Why are shmups bigger in Japan?

[captain ahar]

I don't know what it is, but every person that has visited my Arcade (lol) doesn't give Ketsui / DOJ or whatever shooter I have in there a second glance. It is set to FREE PLAY and no one even gives it a try. On the other hand, everyone will play 3rd Strike.

someone has an opportunity to play ketsui and doesn't take it... that's a sin.

... and man, my desire for ketsui has become the stuff of legends...

[Blade]

There's one thing that I always thought about. I would like to hear other people opinions on that, as I don't know many american people who also play games.

But I always felt that, in America (And in west in general), people don't want to play challenging games. They don't like the feel of "losing". They always want to win. That's why games developed for the western market are usually easy but long. This way you spend like 50 hours in a game, and you WILL beat it. So you have a sense of acomplising something (After all, you spent a lot of time in the game), but none of that was actually difficulty to do.

I find really amusing how people can easily answer how long it takes to beat a game like Rainbow Six, Doom or Splinter Cell, while if someone asks me how long it takes to beat Dodonpachi, the answer will be "It depends of your skill... maybe you will never beat it".

If you compare western games with eastern games, you can easily notice that.

And I think that's play a big part on about why shmups aren't popular in the west. They are short and hard , the opposite of what american people like to play. They feel frustrated because they keep on losing and losing and losing and losing OR frustrated because the game was too short (I.E. credit-feed ).

I've seen this. I cant understand why it happens, but most of my friends feel frustrated when playing shmups (Or Winning Eleven against me ) because they just keep on losing, losing and losing, without any hope of "victory".

You know, I never thought about it in those terms. And when you think about it philosophically, is it Japan's way of saying "We may lose alot, but we try hard till we win"? Is this something left over from WWII or something. O.o

The idea that Americans get arrogant and gloat over winning after a long easy game session versus Japanese people playing short but difficult games...man, that makes me feel like I am something of a dishonorable gamer. Like I'm not worthy to play certain games because I lack the discipline or something.

"You need more training, Grasshopper."

[elvis]

Someone in this thread said that Japanese gamers talk to each other a lot in the arcades. This isn't true. I've spent a lot of time in arcades in the last year or so, and I've never seen strangers talk to each other. For example, this guy might be playing DOJ and kicking ass, and there might be 4 others watching him, but when he's done he just gets up and leaves. No one congratulates him, no one asks any questions--the people watching don't even make any sounds or gestures of surprise when they see something amazing on-screen.

Or, you know, there used to be huge lines of people waiting to play Espgaluda II on weekends, and they would all sit there and silently stare at the screen for hours, without ever exchaning a word with the people standing next to them. It's all quite sad really. I pity them.

From my very short stint in Japan, I have to agree whole heartedly. There seems to be very little social interaction in those sorts of environments. Not even a "good game mate" type comment for great players. I know I got some strange looks after congratulating a good player on a game well played until I just ended up doing the same thing and totally ignoring fellow players to "fit in".

The idea that Americans get arrogant and gloat over winning after a long easy game session versus Japanese people playing short but difficult games...

Hence why everyone is sick and tired of playing games online against Americans. Win or lose, the amount of virtual high-fiving that goes on after a match is just rediculous.

[poieo]

Agreed about name recognition, however, Americans must be much more 3D crazy then Japanese-look at how many shmups were released on the Saturn in America, compared to Japan. Most people over here just seem to think, with a few exceptions, that if it's not 2D, it's rubbish. People can keep on blaming SCEA all they want; the bottom line is supply and demand-SCEA, like any other business has to be concerned with this, and if there isn't much of a demand for shmups over here, then why would they allow for the release of more then a few more over here? The simple fact of the matter is that there is much more of a demand for 3D games over here then there is for 2D games.

God knows what the fuck you're smoking. People keep blaming SCEA because it really is their fault. You comprise the entirety of the contingent that, for some retarded reason, doesn't believe the uphill battle it is to get Sony to OK a 2D game. The "simple fact of the matter" is that people can't really show demand for something that isn't even offered to them most of the time.

By the by, look into getting a job at a game publisher. You're an exact match for the kind of clueless armchair businessman that's currently driving the industry into a ditch.

Hence why everyone is sick and tired of playing games online against Americans. Win or lose, the amount of virtual high-fiving that goes on after a match is just rediculous.

Hey, yeah. Kind of like how everyone is sick and tired of dealing with Aussies due to the fact that your nationality pretty much dooms you to be lazy and invariably moronic.

