.
Nothing wrong with that! I like the older stuff too. :)
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Post by Ceph »

Bydobasher wrote:Welcome! :D
Here I'm stuck in the past sitting quitely on 8bit/16bit systems and the PSone.
Nothing wrong with that! I like the older stuff too. :)
Though technically you should know most shmups to vote.
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Post by Ceph »

Why is there so much praise for Z-Out? X-Out had better graphics/music and was much more inventive (weapon system), while Z-Out is an R-Type clone with Darius-like enemy formations.

I've been thinking long and hard about including an Amiga shmup, but honestly couldn't find space for one... Apidya comes very close, though. If there was a console port of Apidya, I would buy it instantly (SNES and Super CD-Rom should have been able to handle the game well, imo). Why they ported crap like Jim Power (great music by Hülsbeck, though) to Super CD-Rom instead is beyond me.

And now to something completely different: Is no-one going to include Under Defeat?
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Post by Herr Schatten »

Ceph wrote:Why is there so much praise for Z-Out? X-Out had better graphics/music and was much more inventive (weapon system), while Z-Out is an R-Type clone with Darius-like enemy formations.
First of all, the two games are totally unrelated. Z-Out is NOT the sequel of X-Out, but it was developed under the (much better, imo) name "Wargate" by a totally different team and the Z-Out label was just slapped on it by the publisher. Comparing the two of them doesn't make a lot of sense. Apples and Oranges, you know.

Whether better graphics/music make a game automatically superior is highly debatable. X-Out does have pretty good graphics and those of Z-Out can't compare. Except for the last two levels which were made by a different artist than the first four. Those blow away pretty much everything else on the Amiga, including the whole of X-Out.

Personally, I like the music of Z-Out better than that of X-Out. Except for Hülsbecks lacklustre title tune, the music in the game (done by Rudolf Stember) is fresh and memorable and the church organ theme in stage 5 is downright creepy. And Hülsbeck's music for X-Out doesn't really rank among his best efforts. He even re-uses a theme from the first Turrican game. Lazy.

Now on to the gameplay.

X-Out had some very innovative ideas, like using your score for buying ships and weapons and forcing you to make a direct decision between scoring and survival. But like in many euroshmups there are too many useless weapons, which kinda dumbs down the beautiful idea. When you're in the game, you'll notice quickly that X-Out is a (bug-ridden) rush job and severely lacking in level design. The formations are uninspired, the bosses are dull and the playfield is too big. TFIV used a big playfield that scrolls up and down and still managed to create exciting and challenging stages. X-Out tries this, but fails. X-Out is (like, say, Xenon II) another typical example of a shmup created by people who normally don't play shmups. They create something that looks alright, but despite their efforts it just doesn't feel like it should, because they don't have a real understanding of what works and what doesn't, which can only come from actually playing a lot of the best games in the genre, not by just looking at them. Instead of concentrating on a few ideas and building a good game around them, the creators of said euroshmups (including X-Out) tend to get carried away with ideas like "wouldn't it be cool to have a hundred selectable weapons?" or "what if one of the bosses was an octopus with a laser cannon? That would look totally awesome". Good game designers think first about how a stage/boss should work, then find the appropriate visual design. Not-quite-as-good game designers think about looks/story/number of weapons first and then about mechanics.

And that's exactly what sets games like Apidya, Z-Out and Battle Squadron apart from the vast majority of western shmups. By playing them you can easily tell that their creators played a lot of the best games in the genre and learned something from that. They didn't just mimick stuff, they understood why their favourite games worked and put that knowledge to good use. Of course Z-Out is an R-Type clone, but it's one of the best. Once you play it beyond the initial "oh, it's just another R-Type clone"-impression, you'll notice that the level and boss design is outstanding, especially in later levels. (I'm talking about gameplay here, not graphics, just to be perfectly clear.)

So, why is there so much praise for Z-Out and not for X-Out? Actually, there's plenty of praise for X-Out (far too much if you ask me), but it mostly comes from casual players who like looking at pretty graphics, not from fans of the genre who like playing good games. There's not really all that much praise for Z-Out.

Anyway, IMO, apart from Pulstar, Z-Out is the best R-Type-like game that's not part of the original series and it deserves all the praise it gets. Every little bit fits, the game just works. It's the playability that sets it apart.
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Post by Ceph »

Thanks, that was informative. To be honest, I haven't played X-Out since 1992 or so. So my positive memories of it may vary from how good it really is - I guess I'd judge it differently if I played it again today (having played oh so many shmups since).

I never knew that X-Out and Z-Out were unrelated.
I still remember how excited I was when I heard about this "sequel" to X-Out, and I immediately purchased Z-Out when I first saw it in a store. Then I hurried home, booted the game with my Amiga 500... and was so disappointed (like all my friends who had previously been impressed by X-Out). The game then quickly went into a large box with unneeded old games in my parents' attic. It's still there, maybe I'll dig it out next time I visit :)
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Post by Shatterhand »

rolins wrote:
Yes, Shatterhand I've been a MSX fan for 16 years strong, and a COMPILE fan as well.
Heh, that's me :).
Except I am an MSX fan for.. holy damn, 20 years very soon! I learned to READ in that little machine :)

Shit, I am getting old...... :)


I still find amusing to see one more vote for Hype, I really thought I would be the only one voting for it for the next 10 years :)
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Post by gameoverDude »

Here are my top 25 shmups for the year.

Ibara (Arcade release 2005)
Under Defeat (same story)
Giga Wing
Raiden Figthers Jet
Battle Garegga
Battle Bakraid
Border Down
Truxton 2
DDP-DOJ
Ketsui
ESPRaDe
ESPGaluda
Progear
Guwange
Zanac Neo
MUSHA
Thunder Force IV (The best of the TF series. TFV didn't click with me for some reason. TecnoSoft had the 2D power of the Saturn at their disposal, but instead tried going 3D. A 3D title should have waited for the Dreamcast.)
Hyper Duel
Twin Eagle
1941
19XX
Daioh
Darius Gaiden
Gekirindan (F3 version only)
Shienryu
Kinect? KIN NOT.
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Post by Turrican »

Hello Mr. Shmupo.

The election is drawing near, have you decided on your vote?
If you haven't, please let the Shooting party make the most of your precious vote.

Thank you, and have a nice day.


We're in a tight spot!

I can't believe how many old pals around here haven't voted yet - SheSaidDutch, Tehkao, Accutron, parodius, DarkWolf7, Blue Lander, Alpha5099, and many more. Where are you guys?

Should we remind them via a pm?

in the name of Harman...
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Post by Alpolio »

It woudln't hurt PMing them. Since this is the last day, I've been tweaking my vote all day long.
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