Is ESPRade the forgotten Cave underdog?

[Bananamatic]

I would have liked it if it eventually didn't degenerate into boss milking
if any game makes you lose score because it's boring and tedious, not because it's hard, it's not a good game for scoring

[Some-Mist]

Progear may take that spot any day for me, but that's just, like, my opinion.

Yikes

The rushes of gold are very satisfying, though surely not as satisfying as Espgaluda Arrange.

Speaking of satisfying scoring systems, progear gem streaming is quite possibly the most satisfying mechanic for me.

Esprade is cool and even one of the first pcbs I owned, but it was also one of the only few I've let go :O

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't see how Esprade would be, in any way, the worst of the old cave games. Feveron, Progear, Donpachi may take that spot any day for me, but that's just, like, my opinion.

*Huff* Consider yourself my eternal enemy!

(Feveron is my favorite Cave game and one of my top 10 stg)

[Plasmo]

I don't see how Esprade would be, in any way, the worst of the old cave games. Feveron, Progear, Donpachi may take that spot any day for me, but that's just, like, my opinion.

Esprade is by far my least favourite. Scoring is broken and artstyle is average at best. On the other hand, Donpachi, Feveron and Progear all have very fine scoring systems and are godlike games imo.

How is it even possible to not like Feveron? That game's on fire.

[ave]

I would have liked it if it eventually didn't degenerate into boss milking
if any game makes you lose score because it's boring and tedious, not because it's hard, it's not a good game for scoring

You can criticize Esprade for it, I fully agree that it's a flaw and does not make the game more fun. That being said, it's not mandatory unless we are talking serious competitive playing... even the highest scores in this forum (below 25-30mil) can be reached without considerable milking. Milking all bosses intensively will generate an additional ~10+ million, which is only around 25% of the world record score. By the time you can finish the game without losing a single life and getting everything with max multiplier, you are already among the best players in the world even without milking the bosses.

@Some-Mist, Squire, Plasmo
Seems like I tapped into a beehive by talking crap about Fever-On, Cave pun intended
I actually paid a lot of money for the Feveron PCB and still own it, I think the artstyle and pace of the game is fantastic. Still, it has a little bit of an unpolished flair about it which makes it feel "cheap"..? Maybe not the right word, but style and intensity just isn't the same level as Dodonpachi, Esprade, Guwange, even Progear to me. When I say Fever-On is Cave's "worst" game, I really mean that it's my least favourite among my favourites.

[Square_Air]

I enjoy going through Esprade for survival, but scoring is a̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶n̶o̶ questionable. Clover-TAC spends over 5 minutes milking the stage 1 boss alone. While I still think other elements make it stand up pretty well, having such a lame oversight really kills the games longevity. Dangun Feveron on the the other hand has an absolutely delicious scoring system that enhances the experience instead of hindering it. While you're entitled to your opinion, I can't understand why you find Dangun less intense than the other games you have listed. I think dangun's focus on very fast movement and item collection coupled with its dodging make it one of the most intense STGs to play for score, but that's just my two cents.

The Dangun defense force is real.

EDIT: I do agree with you on the scoring system still being pretty interesting though.

[Sumez]

If it weren't for the milking, I'd say Esprade is actually one of Cave's better scoring systems. No horrendous amounts of chaining, plenty of room to improvise, and natural incentives for point blanking.

Guwange is a million times more painful, and also has ages of boss milk.

[Some-Mist]

@Some-Mist, Squire, Plasmo
Seems like I tapped into a beehive by talking crap about Fever-On, Cave pun intended

my post is mainly about progear

But I'll gladly be lumped in with the feveron defense force - it's one of the pcbs I've kept over the years since I still genuinely enjoy playing it (even with a kickass ps4 port available)

[ave]

If it weren't for the milking, I'd say Esprade is actually one of Cave's better scoring systems. No horrendous amounts of chaining, plenty of room to improvise, and natural incentives for point blanking.

Guwange is a million times more painful, and also has ages of boss milk.

Thanks... I honestly don't understand how one can call Esprade's system broken and not mention Guwange. That game requires you to hold your gold chain throughout the entire game and there's tons of milking for gold due to destructible bullets at several of the bosses... also, counterstop in a Cave game? That's what I'd call broken.

Maybe I need to give it another go, but Guwange and Progear may be the hardest Cave games for me to really like from a gameplay-perspective.

@Square_Air
Clover-Tac's replay is really maximizing everything in an effort to get a true world record. He spends around 5min at the stage 1 boss, true, and I only spend around 2. All together, he gets around 1.5m from the boss, I get 1.1-1.3m. There's no real incentive unless you try to get those last few millions that would help get you on true world class level. I think it shouldn't be any reason to not like the game, because you can get really competitive even without milking at all... it's only the top 1% that requires you to milk, and TAC is being borderline ridiculous in his replay

[Some-Mist]

Maybe I need to give it another go, but Guwange and Progear may be the hardest Cave games for me to really like from a gameplay-perspective.