[elvis]

Hey, yeah. Kind of like how everyone is sick and tired of dealing with Aussies due to the fact that your nationality pretty much dooms you to be lazy and invariably moronic.

Haha... looks like I touched a nerve.

*Elvis high fives himself*

[neorichieb1971]

Aren't alot of games in Japan ridiculously easy and made harder for the US markets. I at least felt this was true for the Resident evil and Metal gear games.

[GaijinPunch]

This isn't true. I've spent a lot of time in arcades in the last year or so, and I've never seen strangers talk to each other.

-I met a load of people (20 at least) by playing Virtua Fighter 4 in arcades. Of course, by conversations after playing.
-I had a couple of kids actually clap for me when I got to 5-2 on ESPGaluda ages ago
-A guy waiting behind me on my last trip at the 50yen arcade talked to me when I was done (only got to Seseri)
-By reading certain blogs (Zuho's for one) you can see that many people make friends by going to the same game centers over and over.

Japanese are genetically dispositioned to ignore each other, but for some reason, the planets come into alignment a bit in the game centers. I'm sure a lot less than foreigners would.

[icycalm]

Well, I guess the exceptions prove the rule. I swear to god I've never seen strangers talk to each other in game centers. Maybe once or twice during location tests, and even then, I bet they weren't even strangers--they probably went there together.

[neorichieb1971]

Anyone that can 1cc a Cave game probably has anti-social characteristics.

Why would anyone practice that much alone?

[sven666]

I don't know what it is, but every person that has visited my Arcade (lol) doesn't give Ketsui / DOJ or whatever shooter I have in there a second glance. It is set to FREE PLAY and no one even gives it a try. On the other hand, everyone will play 3rd Strike.

It boggles my mind, because before coming over they tell me that they like Strikers 1945 (why is it always Strikers?) and games "like that".

If anything I don't think they are very appealing (come on CAVE, make a fucking attract mode), and are too intimidating to newcomers.

quoted for the truth, only one that plays ketsui or DOJ in my arcade is me

gigawing, progear and DDP2 get some play tho.. but only a few credits by the casual gamer, no-one really makes an effort.

shmups are HUGELEY outdone by the likes of DDR, bemani, popnmusic, SF3 3S and such which are also hard as hell (especially popn music latter remixes) but for some reason that game doesnt discourage at all???

[Twiddle]

I don't know what it is, but every person that has visited my Arcade (lol) doesn't give Ketsui / DOJ or whatever shooter I have in there a second glance. It is set to FREE PLAY and no one even gives it a try. On the other hand, everyone will play 3rd Strike.

It boggles my mind, because before coming over they tell me that they like Strikers 1945 (why is it always Strikers?) and games "like that".

If anything I don't think they are very appealing (come on CAVE, make a fucking attract mode), and are too intimidating to newcomers.

quoted for the truth, only one that plays ketsui or DOJ in my arcade is me

gigawing, progear and DDP2 get some play tho.. but only a few credits by the casual gamer, no-one really makes an effort.

shmups are HUGELEY outdone by the likes of DDR, bemani, popnmusic, SF3 3S and such which are also hard as hell (especially popn music latter remixes) but for some reason that game doesnt discourage at all???

There's something about dying in one hit 3 times that puts off most western gamers.

Try putting up a Radirgy or Chaos Field setup and see how they like those.

[PlasmaDancer]

Could the shmup's (relative) popularity be a result of the prevalence of score/stat-based games in Japan? Having a batch of numbers to verify your ability/progress has been a staple in RPGs, beat 'em ups and shmups for years, and even modern genres include combo 'counters' and such like, or ranking systems at the end of a stage (from titles as varied as Otogi and OutRun 2). Just an idea, mind you, I haven't done much (ie. any) research into this before posting, but games in Japan continue to use score/rank/level as a mark of progress to a greater extent than we see in 'The West', I'd suggest.

Just look at the compulsory quest for ever-larger numbers that is the modern RPG, a genre that deserves the title 'mainstream' more than any other in Japan. Games that involve number-chasing (in whatever form) are far more acceptable/prevalent than here, and as one of the purest forms of the score/numbers based genres, the shmup continues to exist for this very reason. Perhaps?

[DEL]

To be brief, I agree with the comments by Rando, Valgar and icycalm.

