__SKYe wrote:Overall both games have pretty comparable difficulty as far as the levels and standard enemies go, but when you factor the bosses in, then BK2 is quite a bit tougher.
I think BK2 starts with the easier bosses, but gets pretty tough as the game goes on (culminating in a tough boss rush), while BK3 has the harder initial bosses, but they have a shallower difficulty curve, perhaps with the exception of the jetpack guy, which is somewhat harder than the rest.
i have never fully grasped how you're actually
supposed to fight jet. my BK2 sessions are far enough apart that i often forget very large portions of how to play it in-between, and have never gotten truly good at it. i belted out a 1cc on my last attempt, which i think was my first play in a year or so, but it was with just one life left and with the character i always tend to favor. BK2 is easily one of my favorite games, but despite its depth and complexity, i've never really applied myself in a meaningful way like i do with a lot of my other favs. perhaps this is because of its slightly exaggerated length and incredible presentation making it a bit hard for me to want to consider consecutive playthroughs? playing with my pal who is visiting is probably going to be revealing a lot, to me!
Yeah, and one of the fun things that happens on a first playthrough, is figuring out which enemies are hostile and which aren't. Since the very start, the game shows you that enemies are/can be docile, so as you play on there's this factor of carefully approaching new enemies (also based on their appearance) to see if they are also docile or not -- case in point, the parasol enemy, which you encounter on World 1. You'll quickly find out that he isn't docile like every enemy you've encountered before him, which further makes you consider whether the next enemies will also be hostile or not.
the parasol enemy is actually in all 5 worlds - he's just quite hidden in a couple of them. his appearances in levels 3, 4, and 5 drop the game's only 1up flowers. each fight with him has unique geography and he can take more or less hits depending on which you find.
i feel like some enemies that can harm you aren't necessarily "hostile." there's some that attack back only when attacked, and some that seem to just appear to be going about their business that might hurt you by indifference (those little floor/ceiling stretchy dudes before the clam in stage 3, for example. they always seemed like they didn't even acknowledge you being there).
i would love to see a game like super metroid where large portions of the local wildlife didn't want you dead. many people talk about how neat the moments with the etecoons and dachara are, why not have more of that? most enemies in super metroid aren't really dangerous, anyway, because of the low damage that they deal, i think it would be more interesting to have many encounters with non-threatening life that uniquely reacts to your presence. i was really hoping for rain world to be a bit more like this, but it's just a trashy, open-world survival game that happens to somehow be in 2D.
The game is full of these little details (which may or may not be as the developer intended, and I'm just imagining stuff
) which are lost if the player just runs through the game with the "clear it" idea in mind (which, to be honest, is the one I started playing with). Hopefully new players will take some time to enjoy the sights, since a big part of the game's charm is doing precisely that.
i would definitely say that most of the potential interactions that can be wrought out of the game's enemies were intended. take for example how complex the movement is on that little badger guy just before the stage 3 boss: as long as you keep up with him, he will keep walking ahead of you, and then turning back to make sure you're still following him if he hits the edge of the screen. if you go too slowly, he gets overexcited and heads back toward your direction, bumping into you and accidentally making you have to tread more ground. this is one of my favorite thematic bits of the game, because both him and that cow in the same area have incredibly complex routines for enemies that cannot even hurt you and aren't trying to impede you (but might b/c of their overexcitement). the scene plays out perfectly if you just hold forward and then time a jump over the cow (who won't bump you while tailing you from the left, but will excitedly bump you from the right and then cause the badger to also do the same), and it really feels like they're encouraging you along your journey and leading you to the boss.
it wasn't until many years later that other (mostly indie) games tried doing similar things, and i feel they often hamfist the hell out of it by adding lots of dialogue/exposition or forcing you to make cruel decisions and then chastising you for just playing the game the only way they allowed you. trip world is shockingly non-patronizing and concise for a game like this, and i think it's why it's often misunderstood - there's nothing TELLING the player to play it peacefully and enjoy the little interactions, there's just a lot suggesting it. i feel like gamers and collectors are
kind of stupid people, and it's not surprising there are numerous amount of bad takes on this game that call it half-baked, incomplete, or missing the mark on its execution. i think it's fine to consider the game dull or boring (though i'd disagree), but to say it's not what it wanted to be or that the designers didn't have a vision that they accomplished is completely stupid.
