My Vizio fried in a power surge looking to upgrade

[Hoagtech]

You guys have been helpful in the past finding me great low lag big screen TVs.

I still love my SONY KDL 65 W 950 b (65” 17ms lag 2014 set) even though the native OSSC compatibility doesn’t go past “2x”

That is staying in my gaming room but recently we had a “silver thaw” occur and when a tree branch ripped out my transformer, my VIZIO M-70 D3 (70” 2016 14ms lag) popped and went up in smoke.

The insurance adjuster gave me full reimbursement ($2,129) to buy a new set for my living room.

I am kind of glad I got this opportunity because the picture quality was weird on the Vizio (colors were not right compared the Sony) and the hdmi 5 being the only low input lag port caused me and my wife annoyance.

That being said, after digging through rtings and input lag database, it seems like they are lacking in newer model information like they used to.

I am looking for a Low lag big screen tv and OSSC compatibility is not a big issue as I mostly play my 240p on my Megaview CRT.

My budget is $4,000 USD or relative €3300

an 85” would be awesome but low lag is priority.

Any suggestions ?

[Xyga]

Sucks...I always freak out when there's a storm, running around the house unplugging everything but the fridge.

Popular choice in 75" http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e only two frames of lag, good motion.

But bigger?

I think the 2016 Sony X850D is still available, but the relatively low lag (2 frames) only works with 1080p, not 4K and 4K HDR where it climbs at over 3 frames.
Dunno about OSSC compatibility but it's supposed to be better on the 4K sets than it was back in the W series full-hd era.

Samsung have the MU8000 in 82", even better lag than the Sony but it uses PWM backlighting and I personally stay away from that.
No idea how the OSSC fares here.

Of course the LG OLED (E7, B7, C7) beat everything for sure, lag's 21ms, they're even great for the OSSC!
But 65" max...

All the sets mentioned in this post are reviewed on Rtings by the way.

[orange808]

I've been eyeing new projectors since the HT2150ST came out.

100" screen would be nice upstairs.

[otj]

It might also be possible to repair the Visio. If it's decently designed, I would think the protection circuitry would pop before the important bits are fried.

If you really liked the TV, it might be worth having someone you trust look at it.

[Hoagtech]

Sucks...I always freak out when there's a storm, running around the house unplugging everything but the fridge.

Popular choice in 75" http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e only two frames of lag, good motion.

But bigger?

I think the 2016 Sony X850D is still available, but the relatively low lag (2 frames) only works with 1080p, not 4K and 4K HDR where it climbs at over 3 frames.
Dunno about OSSC compatibility but it's supposed to be better on the 4K sets than it was back in the W series full-hd era.

Samsung have the MU8000 in 82", even better lag than the Sony but it uses PWM backlighting and I personally stay away from that.
No idea how the OSSC fares here.

Of course the LG OLED (E7, B7, C7) beat everything for sure, lag's 21ms, they're even great for the OSSC!
But 65" max...

All the sets mentioned in this post are reviewed on Rtings by the way.

Thanks Xyga.

I do not like the sound of anything 24ms plus as I generally game on a CRT.

The Samsung MU8000 sounds enticing but I am unsure why you do not like the PWM backlighting?

Can you elaborate?

I was looking at the Q9F by Samsung https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qled-q9f-q9

It seems to have the best delay for both 1080p and 4K future scaling (9x someday soon hopefully)

The extra 10 ms on the Sony is literally 33% More delay comparatively.

I just don't want to go from Vizio to Samsung but the numbers seem right..

[Xyga]

LCD backlight using PWM for dimming add motion artifacts http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts/
More in pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N08/16320517710/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/97364704@N ... ed-public/
Also PWM can give migraines: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pu ... de_effects
The slower in frequency the worse, and practically all Samsung, LG and Vizio sets use slow-ass PWM for dimming, even @100% brightness.

