The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

[Sumez]

S3's is absurd if you don't have S&K locked on [it's set up so you have to do it with the drums, I've managed it only once in my life].
S&K/S3&K's is mildly inconvenient, requiring you to actually start the game to enter the code, although the code is pretty simple [l,l,l,r,r,r,u,u,u,start,A when on the MHZ pulleys or on the AIZ swinging vines].

... Sonic 3 / &Knucks lets you pick any stage you've already been to on your save... like a modern game

[mikejmoffitt]

S3's is absurd if you don't have S&K locked on [it's set up so you have to do it with the drums, I've managed it only once in my life].
S&K/S3&K's is mildly inconvenient, requiring you to actually start the game to enter the code, although the code is pretty simple [l,l,l,r,r,r,u,u,u,start,A when on the MHZ pulleys or on the AIZ swinging vines].

... Sonic 3 / &Knucks lets you pick any stage you've already been to on your save... like a modern game

In Sonic 3 this is only if you have beaten the game. Does S3&K change this behavior?

[Sumez]

That might be a requirement, I don't know. Not an important difference though. It's hard not to beat it.

[Vanguard]

I think Sonic was doomed from the moment they implemented the ring system. You can nearly always recover at least one ring before your mercy invincibility wears off, so you can get hit by every enemy a dozen times and not die. If you miss all of them, it's ok, you'll find more in two seconds. It's like if every coin in Mario was a mushroom. Even very high quality level designs (which Sonic's are not) would be undone by a system that so thoroughly ensures you have no reason to care about what happens. I really don't care for it.

There's some fun to be had in S3&K with exploring the levels to see the different paths or find the big rings, but even then, Super Mario World is a vastly better version of the exact same thing. It even has Yoshis that let you recover just like rings, except there are 1 or 2 in most levels instead of 100s in every level, and they still break the game.

[FinalBaton]

Not a huge Sonic fan myself but... the games must do something right if they appeal to a lot of people, no?

[drauch]

Went through El Viento for the first time tonight. Didn't realize this was Cthulhu mythos, so that was a nice surprise. Pretty fair and relatively easy up until the annoying BAT ALLEY last level, which is where my enjoyment started to drain until the final boss. Any way to deal with those bats without taking a large chunk of damage? Seems like the last powerup was the only efficient way of dealing, but with how long you've got to charge and how they seemingly spawn out of nowhere it seems like you've got to take a relative beating, even when sprinting through the level. My only complaint

[Xyga]

The Sonic games were perfectly tailored for the audience of their time, when gameplay and level design subtleties mattered considerably less than technical performance and style.
For that practically every kid but Nintendo-only and computer owners had tons of fun with Sonic games (at least until a more attractive/impressive game caught their attention)
Actually I don't know why there's still debate, of course we can't enjoy them today like we did back then, the 'wow' factor is long gone.

[BIL]

Went through El Viento for the first time tonight. Didn't realize this was Cthulhu mythos, so that was a nice surprise. Pretty fair and relatively easy up until the annoying BAT ALLEY last level, which is where my enjoyment started to drain until the final boss. Any way to deal with those bats without taking a large chunk of damage? Seems like the last powerup was the only efficient way of dealing, but with how long you've got to charge and how they seemingly spawn out of nowhere it seems like you've got to take a relative beating, even when sprinting through the level. My only complaint

I seem to remember figuring out how to deal with those annoying fuckers - out of sheer spite more than anything, since the big lifebar will let you get away with quite a few bumps. But it's been years... IIRC, that last spell was involved, along with a lot of crouch-dashing to keep vital space between Annette and the bats while it picked them off (or was that spell used on the battleship exterior's cannons? or maybe both! would need to revisit)

El Viento is my favourite MD Sonic, definitely. Fun speed mechanic, doesn't take itself too seriously, very explodey. I'll kinda always wish it starred a badass agile mech ala Wolfteam offshoot GAU's Ex-Ranza, or at least a Knight Saber (the tracking vulcan spell could totally be a shoulder-mounted cannon ala Predator). Waify magical girl in a crop top isn't the best avatar for the sometimes very spammy action, though I'm pretty sure you can actually avoid most damage-sponging with enough persistence and experimentation. I remember being impressed when a speedrunner tore through the dolphin ride without taking a scratch, by timing his charge shots right - up until then, I'd always run smack into a kraken, and the game would be all "eh no probs boss" as I bounced off its face like a dumbass (until the inevitable OBSCENELY CHUNKY GLORIOUS PIXELSPLOSION).