Not yet, another one I want to play a bit more before watching. Rest assured I will watch it.
i'm happy with the speed & accuracy i go through that one (makyo densetsu) with. i don't think i've really seen this game discussed anywhere but in youtube videos by nostalgic tg16 nerds calling it the system's staple action game, and that kind of upsets me! it's actually quite good and has this memorably offbeat presentation to it. i often rubberneck youtube top X lists done by collector bozos for the combination "eugh god this is what popular opinion is?" and "maybe i'll actually hear about something new" factors. none of these people actually seem to have genuine enthusiasm for action and always just shove one or two in-between their precious RPG's and adventure titles they usually play once and are totally done with, so i'd long considered makyo densetsu something like the castle of illusion of the pc engine - that one game everyone talks up that's only merely decent-ish, but overexposed enough that it won't get challenged by the group-think consensus.
it's actually really tight!
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BIL wrote:Other than The Ninja Warriors Again (SFC), which is astonishingly good and should be played immediately (just keep in mind Kamaitachi is the EZMODE character), it seems like an underpopulated genre. The only ones with similar brawling cred (developed grappling and combo mechanics) I can think up offhand are Crude Buster (arcade, with an excellent MD port) and Mad Stalker (X68k, PCE-CD and PS1 - I've only played the last, seems a bit broken and OTT, but endearingly so).
speaking of mad stalker, i was trying to burn a copy of sapphire and try it on my pce last night. i have the arcade card duo, so i could, but i wasted two discs, neither of which would play it. i thought my arcade card might be bad, so i decided to give mad stalker a spin, which i'd picked up a while ago but not dug into because my last shipment of pce stuff came when i was both in a really bad situation and awfully depressed. ended up playing through it twice, on both normal and hard (with the red and yellow mechs, respectively). it's... ehhhhhh. not a lot of depth, and i found that spamming the hell out of dash attacks was way too viable. some bosses, depending on the character you're playing, will literally just sit there and block them indefinitely, dying eventually from chip damage.
i ended up using all 3 reserve credits on both runs in almost identical ways. the stage 5 boss is a piece of shit (identical looks & moveset to the yellow slave gear you can choose) and seems to randomly counter your attacks by grappling you and doing massive damage - perhaps there's a way to consistently avoid that, but i couldn't find one, and he was quite aggressive aside from that. you'd think distance would prevent it from happening, but he seemed to be able to do it from surprisingly far away, too. in both runs, i had to continue twice on him, and then burn the last continue on his refight during the boss rush in the next stage.
anyway, the pce version is the only one that seems to have maybe not been done entirely by fill-in cafe, and there's a credited second developer. i'm curious how different it is! the fm towns and x68k version seem nearly identical, but i believe the ps1 game is a remake and the most likely to be mechanically competent.
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as far as other single-plane beat 'em ups that actually got some beat 'em mechanics go -
Panzer Bandit is, like mad stalker, developed by fill-in cafe (
edit: i should probably mention: they're most famous for the asuka 120% games). i believe it runs on the same engine as the ps1 remake of mad stalker, but is supposed to be more mechanically advanced. i'm told the stages are dull, but the boss fights are exciting (and i believe they're recruitable, too - i wasn't interested in this until i was told there was a playable catgirl, please forgive me). its not in too crazy a price range and i've been wanting to pick it up for a little while since being told about it. my friend might be bringing it down for me to give a brief try to while he's here.