Rting's reviews are what's most convenient on the internet but be wary that some tests and ratings are a bit questionable, especially the motion tests section because they dissociate motion and PWM flickering (understand flickering as PWM, most monitors sold as flicker-free = PWM-free) and in fact mix it with the featured true blur reduction methods you can turn on/off and intended for viewing contents (interpolation and strobing/BFI)

They have created a lot of confusion and misunderstanding IMHO with the untold intent of not hurting Samsung LG etc who all use those crappy PWM backlights, one very twisted excuse they've devised is that by principle your eye will supposedly catch a blurr-less picture frame when it's flashed/strobed into you brain, this is the logic behind the real blur reduction technologies, but not PWM backlight with which in theory the reduced blur reduction might somewhat happen but completely at random in the actual frame flow. Basically your eye-brain during viewing/playing sessions will catch mixtures of still pictures with less blur and moving ones or just objects with added blurring artifacts, and - depending on one's sensitivity - put more strain on your eyes-brain (I've met people who get a headache from PWM in 20~30mn)
Many people have been so confused and misinformed by Rtings that they even understand things completely wrong way and think 'flicker-free' (also not understanding that it means PWM-free) is actually bad, they think those PWM-heavy TVs will not have 60Hz sample-and-hold blur when in fact they do and add more artifacts on top.

PWM backlight isn't a problem if it's fast enough, iirc over 2000Hz it is imperceptible, but Samsung, LG, Vizio etc all use slow PWM, the most artifacts and migraines-inducing.
All serious monitors reviewers would trash the crap out of a monitor using PWM like this today, they get a pass if PWM only kicks at under 20% brightness but if it's there all accross brightness range the monitor goes to the dump. PWM is the stone age of LED backlighting that was prominent between 2010 and 2013, today good LCD backlighting uses DC (Direct Current) and is completely free of those PWM-artifacts.

I think only Sony do PWM-free LCD TVs now, dunno about Panasonic and less known brands since they are never reviewed enough in-depht.
And of course the LG OLED don't use backlight at all, though I've heard they use PWM for dimming the dots individually, but I don't know at all if that cases issues similar to backlight PWM. From all the reviews I've read, it seems not. The 'blur' on OLEDs people complain about is the same you will see on a Sony or a any pc monitors that's PWM-free; it's the normal 60H sample-and-hold, it's just that a lot of people are used to inaccurate motion perception due to PWM and they just discover what's true and right.
Our dream is to get actual blur-reduction methods at higher frequencies but without using lag-heavy methods like interpolation mixed with BFI for instance, but this is worth an entire discussion so i'll let you read about that yourself.

In any case if you're okay with 65" I don't know the life of me why you would pick anything but an LG OLED.
Those literally murder any LCD and have 21ms of lag, which means the middle bar for the Leo Bodnar tester, meaning the top bar and actual input lag is just a bit over 12ms, but like every clumsy reviewers Rtings forget to mention that in their reviews and explain what it means.
The OSSC compatibility iagain is known to be excellent.

Sony X900E would be a second choice but far behind.

Samsung again have that horrid PWM, and scaling's typically not as pleasing as Sony's from my general experience with the brand, oversharpened and possibly letting slight inconsitencies like non-uniformy distributed fake scanlines artifacts appear (moire-like), but quality varies a lot as Samsung are one of those manufacturers that change a lot of things hardware and software almost every damn year.
I always put Samsung behind because their sets aren't so much better than non-oled-LG and Vizio or TCL, but they're priced like the more competent ones like Sony.
Though I've been battling years to make people understand that Rtings can be misleading and Samsung are frauds, I know the power of the internet's majority opinion is stronger and people will believe in the 'aura' of a brand/manufacturer.

Trust me brand fidelity has absolutely no rational reason to be in the case of Samsung, and Vizio are good for what they are: good low-cost and better value for money than Samsung.
Whatever, you buy what you want, but if you wanted a no-BS opinion well you got one, Sony sets and the LG OLEDs are the best.

EDIT: the funny thing about Rtings is that some of their tests are misleading and the ratings are funky, but in the end they still put the Sony sets on top:
Check their 70+ inches displays ranking: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/best/b ... 70-75-inch
Even the cheaper Sony X690E beats Samsung and Vizio contenders as a bare 60Hz large display, which is what one needs to look at first when thinking video games (it's not good for movies or fancy stuff though, but the price is great)

[Xyga]

I think that's too small for him though. ^^

[Xyga]

I think you're overestimating how many people would notice or even care about the difference between PWM and PWM-free backlighting.