TANGENT: Incidentally I always associate EV with Alisia Dragoon, though where the former seems to cheerfully shrug off its flaws, the latter can really make the player eat the cost of its laggy controls (bullets hurt, at least on Hard difficulty). Continuing the scantily-clad female action protagonist sidescrolling for MD tangent (YEEE ), I would put Devil Hunter Yoko on the better end of this scale and Dahna: Megami Tanjou on the opposite. Couldn't deal with Dahna - friggin awesome Harryhausen panache early on, but after four increasingly cool concept stages, suddenly it turns into a meat n' potatoes sword action game and the floor caves in. It was clear towards the end the designers just weren't bothered. I don't mind getting smacked with the bad design stick, as long as you gimme the chance to confiscate said stick and jam it right up its erstwhile wielder's ass at some future date! :O Riding around on your ogre buddy's shoulders while he reduces enemy soldiers to bloody gristle is rad - taking mandatory hits that eat into your already low endgame damage sponge allowance ain't.

[null1024]

Man, I want to like El Viento, but that game feels super jank... like basically every other Wolfteam game.

That might be a requirement, I don't know. Not an important difference though. It's hard not to beat it.

It's only if you've beaten it.
mind you, S3 alone is ridiculously easy, being only the first half of a game, and S&K isn't terribly hard at all until literally the last two bosses

The Sonic games were perfectly tailored for the audience of their time, when gameplay and level design subtleties mattered considerably less than technical performance and style.
For that practically every kid but Nintendo-only and computer owners had tons of fun with Sonic games (at least until a more attractive/impressive game caught their attention)
Actually I don't know why there's still debate, of course we can't enjoy them today like we did back then, the 'wow' factor is long gone.

I still wouldn't say that. Stages are fairly big, Sonic's control is pretty good, and the graphics and sound are still some of the nicer on the machine. Never ridiculously technically impressive or full of hardware straining special effects, but all of them still make good use of the machine's hardware. Much better use of the MD palette than the vast majority of other stuff too.

I think Sonic was doomed from the moment they implemented the ring system. You can nearly always recover at least one ring before your mercy invincibility wears off, so you can get hit by every enemy a dozen times and not die. If you miss all of them, it's ok, you'll find more in two seconds. It's like if every coin in Mario was a mushroom. Even very high quality level designs (which Sonic's are not) would be undone by a system that so thoroughly ensures you have no reason to care about what happens. I really don't care for it.

There's some fun to be had in S3&K with exploring the levels to see the different paths or find the big rings, but even then, Super Mario World is a vastly better version of the exact same thing. It even has Yoshis that let you recover just like rings, except there are 1 or 2 in most levels instead of 100s in every level, and they still break the game.

The ring system... yeah, it's iffy. It's explicitly designed to make it so you don't just get whacked by something outta nowhere and just die, but it also makes it hard for the game to really challenge the player without throwing areas with instant death in, which later post-Genesis games ended up doing a bunch.
Would have been nice if Sega had thought of those ring drain tubes found in Dead Line in Sonic Rush earlier, where if you lost your rings near them, you couldn't pick them back up, and a lot of Sonic games past Sonic 1 seem entirely incapably of making stretches of level without rings [and S1 is pretty reluctant about it anyway].

Failing that, adding more score/time based goals [which the later 3D games do, but they don't have nearly the stage design quality] would help, so that the stage's lack of difficulty to clear doesn't matter so much. Anyone can make a lap around a race track, but doing it quickly is the important bit.

As an aside, you might actually like Sonic 1 on the SMS, which has more traditional platformer levels and you can't pick up lost rings. Pretty decent game overall.

[Xyga]

I still wouldn't say that. Stages are fairly big, Sonic's control is pretty good, and the graphics and sound are still some of the nicer on the machine. Never ridiculously technically impressive or full of hardware straining special effects, but all of them still make good use of the machine's hardware. Much better use of the MD palette than the vast majority of other stuff too.

Sure I don't question the mastery, all Sonic games are beautiful, play well and are overal very well crafted considering the limitations of the system.
All I'm saying is that's pretty much all they have left...and that's not enough to push me to replay them, fuck nostalgia.

Sure many old 16bit shmups are also lots of style over substance too, but at least you can't exactly wank around during a run, and they're shorter clears. In comparison IMHO lots of 'great' platformers have aged badly, when I think about it today the main reason why I played those back in the 90's was because many were tech showcases looking magical and hyped af by the press, nothing more.

The other day I dug up James Pond II, while a second zone title at the time and clearly not as refined as a Sonic, it's got more of the fundamental challenges of genre left in it to actually mean game for the player, even today.
The difficulty's badly distributed though, it's too long and some of the background music can lead to murder/suicide, but it's still got some flesh on it.