Battle Zeque-Den is developed by asmik and quite frankly looks like the kind of dogshit you'd expect from them (did they do ANYTHING good???). friend recently picked this one up and seemed to affirm that as being the case. maybe worth bringing up just for the general kind of rarity of this slightly specific genre? it has cool-looking sprite art, i guess.
Gear Senshi Dendoh is a ps1 title by natsume that is mostly a single plane beat 'em up, but turns into a straight-up 3d fighting game for the bosses. again, haven't played it, but this one appears to be dirt fucking cheap on yahoo auctions and is probably pretty neat. if y'all buy this and raise the price before my next shipment i will hold it against you forever though, okay? >:[
Phantom Breaker: Battle Grounds is a surprisingly good download title released just a few years ago. i believe it is a fighting game spin-off, and it actually plays on two planes rather than just one, but i think still qualifies for what we're talking about. it's a bit breezy, but don't let the leveling system and numbers popping out of enemies distract you, the game is still pretty tight and not bloated with RPG stuff.
Kirby Super Star may seem like an utterly ridiculous suggestion given its genre leanings, but i'm going to go ahead and jam it in here. it has surprisingly diverse movesets given its incredible range of abilities, and plays a bit like a co-op brawler (it's not hard to see how sakurai went to smash bros, after this) complete with grabs, dash attacks, and sometimes special moves. if you've got a pal, this is quite frankly one of the most enjoyable 2-player games i've ever had the pleasure to play, and is easily one of my favorite games, period. try playing with a friend who isn't used to games, as you can indefinitely revive the 2nd player. needless to say, this is super breezy, but the presentation is utterly top notch and the general controls and refined feedback are superb. a joy for any enthusiast of 2d toybox play, and a game i bring up knowing many are likely familiar with it, but may have passed over for whatever reason. no other kirby game is quite as snappy as it, though the recent games by the new director have been closer to its design.
Renny Blaster is a pc engine cd title with an incredibly robust presentation (numerous cutscenes and i think even some dialogue choices and stage branching, maybe?) and castlevania-esque visuals (along with a story about vampires or something). it features a relatively diverse moveset, but isn't quite as tight as i'd have liked it to be and is more recommended for its other factors. only played this one for a brief time before deciding it's something i'd like to eventually pick up. it's really expensive, but might be an odd treat years down the line. this one might possibly more belong in the below group, i can't remember if it has things like grabs & combos or not and its moveset is perhaps too awkward to be more beat 'em up-esque.
there's also double dragon 2, which is
sometimes just a single plane and a very fine game. still looking for the famicom copy (refer to bil's older posts for interesting version differences). it doesn't get a bold and capitalized title because i'm not sure how much it really counts given the inclusion of belt-scrolling at half or more of the game's parts.
Everything else I can recall (I'm sure there's some I'm unaware of) falls into the Spartan X school of sidescrolling melee action. Other than Spartan, its direct sequel Vigilante, and the well-known Altered Beast, Splatterhouse and The Ninja Warriors, I'd suggest Taito's Thunder Fox (AC - avoid the horribly, unrecognisably sluggish MD port, go for Taito Memories II Gekan on PS2 instead). Seamless hybrid of Rolling Thunder gunplay and unrestrained crowd slaughter. It's nuts!
a few more i've found interesting enough to either enjoy or look into getting -
Melfand Stories for the sfc looks to be of a pretty decent quality, and is quite cute, to boot!
Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers (and MMPR: The Movie) for SNES are both games i will go to bat for (they have light platforming elements, but play a bit more like the above mentioned games by BIL than a typical action game). the first of the two is completely restricted to a single plane and very breezy, but a good bit of fun with quality natsume production values and generally tight controls. the movie game lets you switch between two planes, ala shinobi, and is the bit more developed and rounded of the two. i feel like these often get overlooked because of their license and not being up to par with natsume's best, but they're really far from deserving to be overlooked given natsume's very high bar during this generation. also worth looking into is the fighting game, which feels like it has some pretty beat 'em up inspired snappiness and general mechanical design.