No I'm not, it's just that I have a better eye for this and know better because I've been into flat panel tech for over a decade with focus on retrogaming.
I do notice and I'm not the only one, good for you if you don't and keep your fingers crossed that no one will ever make a demonstration of the issues with PWM in front of your eyes because you won't be able to unsee after that.
Easily over 9 ouf 10 people who buy flat panel displays don't know the first thing they should, and as many can't stand being told they're lacking knowledge or are wrong and/or made a not-so-good purchase.

Vast majority of TV enthusiasts look at contrast/brightness/colour saturation/colour volume above anything else.

Real TV and displays enthusiast look at way more things thant that, so many actually that it's typically overwhelming for the average person.
But for retrogaming and general 60Hz console gaming there's less stuff to look at, but still many fundamentals that are critical.

They're not being tricked into buying Samsung sets because of the 'aura' of the brand, it's because they make good TVs, like the KS7000/8000, probably the best mid-range set of 2016.

Samsung make good TVs for those who look only at the popular features, 4K and HDR on top as well as interpolation, but Samsung typically skip some basics of flat panel displays that are decent motion and scaling for 60Hz and lower resolutions.
Right, if you don't care about retro games and/or basic PC usage and your only interest is 4K gaming with HDR and you choose to ignore PWM motion artifacts forever then the overpriced Samsung sets are certainly good.

This notion that OLEDs "literally murder any LCD" is misleading hyperbole too. OLEDs will typically win TV shootouts because of their true blacks and infinite contrast

And bloody damn instant pixel response. Yes they murder LCDs. The only thing OLEDs lack to give those the finishing blow is plasma-like motion.

but with a HDR future (or present) ahead, OLEDs can't touch LCDs when it comes to peak brightness (good luck finding an OLED that can hit 1,000 nits of peak brightness, let alone 10,000 nits), while retaining deep, almost OLED-esque blacks with high-end FALD. With OLEDs, you also run into the problem of burn-in, as well as non-uniform pixel decay over time.

HDR is not the everything alpha-and-omega of displays, it's made for contents specifically designed for compatible HDR standards, which very few sets on the market actually really honour. If your only interest is HDR like apparently the vast majority of self-proclaimed 'displays-enthusiast' consumers today to the point that you will overlook laughable technology cheapstake fails like shitty PWM on expensive top-of-the-line displays, and disregard fundamental and critical technical points and not care about blatant excellent evolutions and improvements, then you definitely are the ideal customer for Samsung.

EDIT: burn-in is a problem but from the returns less-so than with plasmas, and plasma owners in their time could deal with that pretty well already, one just need to be mindful a bit of not letting fixed/still stuff on contiuously for a long time and that's it.

Anyway again for playing games those fundamentals are very important, idgaf if people don't know and don't want to know because of purchaser's pride, those are facts.
Now I don't mean to push people to buy exactly what I say nor to avoid making compromises.
If they're okay with PWM and looking for a good TV for retrogaming and also general modern console gaming, why would I not tell them the truth which is Samsung making overpriced sets with PWM and meh scaling, while there are indeed better deals to have with Vizio and yes also TCL ?

I get that you own a Samsung and you like it a lot, I don't care, I won't alter the truth nor my critical advice to be gentle because people are offended that I say they might have made a bad purchase. Period.

[Xyga]

Pro TV calibrators and reviewers focus on home AV/cinema-related contents use and don't care much about video games and especially don't know shit about retro systems, which are the focus here and other similar communities when it comes to flat panels needs and discussions.

When thinking games it's indispensable to combine knowledge of both TVs and monitors, the latter are same thing without most of the video and broadcast functions but are typically more competent for our needs. If you want a TV that's good for games it absolutely needs to also be a decent monitor, you'll be able to sort them when you know what first makes a good monitor and therefore good flat panel display to begin.

And again the average consumer doesn't know shit, the overwhelming number of ill-informed bullshit opinions you'll find on the internet when it comes to tech produts is astounding, and displays has to be one of the worst categories.

You seem to have a lot of pent-up frustration about this topic.

Lol no. Trust me I'm more comfortable than you here knowing what I'm talking about.

I don't own a Samsung nor do I give a fuck about brand loyalty.

Good!

[Xyga]

Dude this is a gaming and in particular retrogaming dedicated community, and a thread about picking a TV for gaming.
So...er...what's your deal?
I was replying to Hoagtech's posts and questions with on-topic stuff if that could help him.
It seems you've missed the purpose of the thread and kept making wrong points because you didn't really pay attention to OP's request but couldn't stand being disagreed with.
I might be rude but you're wrong, and that's why I'm rude.