[FinalBaton]

BIL, did you play the 3rd game in the El Viento trilogy on the Mega CD?

It's an alright beltscrolling beat 'em up. The gameplay does a decent job and the presentation is spectacular, but there's a big caveat : the SFX are annoying to no end.


Speaking of Wolf Team on the Mega CD : Devastator is a good time, and I feel like you''ll enjoy this one (provided you haven't played it alredy).



Now I really want to give a shot to El Viento. Despite not being all around tight and not using "safe" design ideas, it at least seems "interesting". And it looks like some of the level design ideas they throw at you, actually stick.

[BIL]

Annette Again / Annette Futabi? Nope, haven't played it - to be honest Earnest Evans kinda scared me away, there's some things I just won't do.

Wolfteam are undeniably ragged overall, but I do have a soft spot for a few of their games. There's Viento which just about transcends its ropier aspects with sheer volume and pace, kinda punky. Granada has lots of neat mechanical ideas in a no-nonsense topdown seek/destroy format, which would be properly realised in Toshio Toyota's later opus Ex-Ranza... and although the Mega CD version suffers from brutal sprite dropout, Sol Feace is one of those gunmetal 16-bit space horis I'll always find a little time for, particularly when the OST is good.

Overall I find them harmlessly bumbling, moreso than outright negligent ala charlatans like Micronics (a "developer" near the top of the list of organisations I'm going to fucking retroactively annihilate once T-800s and affordable time travel hit the market). At the same time I'm not given to seeking out their stuff.

[EmperorIng]

Don't forget Arcus Odyssey, a pretty fun top-down/isometric dungeon-crawler/shooter hybrid a la Gauntlet - at least for some of the characters. But instead of archer or mage you can play as the whip lady and instead flail the FUCK out of every gritty-grungy looking enemy in the game. Fun!

[FinalBaton]

Annette Again / Annette Futabi? Nope, haven't played it - to be honest Earnest Evans kinda scared me away, there's some things I just won't do.

Wolfteam are undeniably ragged overall, but I do have a soft spot for a few of their games. There's Viento which just about transcends its ropier aspects with sheer volume and pace, kinda punky. Granada has lots of neat mechanical ideas in a no-nonsense topdown seek/destroy format, which would be properly realised in Toshio Toyota's later opus Ex-Ranza... and although the Mega CD version suffers from brutal sprite dropout, Sol Feace is one of those gunmetal 16-bit space horis I'll always find a little time for, particularly when the OST is good.

Overall I find them harmlessly bumbling, moreso than outright negligent ala charlatans like Micronics (a "developer" near the top of the list of organisations I'm going to fucking retroactively annihilate once T-800s and affordable time travel hit the market). At the same time I'm not given to seeking out their stuff.

Alright. Try Devastator sometime. Tight mecha action, with a dash attack and a melee weapon. It fun.

[drauch]

Annet Futatabi is such a weird game. I love the presentation, music, cut scenes, and generally how it plays, but the AI is out of this world bonkers. Every bad dude just shadow boxes, or randomly uppercuts. Most of the time when you start the first level this dude in a beret just uppercuts his fencing buddy immediately. At first I thought he was on my side because they both just sorta sat there, one occasionally charging, the other punching the air and then shoryukening. But nope! Just chillin'. And it's not like your token fat dude that charges across the screen, because there's a purpose in that, but these guys just start swinging right out the gate! Kinda hilarious, but at the same time frustrating because you just wait for that window and then just go slam 'em. They're just small fry, yeah, but at the same time it's like come 'on, dudes -_-

And Evans... Oh boy. I want to love it. I always tried to love it from afar. Yeah! Indiana Jones-type, killer tunes, whips, cutscenes! And of course the infamous 'physics' are just so nuts you kind of want to love them. But yeah. After my El Viento high last night I booted Evans up again to give it the ol' college try. Bounced within the first stage.

[drauch]

Spent some more time with Annet tonight. I really hate to say it, but I think it's a bit of a turd. More of an anime with the gameplay as an afterthought.

Annet herself moves alright and it feels competent in that department, but the rest is fairly pitiful. You spent a lot of time waiting for enemies to come back on screen--and I mean a lot. Sometimes thirty seconds or more. Most of the time I just used my 'bomb' because I was sick of waiting, but there's no real penalty to doing it in the first place. Like El Viento, you've got a magic bar that gradually builds up, and every time the bar passes it turns into a different weapon that generally does more damage. It's one of those Golden Axe style magic attacks that pretty much nukes the screen, and while it's theoretically finite, if you just walk around you'll eventually just build it back up, sometimes almost forcefully while you're waiting for the enemies to get back on the playing field.