Rando wrote that shoot'em ups are 'niche' = very true, they always have been. For instance there have never been more than 10 hardcore arcade shooter players in the London arcades over the last 20 years. 6 of them are still around. - That's VERY niche!
So...it doesn't surprise me one bit that Valgar wrote that no-one plays Ketsui etc. in his arcade, even on freeplay .
My findings have been the same in Casino arcade:- Over the last year, ill6 and I have installed 6 shooter PCBs and they only attract 'curiosity cash'.
In contrast, I helped arrange the purchase of Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection for the London arcade VS Players and that 1 beat'em up has packed the arcade out every night since installation!

icycalm's comments about Japanese arcade players almost never talking to one another must be a culture issue. The London arcade players are sociable on the whole.

The overall Topic of 2Dshooter popularity in Japan as against the West can be partly apportioned to the fact that western developers want to push and sell 'their own stuff' ie. pseudo 3D Grand Theft Autos etc...
They have been successful at brainwashing the general public in that respect.


Regs, DEL

[captain ahar]

My findings have been the same in Casino arcade:- Over the last year, ill6 and I have installed 6 shooter PCBs and they only attract 'curiosity cash'.

god, if i was in the area, you'd be rich. school, couple credits at lunch, back to school, couple credits before going home, couple credits before going to work... every day.

[DC906270]

cheap joke, maybe it is not that the shmups are bigger, but that the japanese are smaller

[WarCheese]

Hello fellow shmuppers:

I agree with most of the things that have been said in this thread. I like to add one more thing though. The reason why shmups are getting less popular could be because of "us". Let me explain.

Taking myself as an example, I have been playing shmups ever since the first Salamander came out for NES. As time went by, my skill improved. As a result, I am able to finish shmups at a faster and faster pace. I also noticed that one shmup, which may a decent challenge for new comers, does not hold my attention for long anymore. Presumably, to keep the interest of us shmuppers with countless sortee, the industry gravitates toward harder and harder shmups. As a result, new comers no longer find shmups accessible. With no new blood, the genre withers...

The main cause of the problem is this: shmups rely on gameplay to sell. Graphics and stories are secondary. As such, the industry has to change the gameplay (i.e. difficulty) in order to remain in the business. As a close parallel, 4X (exploration, expansion, exploitation, extermination)civilization-type games follow the same trend. Most of the 4X genre are maintained by gamers who have been playing since the beginning (remember 386?). As time went by, new 4X games became more and more complicated, adding complexity and making games less assessible to new gamers. As a result, 4X games are declining. It has been a long while since we saw any new 4X games because there are only small number of new players. However, sequel sells quite well since the market (i.e. old gamers) still exist.

Other genres, such as platform games and RPG, can rely on story and graphics to sell; it is therefore not as vulnerable to ... "gameplay aging" as shmups.

In conclusion, partially due to "us", shmups are not popular in NA. Now, do you feel influencial? :)

Cheers.

WarCheese

P.S.> I am the only one who plays DOJ at the arcade near my apartment. Yes, I consider myself jaded...

[Twiddle]

In conclusion, partially due to "us", shmups are not popular in NA. Now, do you feel influencial?

Not really. It has more to do with what most people expect in a game nowadays (90+% artifically increased play time, vapid time>skill play mechanics that ultimately wane player skill).

[JBC]

Phoenix was one of my favorite games on Atari 2600 when i was little... i used to play that, Defender, Centipede, Yar's Revenge, Berzerk, and some cool pinball game all the time.

[WarCheese]

[quote="Twiddle"][quote="WarCheese"]In conclusion, partially due to "us", shmups are not popular in NA. Now, do you feel influencial? :)[/quote]
Not really. It has more to do with what most people expect in a game nowadays (90+% artifically increased play time, vapid time>skill play mechanics that ultimately wane player skill).[/quote]

Hello Twiddle:

Of the people I know, they are individuals who make choices based on their preferences and their environment. I have never met anyone who refuses to play shmups simply because it's not the norm. Everyone I know would at least give DOJ one try. Most do not give it second try after dying in the first 30 secs...

In short, I disagree that people are simple-minded and would play what the industry tells them to play. Maybe I am just blessed with friends who have brains.

WarCheese

[elvis]

In short, I disagree that people are simple-minded and would play what the industry tells them to play. Maybe I am just blessed with friends who have brains.

You make the mistake of comparing a group of your like-minded peers and considering them the norm. I did the same originally, and it shocked me when I found out the truth.

Step outside the circle and have a look at the "average" gamer. Whether it be on a mainsteam gaming forum or just hanging around your local console games store. The average gamer *IS* mindless, and the average gamer *WILL* do stupid things like buy a game that has the biggest display stand in the store, or has the flashiest graphics on the cover regardless if they've heard of the game's title or even seen a review before in their life.