Oh intenet...

[Xyga]

You're an annoying immature idiot who should have shut up but couldn't, and you're sinking deeper and deeper into stupid statements because pride.
Oh God, go away.

[Blair]

for $4000 I would almost be tempted to look at projectors. that could get you a screen size of over 100 inches. as for input lag, the only projector brand I know of that focuses on gaming is BenQ with most of its gaming range being 16ms and lower. the problem is I don't think they make 4K projectors (yet) in the gaming category. but I didn't have a chance to check what was going on with projectors at CES 2018 outside of Sony's laser projectors which look/sound amazing but probably run $30,000. (most affordable laser projectors are in the $2000 to $3000 range)

for a direct view screen I agree with Xyga's take on the LG OLED's probably being the best mix of input lag performance and visual quality in your price range at this point in time. or you can wait a little bit for a model refresh as CES 2018 is now and over and all the notable 2018 models have been pretty much unveiled. the most exciting thing TV wise I saw at the show was Samsung's micro LED display, which (in theory) if implemented properly could give OLED a run for its money, but but that's pretty far off from being a consumer product (late 2020 by the earliest is my estimation) the current prototype has a few drawbacks that need to be addressed. Sony and Panasonic also showed off their own OLED offerings but we will just have to wait for reviews see how they stack up against LG's current sets.

LG also announced that 2018 OLEDs would have improved video scalar technology. so that might be something to think about (there was an odd focus this year by several manufacturers on upscaling standard definition content like 480i/480p up to 4K. not sure what that was about, but I'm definitely interested as I still use a lot of game systems and media with those resolutions).

[Hoagtech]

Thanks for the comments guys. The Samsung scaling seems like an issue I would be bothered with.

But this PWM has got me confused.

I always thought motion judder was a symptom of LED backlighting vs TFT in general.

I read the blur busters article you linked and it said PWM motion doubling was more apparent in lower brightness settings.

Also isn’t PWM an option I could disable? On Sony sets it was an option

The wife didn’t like the 70” Vizio at first but now she doesn’t want to go back to a 65”.

I like the OLED but the inches aren’t quite there. Ideally I would like a 75 or bigger.

I never liked Samsung products to begin with so I’ll take your advice and steer clear.

As for projectors. I still have my EPSON HC 705 on it’s third bulb and I still break it out for hot tub movies and outdoor gaming (35 ms lag ain’t bad for 100” da lite screen) but the living room has skylights and windows everywhere so I don’t think it would be ideal for indoors

Even though I did not like the picture or contrast ratio on the Vizio

I think am going to just buy it again Vizio M70 d3 or go for the 80 M70 D3 but now I am noticing it uses PWM at 120hz as well.

I really want a Sony but I can’t find one over 70” that has a sub 30ms input delay on both 1080p & 4K.

[Xyga]

The Samsung scaling seems like an issue I would be bothered with.

Not verified for this particular set, maybe it's good but most scaling tests you'll find around are completely useless.
My experience with Samsung scaling has been overall disappointing, but that doesn't mean they don't have displays where it is better-implemented.
As I said Samsung change things more often than Sony or LG and it's hard to keep track.

I always thought motion judder was a symptom of LED backlighting vs TFT in general.

There's several causes but typically with TVs judder is mentioned when testing the ability of the set to play certain video signals smoothly without hiccups/occasional skipframes. It's a seperate test.

I read the blur busters article you linked and it said PWM motion doubling was more apparent in lower brightness settings.

Depends on the set but the issue with those TVs is that most of them use a single refresh cycle all accross the brightness range, so turning it up/down won't make a big difference.
Some TVs use different cycle frequencies at different brightness levels, and some even disable PWM completely when they reach 100% (that was inherited from eraly years LED LCD monitors)
But even that kind of implementation seems to have become rare. Today lots of sets use like a unique 120Hz cycle no matter the settings. Ugh.

Also isn’t PWM an option I could disable? On Sony sets it was an option

No definitely not, you're maybe mistaking it with the strobing (aka impulse) feature many Sony sets come with. When you turn it on sure it takes over PWM, but we all know all the issues that come with strobing, in particular at 60Hz, very darkened picture, heavy very perceptible flickering and often artifacts due to not syncing exactly to the source.

