Shmup article in EGM #202 April 2006 issue...

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:34 pm

Why can't you figure out that DUE to the fact SHMUPS aren't popular is because people don't know SQUAT about them?

And BECAUSE people don't know SQUAT about them they GET NO EXPOSURE. It isn't because they are bad games.

Look up the word "Propaganda" in the dictionary sometime. The word "Advertising" is virtually synonymous with it.

When a game is advertised the company that advertises the game have invested money and confidence that the information in that advertisement will get a gamer's attention. This is called exposure. Exposure is very risky because the game companies don't know if people will like or hate the game based on the ad. And other factors like locations and global climate come into it as well. In some cases games don't get advertisements and usually the information on the game is spread via either word of mouth or has its own website.

Gamers will do research in magazines or even go to a video store to rent the game advertised to see if it is worth buying. But when gaming magazines give shoddily done reviews of a particular game, resulting in some obscure abstract article. People's reactions will result in negative disinterest simply on the basis that they would normally trust this person's review. When the game is placed in a negative light, people will see it as such.

Sales are DETERMINED by how a person sees a game before they buy it. If the person sees a game is crappily done in some review they aren't going to bother with buying the game. It has NOTHING to do with how good or bad a game is in it's own right, because nobody's played it yet...it only determines whether or not it'll sell or not.

Everytime somebody like you says shmups are a niche market, there are developers out there that actually believe you, and because of that no shmups get ported or developed.

If you really like shmups, don't you think it's in your best interest to actually see to it that they get marketed properly? If they're shoddily marketed they don't get the exposure they need to actually get people to like them as a game genre. That's how advertising works...you get people to take interest in a game before they buy it.

Do you care about getting shmups over here? If you do, that's more points for games like Ibara. If you don't care it's not good. The market starts with the opinions and observations of the people. The more people give a shit, the higher the demand for supply. Supply and demand. Put 2 and 2 together, Einstein.

Why do you suppose shmuppers are content to import? Do you think they LIKE reading Japanese text or spending that extra hundred bucks on modding their systems? NO! They do it because they have to in order to play the games! That's not contentment, that's MAKING DUE.

If shmups had a properly done market and gamers knew more about the genre than they currently do we'd get more shmups available...as tiktak was saying earlier, a large market percentage of CURRENT modern gamers kinda missed the 80s and mid 90s. In fact they most likely weren't even BORN back then. They were raised on Zelda 64 and Crash Bandicoot most likely. Knowing NOTHING about how fun shmups were in the past.

As for why Shikigami 2 failed it was more along the lines that X-Games who is KNOWN for crappily porting their games ported the prequel as MOBILE LIGHT FORCE 2, not to mention it was badly translated. That's an insult to the game itself. Would you buy a game if the game company that released it defacated all over it? Even if that game was originally an awesome game?

You want to know why shooters don't sell well in this country? It's because haters like you hype Halo as better in comparison to shmups when they aren't even in the SAME GENRE!

If you're a shmup fan at all, you should be able to see the ramifications of your beliefs and words. If not, I don't see why you even go to this forum. And insulting me is not very mature of you, by any means.

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:02 pm

Bah! That's no article, that's a mere blurb.

Bill

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:40 pm

Blade wrote:Why can't you figure out that DUE to the fact SHMUPS aren't popular is because people don't know SQUAT about them?

They aren't popular because they got phased out when people no longer wanted them. A kid growing up on Zelda 64 isn't missing anything.

heurhface · Post by **heurhface** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:08 pm

Rob wrote:
Blade wrote:Why can't you figure out that DUE to the fact SHMUPS aren't popular is because people don't know SQUAT about them?
They aren't popular because they got phased out when people no longer wanted them. A kid growing up on Zelda 64 isn't missing anything.

Seconded.

tiktak · Post by **tiktak** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:41 pm

heurhface wrote:
tiktak wrote:maybe they have money but are they gamers in stricty sense?
Well yes, they are. They play games. Last I heard that was the DEFINITION of a gamer.

They play games or "1 megazordylion polygons tripple buffering 10x anti-aliasing omg amazing" things? So how would you like to separate ppl who can play various types of games, select what they like, respect developers and ppl who after seeing 1 screen can hate whole genre. Any ideas? You know, this would be matter of rather low importance but some people (we?) suffer from this situation.

heurhface · Post by **heurhface** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:03 am

tiktak wrote: They play games or "1 megazordylion polygons tripple buffering 10x anti-aliasing omg amazing" things?

If you think there's a difference, you need to wake up and join the rest of the post-1987 society that exists. Quitcher bitchin, play what you want, and fuck 'em if they don't like it.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:32 am

heurhface wrote:When you eat do you have to move your colon out of the way? You seem to have your head about that far up your ass.

heurhface wrote:Nice wish there, Aladdin. Got a magic lamp to rub? No? Sorry, you're fucked. Maybe one day you'll grow up and learn some basic economics...

There is no need for this level of flaming in a response on this forum. You can make your points equally well without these kind of generic insults.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:12 pm

Hey, cool thread.

I have been thinking about the exposure issue for a while now. I think we can all agree that if shmups got more exposure (articles, reviews, ads) they would sell more.

Of course, we don't know how much more. Certainly not as much as Halo or GTA. But, I think, they would sell enough to get a few more companies developing them.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:16 pm

I also completely agree with Blade (hey are there two threads on this topic now?) If people took the time to understand the gameplay/depth of shmups, they would certainly enjoy it, but maybe that can be said about almost any genre. Fact is western'ers are lazy, and make quick buying decisions, so if the marketing/advertising isn't there, its a no go. Couple with the fact that shooters are still thought of as 1980's type games, they don't even think it posible to have any depth to them.