And that's the main problem, because like I said initially the enemies just sit there and shadowbox or swing at nothing. Every enemy does this, like clockwork. Even the first half of the bosses have a single attack, which is just a swing of a claw or weapon. Wait for them to do it, then vert running kick five or so times and the fight is over. All the henchmen enemies are like this as well, and extremely predictable. Wait for them to attack, then give 'em a beating. They don't really come at you, but eventually kind of gravitate your way from their endless swinging and jumping and what-have-you. The hardest enemy in the game is oddly just a random robot that starts appearing early on. For some reason he has three attacks: a laser shot, a chainsaw arm, and this whirlwind attack. The whirlwind itself seems invulnerable, and it kind of comes at random. Sometimes he'll just sit there offscreen doing the chainsaw arm for thirty+ seconds; other times he'll sit there and spin indefinitely. But it doesn't really matter, because you've got almost infinite magic attacks to deal with him while you're waiting.

Health is plentiful, especially in the early stages. Almost every screen features some sort of statue or breakable object that holds an apple or soda for healing. I almost got a 1 life on my first run through, but it's kind of cruel if you get knocked down. The second to last stage changes it up a bit for the boss, and he trapped me in a corner. No wake-up delay whatsoever, so if you get knocked down in a corner you're basically done unless you can manage sprinting out in a super small window. No magic for the boss fights, which you don't need them for the earlier bosses, but it seems like in the situation where you finally need one you're out of a luck.

So yeah, I dunno. The music's damn good and I dig the cutscenes and all that, but not sure it's really deserving of much more than that.

[FinalBaton]

I agree that the enemy AI is quite weak. I still had some fun playing it though

[drauch]

Oh yeah, I think it's got some merits to warrant a playthrough, certainly. Anything from this era with anime cutscenes I'm a total sucker for, just can't really see myself revisiting like El Viento.

[BrianC]

Oh yeah, I think it's got some merits to warrant a playthrough, certainly. Anything from this era with anime cutscenes I'm a total sucker for, just can't really see myself revisiting like El Viento.

So the game isn't aptly named?

[BIL]

Don't forget Arcus Odyssey, a pretty fun top-down/isometric dungeon-crawler/shooter hybrid a la Gauntlet - at least for some of the characters. But instead of archer or mage you can play as the whip lady and instead flail the FUCK out of every gritty-grungy looking enemy in the game. Fun!

Still kinda regret passing up a mint copy of this years back - one I should revisit. I have an undeniable fondness for the way these Wolfteam games make my MD feel like a substitute Japanese PC (as opposed to a substitute Japanese arcade cab ).

Speaking of, holy fuck, I (still) really like El Viento. It actually reminds me more of an Ex-Ranza Zero than it did the last time around. There's the same distinct sense of each stage having its own particular mechanics and enemies, with crossover deliberately minimal. The last stage (BAT COUNTRY) plays somewhat like Ranza's stealth level, only it's in constant "ALART" state so if you're standing out in the open, you're gonna get bat-gangbanged!

Yeah drauch, the homing fire spell is definitely a big help here - but I was also pleasantly surprised that Annette is actually much faster than the bats (they can't catch up to even the basic run, let alone the crouch-dash), and the x3 boomerangs shred 'em wholesale provided you see them coming (or dash away first, if they get the drop on you). I'd mis-remembered them being totally impossible to outrun/escape, and taking multiple hits to destroy, creating a total clusterfuck. Finding a secluded alcove, charging the homing spell, then making a beeline for the next elevator or switch is the general idea, but in a pinch you can totally just dash away from and/or shoot the fuckers too.

The wind spell (third) is also really good at mowing through 'em, especially if you follow behind it. It's also a good quick escape if any manages to get in close for their annoying "rub all over you" bullshit. You can hit them through solid walls with the SPLOSION (fourth) spell, but it's not particularly worth it. Methodically zipping from A to B with the homing fire active is ideal. It likes to target bats located behind walls that a) it can't hit, and b) can't reach you - aggressively scrolling them offscreen will keep it focused on actual threats. I really like this stage! The total (afaik) lack of HP restores gives it a deadly endurance aspect, too, and sets up the simple but twitchy final boss nicely.

