Soul Star, Galaxy Force, Scaling & Rotation, PCE,SNES &a

[ST Dragon]

I just tried Soul Star (J) on the SEGA Mega CD and I must say I'm pretty impressed by the Scaling & Rotation presented in the game. (Let’s not forget the Sonic Bonus stages in Sonic CD)
There was even supposed to be a Jaguar CD version but I'm not sure if that ever saw the light of day?
http://www.cyberroach.com/jaguarcd/html/soulstar.htm

Well, it's pretty obvious that the SEGA CD was equipped with some pretty nice Scaling & Rotation hardware routines and in some parts it's even comparable to Galaxy Force II (Arcade).




One can only wonder how come there was no Galaxy Force II port on the SEGA CD?

How good is the GF2 Saturn port by the way?

I still think the SNES was the better machine when it comes to scaling & rotation though.
The SNES has become synonymous to the scaling & rotation routine it self, with so any nice examples to show it off.

Was the PCE or DUO even capable of complex hardware Scaling & Rotation routines by the way?
Space Harrier & Jimmu Densho Yaksa PCE) are not quite as good as Space Harrier II on the Mega Drive but After Burner PCE had superior scaling & rotation to the Genesis port.

I can’t think of any PCE DUO CD titles that used this specific routine though?

[louisg]

Very cool, ST Dragon-- now I'm interested in seeing Soul Star. The GF2 port for Saturn is rather decent-- perhaps not as flawless as the other Saturn Ages games, but I only really played it a couple times (and it's doing a lot more).

Comparing the SNES to other hardware that did scaling and rotation is a little tricky-- the SNES *ONLY* does scaling and rotation on the background layer-- this seems much easier to implement than sprite rotation. I don't quite know what the Sega CD does and does not provide for in terms of sprite effects, but something like Galaxy Force arcade machine was pretty heavy on effects that the SNES would likely have no easier a time with than the Genesis.

[ST Dragon]

Those are some Interesting points there louisg.

I've been told that Saturn GFII suffers from low FPS (around 30FPS!) or was that After Burner II?
I'll have to re-burn those old CD image and see for my self.

[louisg]

Yeah I'm not quite sure about framerates.. I know some of those effect-heavy 80s Sega games were 30fps in the arcades. The Saturn port of Outrun has a 60fps mode for instance, and it kind of diminishes the effect of speed (for me, at least) because it "strobes" less.

[Keranu]

I'll try to clear things up on the TG16/PCE side...

The only Turbo Grafx 16/PC Engine related hardware that had scailing and rotating effects was the SuperGrafx, though that can be considered a seperate console. The TG16/PCE, CD-add on, or any System Cards didn't have any built in scailing and rotating effects in the hardware, so whenever you saw scailing or rotating effects in TG16/PCE games, it was drawn by hand (like in some of my sprites ). This all goes the same for other consoles too, like NES, Genesis, Master System, etc...

You might have seen scailing and rotating more often in the more advance TG16/PCE hardware, like the Super System Card 3.0 or Arcade Card, mainly because there is more RAM with those cards, so with more RAM, that means more room for extra frames and what not for such handmade effects. With the Arcade Card especially having a shit load of RAM, you could really dedicate a lot of that RAM for scailing and rotating effects if you wanted to, making the effects look just as good, if not, better than games that used premade effects in SNES or Sega CD games.

Just to express my opinion, I thought the scailing in Space Harrier II for Genesis looked rather choppy :\ . Panarama Cotton looked a lot better in that department.

EDIT: Added the "didn't" part .

[The Coop]

Soul Star for the Sega CD was a game that showed what the system could do when programmers weren't trying to shove FMV garbage down the throats of those of us who bought the system. Where the SNES could only scale and rotate a limited amount (as has already been stated), the Sega CD had "true" scaling and rotation capabilities. This means it could scale anything (backgrounds, individual sprites, etc.) and it could do it all at the same time. That's why Soul Star looks so close to Galaxy Force II at times. There's no way the SNES could have done either game any justice.

As for why there was no port of Galaxy Force II for the Sega CD, if my memory serves me correctly, I read that the rights to port the title went to another company, but they never made it. Eventually, their rights to it ran out and that was the end of it. If you recall, there was a MegaDrive version of Power Drift that was going to be made, but it suffered a similar fate from what I read in the past. Again, this is just what I recall reading.

Galaxy Force II for the Saturn isn't a perfect port of the arcade, but it is a good one... better than any other port (though I've never seen the FM Towns Marty version running). The stays smooth throughout, and it's quick, retro fun. If you get a chance, I say pick it up. It's not expensive, so it won't do much damage to your wallet.