how so? progear's bullet cancelling isn't difficult to grasp, it's very fun, and it makes 1-sissy runs much easier. It definitely isn't as obtuse of a system as, say espgaluda II. the bosses are interesting / have destroyable parts for scoring / can't be exploited for milking other than taking out the destroyable parts on the few bosses that have them. the 1-UP is very easy to trigger. If you dive into scoring, much like esprade, you can easily improvise your own runs. and obviously gem streaming enemies is so gratifying. I was also shown an extremely difficult advanced scoring strategy that isn't often utilized where you can leave a single gem on screen and create scoring chains which means there's still a lot of room for improvement even for the current high scorers. as far as the community goes, it's still an active game with potential for new WRs.

on the downside, the music is kind of bland, the loop requirements + the loop are a bit much, the vast amount of your score is generated from the 2nd loop, and dying/bombing goes against your overall gem counter,which affects your score, but I would say it's far from cave's worst game even from a non-scoring perspective.

[CBM]

Once you get the hang of Progear's gem-vacuuming mechanism it turns SO satisfying every time you actually manage to get it going. (I'm decades away from playing WR-level though, so this might be just silly me enjoying myself)

[Shepardus]

Guwange and Progear are both very heavy on bullet cancelling, on a more systemic level than the simple "certain enemies cancel all the bullets" you see in games like Mushihimesama. Not everybody likes that, but I very much do, as not only is it satisfying to get big cancels, but it also gives purpose to all those bullets. It does take some getting used to, though - you have to understand the rules of the cancels rather than just pick it up and try to dodge stuff like you can do with many other shmups. Guwange also has the whole shikigami system to get used to.

As for Esp Ra.De, I don't think it's bad but I keep forgetting about it because it's not quite remarkable enough in any single aspect to stand out, and nobody else mentions it.

[Some-Mist]

Once you get the hang of Progear's gem-vacuuming mechanism it turns SO satisfying every time you actually manage to get it going. (I'm decades away from playing WR-level though, so this might be just silly me enjoying myself)

but even triggering it is super beneficial since it quickly increases your score and score extends are plentiful (every 4mil after your first 3mil score extend). at least for me, triggering the stage 1 gem streams allow me to get my first 3k extend midway into stage 2, whereas some of the top players can trigger it in the first stage.
there are some streaming sections that are still way too difficult for me to do - like the circle pattern before the last screen on stage 5, but I chalk part of that up to rivet being a bit difficult to control.

with scoring extremely well, you can get up to 9 live stock before the end of the first loop, but even without scoring well it's hard not to get at least 2-3 extra lives (7-11mil), plus the 1UP, before the 5th stage boss if you know the game for survival. it's very forgiving in that aspect and just requires you to learn how to herd bullets on top of the enemies you're destroying.

[Sumez]

I completely get why some people don't like Progear. I have a hard time clicking with it myself, but I love pretty much every aspect of it on a more superficial level, and the scoring/cancelling system is really great.

[Vludi]

The best thing about Esp Rade is the boss theme.

[M.Knight]

The best thing about Esp Rade is the boss theme.

I really like this theme as well! It is the most memorable track in ESP Ra.De.'s OST. The music in general is well made but the boss track in particular really matches the fights' intensity. The visuals are also really stylish I think, most notably thanks to the urban theme. Shmups that look like that their events could happen near my place is appealing to me.

I am not sure if this is a game that's really forgotten, but the very long boss milking can defintely turn people away from chasing hi-scores, thus limiting the potential discussion from players who are investing their time in it. It is a shame CAVE kept that boss milking in the game despite being aware of it, as the scoring system otherwise is pretty fun and infuses a pleasant sense of rhythm during the stages, as you focus the bubble shots on a big ennemy, trigger the x16 multiplier and destroy as many smaller enemies when it lasts, only to repeat that again on the next big enemy.

The hitbox feels a bit weird though. I have no idea if it is its location on the sprites or the hit detection but something feels off about collisions in this game. I never feel it was 100% my fault and often find myself surprised at getting hit by something I really thought would have avoided.

[Shepardus]

The hitbox feels a bit weird though. I have no idea if it is its location on the sprites or the hit detection but something feels off about collisions in this game. I never feel it was 100% my fault and often find myself surprised at getting hit by something I really thought would have avoided.

The hitbox is positioned oddly, I believe it's not centered on the sprite, in the middle of the character's back like it is in most other shmups with humanoid characters. I remember it being somewhere around the neck or something.

[Sumez]

Yeah there's a thread here dedicated to that: viewtopic.php?t=6133

[el_rika]

Yeah, the hitbox is very weirdly placed and it actually makes a difference when coming from another Cave game. Makes me avoid micro dodging as much as possible.

[finisherr]

Newsflash, shooters aren't just about playing for score. That is just one characteristic of the game.

[Some-Mist]

Newsflash, shooters aren't just about playing for score. That is just one characteristic of the game.

but it definitely helps by adding more replayability to a title.

after you achieve a 1CC, do you just go back and clear the game over and over again with no regard to your score?

[ave]

The hitbox feels a bit weird though. I have no idea if it is its location on the sprites or the hit detection but something feels off about collisions in this game. I never feel it was 100% my fault and often find myself surprised at getting hit by something I really thought would have avoided.