PWM is the backlight itself flickering constantly at its own frequency independently of the displayed signal and everywhere all the time, save of course when using featured motion reduction options that involve controlling the backlight.
Whether PWM is worse for motion perception vs. PWM-free (DC) is not up for debate, it is verified, measured, tested over and over, it's a fact. With the latter you get a smoother, more accurate display of the source in motion, for our basic 60Hz gaming needs it is of course a preferable choice (it's not the only thing to look at when buying a display of course, but it is important to know what it is and and what it does)
It is important though when buying a flicker-free displays that the panel's average pixel response be overall good, otherwise the ghosting might be too apparent.
Thankfully several Sony sets are PWM-free along with very decent or even quite good response, at least for LCD TVs.
It is too bad indeed though, that the few eligible Sony models have got a little bit more lag than the few competitors around, and since lag combined with XL size is your #1 criteria then, well, that leaves indeed even the OLED out, so it's up to you and you wife, there aren't tons of options in that size category anyway. ^^
If you buy another Vizio; well iirc they all have 120Hz PWM anyway, if it didn't bother you before that shouldn't be a problem.

I'll add that I agree about the possibility of repair.
Cant talk about projectors, I've never really looked into those.

[Hoagtech]

I think I am going to go with the Vizio M80-D3 because I treasure input lag and screen size above all else.

It’s 80” and boasts 17ms 1080p and 17ms 4K and I already know what to expect from the M70 that fried.

Sony needs to make another low input set. I have a feeling it doesn’t get better than the KDL65W950b in terms of big screen gaming and quality picture coming together

The 4K is important only because of Battlegrounds and my recent Xbox one X purchase.

[Bahn Yuki]

As someone who owns the TCL 55P605($599) and an LG OLED65C7($2500) for retro gaming, the TCL is a better buy. It's 10" smaller and won't have the amazing contrast but it has less input delay(14ms) and the OSSC is fully compatible in all modes. The LG OLED while having the better picture, has worse input delay(21ms) and has some issues with the OSSC, but overall much better than the Vizio the OP owned. The Vizio could handle the OSSC 4X and 5X by going through the scaler which raises input delay to around 43ms!

Aside from the picture being much better on the OLED, you do get better motion handling and for the PC players out there, the LG does support 1080p/120hz mode. Still for just retrogaming it's not worth 5X the price especially when you bring up the risks of image retention/burn in. Both sets support HDR10 and more importantly Dolby Vision.

As for gaming projectors, I used to own an EPSON which was nice for input delay but just wouldn't get bright enough. My current projector(JVC RS400) is well over 100ms and makes gaming unplayable. Due to the lifespans of the bulbs and how the huge screen(my image is 178") I find that gaming on the projector is simply too much for my sense. Turning my head isn't ideal, then again you can zoom out and it might make the image brighter.

[tjstogy]

Sony has always made better TV's than Samsung. Not sure how the Samsung TV fad even started TBH...

[Hoagtech]

The Nvidia BFGD 65” looks like it will be a serious contender



I still haven’t been able to decide yet but am switching options in my head constantly.

I am stuck on the original recommendation X900E but I really like my current Sony IPS panel and the VA loses color quickly on angles

I also liked the pixel structure of my IPS panel. It’s the first time I put my eyeballs all the way up to the screen and was satisfied by seeing where the colors and shades of the pixels landed, not having to worry about bleeding out too thin into the next row.

I am hoping for a similar experience from X900E

[Xyga]

You can trust nVidia for ridiculous prices though. What's interesting is that we've never got displays larger than 40" or so with controllable overdrive and purposedly low lag.
That in itself is already a welcome progress.
Now let's see what the reviews will tell, everyone's focused on HDR (annoying) but what about the useability of 120Hz and do we get ULMB? How'll be the scaling and colors if you use non-4K non HDR stuff (weak console or pc) and don't give a crap about the integrated Shield? And what about the OSSC lol?
It'd be tempting for nVidia and AUO to just sell a luxury features package product and neglect many things to save cost.

Regarding the X900E, coming from an IPS your experience with a VA will be quite different, much closer to the Vizio M80 of course.