It was that fucken dolphin bit I was dreading revisiting, but as ropey as it is (framerate chugs at best... let the gliders gather and Dear Sweet Jesus), I was again pleasantly surprised - mowing through those irritating krakens is much simpler than I recalled. No frame-perfect timing involved, just keep all your ammunition onscreen (C for fireball, A for boomerangs, tap the former and spam the latter) as they scroll in, and they'll asplode before they can bump you off your ride into the drink. It's all very silly, but frankly I'll take a silly vehicle stage over a boring one. That's kind of this game's whole ethos, for me... no sidescrolling design landmark, but it's aware of its limitations and compensates appropriately, while dishing out ripping violence with a strong creative bent. It won't waste your motherfuckin time! I got enough landmarks anyway.

Deadly fucken serious

Spoiler

Falter and die

Spoiler

HEY KIDS IMA DOLPHIN, VROOM VROOM

Spoiler

[drauch]

Yeah, think my problem was probably charging out in the open, plus I kept forgetting I even had that dash! Never used it except in one of those factory areas where you've gotta use it to bypass the spikes. I charged through it, but didn't charge enough. Kinda changing my tune on that stage. At first I thought it was a nightmare, but it's quite exhilarating! Lou Diamond Phillips ain't got nothin' on these bats.

Man, seeing the dolphin gif makes me want to live it up again soon.

[Sumez]

The best part of El Viento is old-school Motoi Sakuraba:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzHOxyDw2Wg

[FinalBaton]

Man... is El Viento really that good?

I have always dismissed it cuz it looks janky and too ambitious on the level design ideas front, for it's own good.

But reading you guys, it looks like it's a great game! You are really excited aboot it!

[BIL]

Oh no, I definitely wouldn't describe it as great. It plays a little too messy overall, both in stage design and on the technical front (as said, there are bouts of absolutely farcical slowdown - st3 boss feels like Wolfteam discovering late-era CAVE danmaku and stealing it back to 1991, haha).

It's certainly not poor either, though. It compensates for those rough edges smartly - individual hits are never a big deal, just avoid the majority - allowing what might've been a jerky mess to instead keep a brisk, violent tempo. On that note, stuff tends to die quickly and spectacularly, feeding perfectly into the running shot mechanic. You can completely massacre and/or blitz through large swathes of the game with minimal practice.

And stage+boss design is overall clean enough that you soon enough won't be getting hit much, anyway. Even stuff that seems cynically spammy, like st5's gargoyles or the last stage's bats, can be taken down unscathed with good use of the moveset. It's a smarter game than the gigantic lifebar lets on, imo... they could've gotten away with half the size, though it's clear they were erring on the side of generosity.

I should say, there's a healthy margin in my books between great and mediocre, let alone great and trash. I'd rate it a solid "good" / three stars, with the caveat that it's a little weird, as opposed to solidly straightforward ala something like Kujaku Ou II. As for the excitement, you know I've a weakness for high-speed violence and I feel confident saying drauch isn't averse to the same.

[FinalBaton]

Gotcha thanks for this condensed mini-review

[drauch]

Yeahhhh man, speed and violence is all I need for a good ol' time . And babes usually equals instant winner in my book <3.

Ahhh, and speaking of Kujaku Ou II, it just now clicked that this is based on Peacock King. My experience is only cursory with Mystic Defender, so this is a pleasant surprise! I've seen the two Hong Kong Yuen Biao films based on the manga (the first one rules), but I've yet to check out the anime that got an English release years back. I think I'm gonna give Wolf Team a break and give this a fair shot tonight and pair it with the anime. DATE NIGHT!

[BrianC]

Yeahhhh man, speed, huge pixelated enemies, and explose is all I need for a good ol' time . And babes usually equals instant winner in my book <3.

fixed.

[drauch]

I'll take it!

[BIL]

Although some stuff like the blatant "zako upscaled to unholy proportions" kraken are... yeah (actually that whole segment is the game's most audaciously ragged), those SPLOSIONS are goddamn sexual. (especially as certain frames look like a generously buxom arse, if I do say so... ) I like how even tiny enemies - actually, scratch that - especially tiny enemies like st3 pirates (?) Go BURAOW like the devil's bubblewrap. So punky. Then you can steal all the bootleg booze outta the roof, drop it on those fatass beerglass chuckers, and blow them up EVEN WORSE. BABABABAOWWW

By comparison, Assault Suits Valken keeps 'em for special occasions, like putting your iron fist through the shielding of a space station's rocket boosters.

Spoiler

(like a good Urushihara dame she is saying PUT YOUR BIG METAL FIST IN MY WHITE HOT EXHAUST ;3 )

OURYAAA (it takes a masterful action game to make the SFC processor BUCKLING UNDER THE PRESSURE a rare treat, not the depressing norm! :O )

[FinalBaton]

You're nuts BIL

I too like the pixelated splosions in El Viento, they look cool in that game.