The hitbox is positioned oddly, I believe it's not centered on the sprite, in the middle of the character's back like it is in most other shmups with humanoid characters. I remember it being somewhere around the neck or something.

ESPRa.De's hitbox is quite strange. I had the same problem (getting hit without feeling like I did something wrong) and after some research, I found that for Irori the hitbox is actually her patch of brown hair on the back. Now that I know, I feel very confident dodging bullets because it's really just her hair that can get it. You have to focus just on her hair and try to ignore her sideways movements and all that, but once you do, it's fine.

[finisherr]

Newsflash, shooters aren't just about playing for score. That is just one characteristic of the game.

but it definitely helps by adding more replayability to a title.

after you achieve a 1CC, do you just go back and clear the game over and over again with no regard to your score?

Sure. Sometimes I have other goals like NMNB up to a certain stage. By that point I'm on to try my hand at another game. I never really played a game for score as the goal. In fact, I tried once with Ketsui but it wasn't fun anymore. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but I think plenty of players have fun playing for survival too so it's a bad to call a game "trash" because the scoring system is less than perfect, especially when so many things ARE good.

[Some-Mist]

Newsflash, shooters aren't just about playing for score. That is just one characteristic of the game.

but it definitely helps by adding more replayability to a title.

after you achieve a 1CC, do you just go back and clear the game over and over again with no regard to your score?

Sure. Sometimes I have other goals like NMNB up to a certain stage. By that point I'm on to try my hand at another game. I never really played a game for score as the goal. In fact, I tried once with Ketsui but it wasn't fun anymore. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but I think plenty of players have fun playing for survival too so it's a bad to call a game "trash" because the scoring system is less than perfect, especially when so many things ARE good.

If you like an arcade game enough to spend a good chunk of your gaming time on it, a bad scoring system can be a potential issue. Scoring most definitely can allow you to see the game from a different perspective. In mushihimesama futari black label original it can even alter how the game acts as you start jacking up the speed beyond psikyo level bullet speeds due to your overall counter. Sure, I can boot up black label original any time and get an easy clear, but that's no longer as exhilarating as it was trying to beat the game for the first time. Now going for the clear while simultaneously trying to keep myself occupied with scoring is a blast.

But I get it. If you don't spend enough time with the games and you jump around from title to title it's not going to affect you. It's perfectly fine to not want to add a competitive aspect to these games and rather enjoy them on a survival level.
Another thing to consider is, since ketsui scoring ruined the fun factor for you, that could mean ketsui isn't as good as you first considered. I think the proximity chip scoring in ketsui is perfectly fine, and I even enjoy other proximity based games like crimzon clover with it's lock on proximity scoring, and psyvariar with it's grazing. I get that by removing the scoring aspect you have more fun with it. But even when playing for survival and going for the 1CC, you still have to interact with and somewhat grasp scoring to aid you in gaining extends. I get that you (and probably the majority of people here) wouldn't have to interact with the game on a level where boss milking would play any role, so that isn't something you'd even have to consider. But that doesn't mean there aren't people out that that wouldn't have to consider it when choosing it as a title they want to dedicate their time on.

Spoiler

A good example of a scoring system ruining a game for me is dodonpachi daiounjou *flame shield raised*. I had the same experience where I had a lot of fun from a survival aspect, but as I started delving into the scoring system, I quickly realized that it wasn't my type of game. I like more improvisational scoring where I can still pull points on the fly instead of creating rigid chaining paths. I even disliked the scoring system more than ikaruga's 3x chaining. I decided if I were to play either of those games in the future, it would be more on a casual level because they're not my cup of tea otherwise. But I most definitely still play progear, futari, and pork frequently enough where scoring adds another dimension to the gameplay.

You're going to get some extreme opinions here like you would with any hobbyist forum. And I think it's fine for those who spend enough time with the games to judge it by its scoring system. Especially if they're likely the ones going to be sinking enough time into it to understand the intricacies of how the game works. Regardless of your "newsflash", a lot of people here are going to be playing their favorite games just-for-score because after clearing it that's the biggest incentive to continue playing it.

[Xyga]

It's perfectly fine to not want to add a competitive aspect to these games and rather enjoy them on a survival level.

...

You're going to get some extreme opinions here

[Shepardus]

What do people actually like about ESP Ra.De, besides apologizing for the boss milking?

[CloudyMusic]

What do people actually like about ESP Ra.De, besides apologizing for the boss milking?

The sprite work is great.

[Xyga]

Looks and sound great, cool to play, even the scoring is fun in its own way, if you don't give a crap about its flaws nor ranking in score boards there's good times to have with it.

[5pectre]

What do people actually like about ESP Ra.De, besides apologizing for the boss milking?

I like the graphics style and music. I think the scoring is addicting and clicks with me. Doing the charge shot and then taking out the enemy with regular shot and seing the screen fill up with x16 is satisfying to me.

On top of that I enjoy it because it's not super hard.

[Sumez]

Same. For all of those of us who aren't on a world champion level anyway, the boss milking doesn't matter. How many of the people who complain about the boss milking have actually been able to score on a level where that would make a difference anyway?

I get that it's a bad thing, but it doesn't make the game bad.