Oh, and by all means get Soul Star. Gens emulates it perfectly, so you can play the actual CD on your PC (once you install the apsi2000 drivers if you're on XP). It's a fun, long game with a great orchestral soundtrack. I'm pretty sure it too isn't expensive.

[ghibli99]

GF2 and Power Drift on the Saturn were poor ports of the arcade versions. AB2, OR, and SH all rocked. There was supposed to be a Sega Ages GF2 for the PS2, but it looks like it was delayed (hopefully not canceled). It would be great to get a more faithful port.

[The Coop]

If it's going to the PS2, then it's likely going to be an "upgraded" version and not a straight port, just like all the other Sega Ages games for the PS2 (OutRun, Golden Axe, etc.)...

... which doesn't bode well for how it'll turn out.

[ghibli99]

If it's going to the PS2, then it's likely going to be an "upgraded" version and not a straight port, just like all the other Sega Ages games for the PS2 (OutRun, Golden Axe, etc.)...

... which doesn't bode well for how it'll turn out.

I'm pretty sure those 3D Ages games are over with, thank *God*. Most of the ports lately have been pretty faithful to their arcade originals, like Space Harrier Complete Collection, which is like Sega's apology for the 3D Ages travesty.

This blurb from IGN is encouraging, at least:

PlayStation 2 port of Galaxy Force II. The game is brought over to the console in perfect ported form. The project was actually started in order to give the game a perfect port for the first time.

[GateofThunderforceIII]

Actually, I read somewhere that Sega got rid of D3 for future Sega Ages volumes. I believe D3 was responsible for doing the updated stuff like Golden Axe. Sega will be handling things from here on out and that is probably why Treasure Box wasn't molested and left in pristine condition. I think the Sega Ages line will rock so hard now as long as Sega sticks with it. I'm dying for the Panzer Dragoon one to come out. Last Bronx should tear things up as well hopefully.

[ccovell]

I'll try to clear things up on the TG16/PCE side...

The only Turbo Grafx 16/PC Engine related hardware that had scailing and rotating effects was the SuperGrafx, though that can be considered a seperate console. The TG16/PCE, CD-add on, or any System Cards had built in scailing and rotating effects in the hardware...

Sorry, you made it even muddier. You do mean the TG16/PCE/CD or any system cards didn't have built-in scaling and rotation in the harware, right? And could you explain what you said about the SuperGrafx? It is just a fancy PC-Engine and thus doesn't have any hardware scaling or rotation effects, AFAIK.

The only thing approaching "scaling" on the TG16/PCE and Genesis/MD is that they both can do line scrolling, (causing parallax when the scroll is varied in the horizontal direction, and) causing for scaling/compression of the background when the scroll is varied in the vertical direction. This can make effects possible like the overhead stages in Axelay, or the entirety of Panorama Cotton, in fact.

[Neon]

GF2 and Power Drift on the Saturn were poor ports of the arcade versions.

I wouldn't say poor because of 30 FPS, still very playable and Power Drift has an arranged soundtrack and all that. And they're the best ports till they get ps2 releases.

[Keranu]

Sorry, you made it even muddier. You do mean the TG16/PCE/CD or any system cards didn't have built-in scaling and rotation in the harware, right? And could you explain what you said about the SuperGrafx? It is just a fancy PC-Engine and thus doesn't have any hardware scaling or rotation effects, AFAIK.

The only thing approaching "scaling" on the TG16/PCE and Genesis/MD is that they both can do line scrolling, (causing parallax when the scroll is varied in the horizontal direction, and) causing for scaling/compression of the background when the scroll is varied in the vertical direction. This can make effects possible like the overhead stages in Axelay, or the entirety of Panorama Cotton, in fact.

Whoops sorry, I was meaning to post I wasn't a programmer and such, honestly :O . Anyways, yes, I did mean that the System Cards didn't have any built-in scailing and rotating effects, of course . Now I am very uncertain about the Super Grafx hardware having these effects. At first, I was sure it didn't have any, but then I thought I started reading from multiple sources that it did have the effects . Thanks for clearing this up for me, I can certainly trust you since you are a hardcore Super Grafx programmer (once again, major thumbs up on your Super Grafx Axelay demos!).

[ghibli99]

GF2 and Power Drift on the Saturn were poor ports of the arcade versions.

I wouldn't say poor because of 30 FPS, still very playable and Power Drift has an arranged soundtrack and all that. And they're the best ports till they get ps2 releases.

You're right... poor was probably a little harsh for Power Drift, but I'm standing by it for GF2, just because I felt like the port itself was pretty sloppy. I actually eBayed mine shortly after I got it in the mail.

How was the DC version of Power Drift? I read it was 60fps and was a more faithful port, but unfortunately, I never had a chance to play it. So many fond memories of this game in arcades...