Sad but true. Not that it matters. Shmups won't die. Fringe companies will always exist either in commercial form or in doujin form, and we'll always get our fix somewhere.

[GaijinPunch]

The average gamer *IS* mindless,

Yes, gamers are people, and people are very stupid.

[it290]

I tend to disagree. I have several friends who play games, but out of those, I would only consider one of them to be a 'hardcore gamer'. The rest of them don't play shmups very often, but when I show them new shooters, they tend to enjoy them and even desire to purchase them- but they're unable to because they don't know jack about importing games and to them it's not worth the hassle. If these games were widely available on store shelves, they would no doubt buy them. Of course, these people are all in my age group (I'm 25), so they may be more into oldschool gameplay than teenagers and such... but I don't know how significant that is, since I think I'm about the median age of the gaming demographic these days. Certainly most people I know who have jobs and adult responsibilities tend to prefer games that don't require a huge time investment to be enjoyed.

[elvis]

Of course, these people are all in my age group (I'm 25), so they may be more into oldschool gameplay than teenagers and such... but I don't know how significant that is, since I think I'm about the median age of the gaming demographic these days.

From my own experiences in my location, the sheer bulk of gamers are teens and even pre-teens (and with that, their parents who are the clueless money spenders evey christmas). That in itself pushes the marketability (read: gullibility) factor right through the roof.

Here in Australia at least it seems the 25+ generation are mostly PC gamers, although with the release of the XBox 360 in the last few days here (yes, you heard right, that's how long we wait to get consoles and then pay 130% what everyone else does) is proving the console market isn't dead for the 25 and overs.

[it290]

Actually, according to this, the average gamer (in the US only) is 30 (!). I doubt Australia is too different in that regard. Of course, this includes PC games and things like web based games and cellphone titles.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php

[elvis]

http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php

TOP 10 INDUSTRY FACTS

Without trying to sound like a sceptical old fart, these aren't facts. They are statistics. Statistics are based on partial samples, and aren't accurate.

I'm not trying to say they aren't indicative, but just that they shouldn't be taken as gospel.

[Ko.oS]

Im too tired to elaborate on this, so ill make it quick. and dirty.

Aren't alot of games in Japan ridiculously easy and made harder for the US markets. I at least felt this was true for the Resident evil and Metal gear games.

fizz (the jp guy from the old board) once said thats partly due to the fact that in the states you can rent games, so jp devs make them harder, else kids would return them too quickly. he used the genny contra as an example (no life bars). this may simplify things a bit, but it still makes sense.

regarding jp shmuppers being anti-social. icy, what gamecenters have you been to? big or small ones? ive been told that many players practice in small centers (making friends along the way), then go to the big ones (like hey) to show off. there, interaction with other individuals is obviously thinner. (big place = more strangers). maybe the guy who said that was full of bull, though, who knows.

yea, post count rising..

[Twiddle]

In conclusion, partially due to "us", shmups are not popular in NA. Now, do you feel influencial?

Not really. It has more to do with what most people expect in a game nowadays (90+% artifically increased play time, vapid time>skill play mechanics that ultimately wane player skill).

Hello Twiddle:

Of the people I know, they are individuals who make choices based on their preferences and their environment. I have never met anyone who refuses to play shmups simply because it's not the norm. Everyone I know would at least give DOJ one try. Most do not give it second try after dying in the first 30 secs...

In short, I disagree that people are simple-minded and would play what the industry tells them to play. Maybe I am just blessed with friends who have brains.

WarCheese

You are. Most people around me would rather watch numbers other than score go up in World of Warcraft or Everquest or whatever grindy piece of shit you can name with gameplay that doesn't go much deeper than "right click monster, wait till it falls over"

[Valgar]

elvis is right. Personally, when I was young, I used to buy games based on the box art. Stuff like that sells, and I will NEVER understand why there is such shitty box art used in the US.

[GaijinPunch]

regarding jp shmuppers being anti-social. icy, what gamecenters have you been to? big or small ones? ive been told that many players practice in small centers (making friends along the way), then go to the big ones (like hey) to show off. there, interaction with other individuals is obviously thinner.

They do. If you base all your opinions on trips to huge arcades like Hey!, then of course you'll think nobody talks to each other. I know crews of people that met at small game centers.

[Ko.oS]

^ that's cool, you and me are more or less on the same page then.

anyway, if you guys want to turn non-fans into semi-fans, you gotta show them gentler games than ketsui. i'd suggest gigawing2 (rechargable shield) or shiki2 (lots of crap on screen, but its slow). batsugun special version works a charm too. HEY YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE BULLETS!!1!

hehe.