Splatterhouse: Wanpaku Graffiti is a splatterhouse spin-off that seems to be fairly decent, but i've not played yet due to being burned by other poor titles by the developer (which bears mentioning is
not namco). everyone here is likely already aware of it, but i figured i'd bear distinguishing it from the original, which BIL already mentioned.
Kuri Kinton feels very in the vein of spartan x evolution and a bit like vigilante. not particularly quality, but easily available on one the second of the ps2 taito legends collections and with a charming enough presentation to at least be credit fed. feels like it dips slightly more toward that weird side of semi-fighting games like a few of the hiryu no ken titles, though.
Genocide and Genocide 2 are both these types of games, too. kind of like mad stalker, they're both mech action, as well. released on a variety of platforms. avoid the sfc port of the 2nd game, it's the only one i've played and was developed by bits studio, and it's quite bad.
Kaizo Chojin Shubibinman 1, 3, and Zero all fit the genre, though zero perhaps less than the other two. i've yet to play the first, but it seems like a fairly standard spartan x-type game (copy is on the way and i'll be playing it soon-ish, however). the third game has a really great presentation and pacing to it, and despite a serious breeziness and bit of a short length, is quickly becoming a favorite pc engine game of mine. fun with a friend, too. zero is a bit more action-platformer-y than single plane melee/brawler, but features snappy combo moves and similar play to the previous titles - i'd consider 3 slightly better, but can easily see someone preferring this one. 2 is outright action-platformer and doesn't quite qualify, but it's a pretty decent rockman-styled game with shmup stages. reminder that zero recently got a repro cart that is officially produced by the license holder and manufactured by columbus circle, the same people who released the 8bit music power games as well as kirakira star night.
the boundaries of this genre get a little muddled between straight action and clearly defined melee combat, and i feel like due to the short range of the attacks and lack of complicated platforming, the entire daiku no gen-san series and a few batman games may also tangentially qualify or be worth bringing up, though any further and we're hitting stuff like KID's kick master and g.i. joe: the atlantis factor, or even something like jigoku gokuraku maru (or, hell, even ninja gaiden), which feel more toward general action/platforming.
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there! *wipes sweat*
enough titles to keep anyone busy, and almost guaranteed to have one or two ya either forgot about or never heard of.
had 11 full days to get there and was being shipped in the same damn city from a reputable seller - no idea what happened, there! plenty of other beat 'em up fun on the way, though, and i suspect to do a few co-op recordings while he's down here, and maybe even a couple after with my bff. she's not quite up to my level (relatively amateur beat 'em up player that i am), but is definitely competent enough to keep up without completely soaking the credit pool. 
did you check out the makyo densetsu run, by chance? that one is really fun, i think. 
ah, i'd totally forgotten that panzer bandit had multiple planes. i didn't check it out for too long before deciding i wanted a copy, and must have automatically assumed more similarity to mad stalker, which occupied the previous evening. 
Super catchy and super heavy. Sakimoto and his frequent partner Iwata were alchemists. (tbh, maybe it's better that the game doesn't demand all that much attention >_> )
VPW2 is probably the best of the lot... it was Japan-only, released between the Western Wrestlemania 2000 and No Mercy. Keeps the speedy 4P framerate of the former, adds the vital finishing touches of the latter (like the running grab that puts an attacking player on even footing with a stationary defender). Also has exclusive MMA fighting with a radically differing engine and rules, that could've easily been released as a stand-alone game - and you can mix/match it with the main wrestling mode! I've a long-standing affinity for this series - they were among the few games to really challenge Goldeneye 007 in our after-school multiplayer sessions, back in the glory days of buddyville (tm & c drauch) - but it really is quality work, with VPW2 the apex. Great for both casual 4P rumbles and bitter competitive rivalries. Even a moderately-skilled player will break a button-masher in half, while experts will bring the roof down with contests of appalling yet ultra-finessed violence. 