[LSU]

I find the Saturn port of Galaxy Force II to be OK. It's fun for a quick blast from time to time but I much prefer Space Harrier and Afterburner.

GFII does run at about 30fps by the way, and it seems a little sluggish to me control-wise next to the faster, smoother SEGA sprite scaling games. As someone said above though, it's quite cheap to pick up and it's fun for a quick play.

[llabnip]

I just picked up Galaxy Force II for the Saturn last week strangely enough. I'm having a blast with it - great retro fun and very addictive. It may run at 30FPS with dips here and there, but still quite playable. Not as nice as having the full sit-down deluxe cab - now that was fun!

Space Harrier and After Burner II were better ports and run smoother, but that doesn't stop GF2 from being enjoyable.

[ST Dragon]

I'll try to clear things up on the TG16/PCE side...

The only Turbo Grafx 16/PC Engine related hardware that had scailing and rotating effects was the SuperGrafx, though that can be considered a seperate console. The TG16/PCE, CD-add on, or any System Cards didn't have any built in scailing and rotating effects in the hardware, so whenever you saw scailing or rotating effects in TG16/PCE games, it was drawn by hand (like in some of my sprites ). This all goes the same for other consoles too, like NES, Genesis, Master System, etc...

You might have seen scailing and rotating more often in the more advance TG16/PCE hardware, like the Super System Card 3.0 or Arcade Card, mainly because there is more RAM with those cards, so with more RAM, that means more room for extra frames and what not for such handmade effects. With the Arcade Card especially having a shit load of RAM, you could really dedicate a lot of that RAM for scailing and rotating effects if you wanted to, making the effects look just as good, if not, better than games that used premade effects in SNES or Sega CD games.

Just to express my opinion, I thought the scailing in Space Harrier II for Genesis looked rather choppy :\ . Panarama Cotton looked a lot better in that department.

EDIT: Added the "didn't" part .

He, he, he...
I knew I would have lured you into this!

Welcome to Your Doom!

[Keranu]

Haha, Altered Beast still rocks my life.

[ST Dragon]

And it should!
I mean, where else can you get two muscle dudes that get pumped up so high and rip straight through their clothes!

If only I could get a hold of a mint work MD cart

[Diabollokus]

I have soul star, definelty a good game 2 player option was handy in some parts. Graphically a sega CD highlight. cool plot and music.

Recommend you play it in hard mode just to see the true final boss on planet metafuss, unlike anything else in the game. If comes after you! Hard game though could take awhile. nice use of vehicle changing.

There was 32X version, Soulstar X that got cancelled, supposedly it was brilliant had some nice graphical additions, a few mech levels in a battlesuit and cutscenes.

[D]

I thought that mega CD has no hardware effects like SNES.
For sprite scaling on the SNES check flight sims, there is at least one that rocks, don't know the name by hart though. And it's one of those 3D type f-15 flight sim dog fight games. but with scaled 2D graphics
GF2 for Saturn rocks, even if it is less than arcade.
Outrun for saturn PAL is standard 60 FPS
Jap Outrun has standard 30 FPS and option for 60 FPS
US I don't know
I am so curious what the GF2 port will be like on the next PS2 Sega Ages.

[elvis]

I thought that mega CD has no hardware effects like SNES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_CD#Te ... ifications

It doesn't say how, but it does mention these effects. My guess is it was simply done in software thanks to the then quite fast 12.5MHz 68K processor (compared to the 7.6MHz 68K in the MegaDrive).

Games like Castlevania on MD showed similar effects, and even titles like Gynoug did some pretty neat stuff.

[OneEyedJack]

The SuperGrafx did not have any scaling/rotation. The only thing it really had over the PC Engine was more work ram (from 8K to 32k)and was able to have a separate background from the stage like the Genesis/SNES. Same 8 bit processor, same sound hardware.

It is reported that developers were not impressed, which is part of the reason that only 6 games were made.


The scaling/rotation on the Sega CD was very good. The Sonic CD bonus levels really showed the advanced scaling (better than the SNES). Hoever, there weren't too many games to take advantage of it.

[BrianC]

How are the ports in the SEGA Ages Memorial Collections for Saturn? I heard that Fantasy Zone was ported well. I'm also interested in SEGA Ages Tant-R and SEGA Ages Ichident-R for Saturn. How did those turn out?

[The Coop]

I thought that mega CD has no hardware effects like SNES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_CD#Te ... ifications

It doesn't say how, but it does mention these effects. My guess is it was simply done in software thanks to the then quite fast 12.5MHz 68K processor (compared to the 7.6MHz 68K in the MegaDrive).

Games like Castlevania on MD showed similar effects, and even titles like Gynoug did some pretty neat stuff.

I wasn't software, it was handled in its hardware. Every magazine back in the day specifically mentioned that the Sega CD had hardware scaling and rotation (a big deal back then) when it was getting ready for release in Japan. There weren't that many games that used it, partly because of the laziness of developers who didn't want to invest a lot of time in finding out just what the system could do, and thus were content in making cart games with CD music, and FMV tripe. So when it was all over, there were really only a few developers who actually used what the Sega CD offered in terms of storage capacity and hardware capabilities.

[Turrican]

Soul Star did get even on a magazine cover around here - back then everyone was in love with Core Design and they were one of the very few developers which believed in the Mega-cd and coded some games for it.

The results weren't brilliant but let's see the positive - Core got the experience to start on next-gen systems with an edge. Toby Gard was working on the mega-cd for BC Racers before he conceived Tomb Raider.

[Keranu]

The SuperGrafx did not have any scaling/rotation. The only thing it really had over the PC Engine was more work ram (from 8K to 32k)and was able to have a separate background from the stage like the Genesis/SNES. Same 8 bit processor, same sound hardware.

It is reported that developers were not impressed, which is part of the reason that only 6 games were made.

The VRAM was also doubled to 128kb from the original PCE, but yes not such a big improvement over the original PCE system. It mainly wasn't developed for because it's hardware wasn't very different from the original PCE, and since the original PCE was powerful enough and selling great enough as it was, really no need for Super Grafx .

[nZero]

The VRAM was also doubled to 128kb from the original PCE, but yes not such a big improvement over the original PCE system.

Which was done because the extra sprites and scroll plane came from adding another Hu6270 PPU. Twice the number of video processors, twice the VRAM.

[welcometoyourdoom]

The Sega/Mega CD most certainly does its scaling and rotation effects in hardware. Everyone wants to mention Soulstar and the Sonic CD bonus stages, but the Batmobile/boat levels in Batman Returns are a much more impressive use of the machine's hardware muscle. Oh, and don't forget Night Striker.
As for the SuperGrafx, I also remember much buzz back in the day about it supported hardware scaling and rotation, as seemingly evidenced by the effects in Battle Ace. Now I'm not so sure, and the board does appear to be the same except for the extra PPU and RAM, which would suggest that Battle Ace's effects were done in software.
I enjoyed all the Sega Ages Saturn releases....Afterburner, Outrun, and Space Harrier are practically perfect. Galaxy Force II is a tad less smooth than the arcade version, but 60 fps is not a requirement for me, and I still enjoyed it. Power Drift also was less than absolutely perfect as a conversion, but played fast and smooth just how I like it. Out of these five games, Power Drift gave me the biggest thrill in the arcade, and the Saturn version fully satisfies me. Overall, these five are some of my most cherished Saturn games.

[BrianC]

The Sega/Mega CD most certainly does its scaling and rotation effects in hardware. Everyone wants to mention Soulstar and the Sonic CD bonus stages, but the Batmobile/boat levels in Batman Returns are a much more impressive use of the machine's hardware muscle. Oh, and don't forget Night Striker.
As for the SuperGrafx, I also remember much buzz back in the day about it supported hardware scaling and rotation, as seemingly evidenced by the effects in Battle Ace. Now I'm not so sure, and the board does appear to be the same except for the extra PPU and RAM, which would suggest that Battle Ace's effects were done in software.
I enjoyed all the Sega Ages Saturn releases....Afterburner, Outrun, and Space Harrier are practically perfect. Galaxy Force II is a tad less smooth than the arcade version, but 60 fps is not a requirement for me, and I still enjoyed it. Power Drift also was less than absolutely perfect as a conversion, but played fast and smooth just how I like it. Out of these five games, Power Drift gave me the biggest thrill in the arcade, and the Saturn version fully satisfies me. Overall, these five are some of my most cherished Saturn games.

I definatly want to get my hands on some of those SEGA Ages for the Saturn. I asked about some of the others that aren't mentioned as much here, but with 5 full replies not adressing it, I might as well bring it up again. I'm especially interested in how the Saturn Memorial collections turned out since they have older games like Pengo, Head On, Ninja Princess, Flicky, and Monaco GP in them. I know Power Drift, Space Harrier, Afterburner 2, OutRun, and Fantasy Zone are probably worth picking up and Galaxy Force II is a maybe, but what about some of the others?

This is what I said earlier in the topic:

How are the ports in the SEGA Ages Memorial Collections for Saturn? I heard that Fantasy Zone was ported well. I'm also interested in SEGA Ages Tant-R and SEGA Ages Ichident-R for Saturn. How did those turn out?