I'm happy with shmups being a sort of underground movement, with people in the know like those on this board. Sure I'd like to see more shmups released, but I don't want to see crap shmups thrown together based on some movie license simply to make a quick short-term profit.

heurhface · Post by **heurhface** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:40 pm

Look dudes... here's the deal...

Nobody will give a shit about shmups until someone can make them look as good as Doom 3, and make some REAL advances in gameplay. I'm sorry, a new scoring system is NOT an advance. It's a rehash. Most everyone here talks shit about FPS games, but at least they've evolved in the past decade. Play the original Doom then play Battlefield 2. Now compare DonPachi to Ibara. Different scoring system... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

Anyone that can seriously slam Madden for yearly updates while drooling over the latest Psikyo increment has a screw loose.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:09 pm

heurhface wrote:Look dudes... here's the deal...

Nobody will give a shit about shmups until someone can make them look as good as Doom 3, and make some REAL advances in gameplay.

Maybe someone's using the Doom3 engine to make a new shmup as we speak? Non-FPS games have been made from FPS engines after all.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:17 pm

heurhface wrote:Different scoring system... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

Well, these are Cave games. Cave changes arbitrary rules (uh, use attack 2 first then attack 1! uh, hit the enemies this way!) for scoring systems, so it isn't much. Advancements come from other companies. Buzzing, as integrated into gameplay clearly (Psyvariar), or bullet reflecting are solid advancements.

Also, Psikyo fans don't complain about sports games. They don't care. Cave fans care.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:06 pm

heurhface wrote:Look dudes... here's the deal...

Nobody will give a shit about shmups until someone can make them look as good as Doom 3, and make some REAL advances in gameplay. I'm sorry, a new scoring system is NOT an advance. It's a rehash. Most everyone here talks shit about FPS games, but at least they've evolved in the past decade. Play the original Doom then play Battlefield 2. Now compare DonPachi to Ibara. Different scoring system... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

Anyone that can seriously slam Madden for yearly updates while drooling over the latest Psikyo increment has a screw loose.

Straight from the horses mouth. Westerners measure advances in gameplay based on graphics alone. Sad but true.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:30 pm

heurhface wrote:DonPachi to Ibara. Different scoring system... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

I think you need to play both of these titles more.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:02 pm

Doom to Doom 3.Different weapons... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

heurhface · Post by **heurhface** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:11 pm

Rob wrote:Advancements come from other companies. Buzzing, as integrated into gameplay clearly (Psyvariar), or bullet reflecting are solid advancements.

"Hey, I have an idea! Let's take a dead stock shooter and tack on a new scoring system." You're proving my point without realizing it.

Rob wrote:Also, Psikyo fans don't complain about sports games. They don't care. Cave fans care.

That's the most nonsensical goddamned thing I've ever fucking read. Let me guess... Psikyo fan?

Dave_K. wrote: Straight from the horses mouth. Westerners measure advances in gameplay based on graphics alone. Sad but true.

Did you even fucking read what I said? Obviously not. Let me quote the relevant sentence and bold the part that you so clearly glossed over in your feeble human brain.

"Nobody will give a shit about shmups until someone can make them look as good as Doom 3, and make some REAL advances in gameplay."

Valgar wrote: I think you need to play both of these titles more.

I think you need to quit denying the obvious. Shooters are stagnant, and have been for a very long time. Any marginal advances are greeted with disdain and derision (see the aforementioned bullet reflecting mechanism for proof) while incremental updates to the same damn game are greeted with open arms.[/i]

DirtyMonk · Post by **DirtyMonk** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:12 pm

Plasmo wrote:Doom to Doom 3.Different weapons... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

Less enemies to shoot at.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:23 pm

heurhface wrote: "Hey, I have an idea! Let's take a dead stock shooter and tack on a new scoring system." You're proving my point without realizing it.

Nah, it's you not realizing "it." It being the difference between a gameplay advancement and a simple shooting rule change. So I guess this is just trolling. Negative for stupidity's sake.

That's the most nonsensical goddamned thing I've ever fucking read. Let me guess... Psikyo fan?

Yeah, it was a joke since you are taking this very seriously.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:35 pm

heurhface wrote:I think you need to quit denying the obvious. Shooters are stagnant, and have been for a very long time. Any marginal advances are greeted with disdain and derision (see the aforementioned bullet reflecting mechanism for proof) while incremental updates to the same damn game are greeted with open arms.[/i]

http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/nou.jpg

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:50 pm

Rob wrote:
Also, Psikyo fans don't complain about sports games. They don't care. Cave fans care.

A-FUCKEN-MEN,brother

Rock on, Madden/NBA 2K6

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:56 pm

Thunder Force wrote:
heurhface wrote:When you eat do you have to move your colon out of the way? You seem to have your head about that far up your ass.

heurhface wrote:Nice wish there, Aladdin. Got a magic lamp to rub? No? Sorry, you're fucked. Maybe one day you'll grow up and learn some basic economics...
There is no need for this level of flaming in a response on this forum. You can make your points equally well without these kind of generic insults.

Man, even I was never this bad.

Still, our excitable troll has a point, in that superior graphics will increase sales and acceptance of shooting games, as shown by Gradius 5. Whether we want all shooters to last over an hour with unskippable cutscenes and bleh Treasure gameplay is another question, though. I'll say again, I'm happy with the niche status. Even if new releases dried up entirely, there's more than enough old ones out there to play.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:18 pm

Gradius V was originally supposta be an arcade game, but Konami moved it to PS2. Also it is Gradius...not like Treasure came up with the basic gameplay structure for it. Don't knock.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:30 pm

Also it is Gradius...not like Treasure came up with the basic gameplay structure for it.

They did add constant bossfights, and other lame stuff like that door that doesn't reopen. The cutscenes in Ikaruga weren't very distracting for some reason but for Gradius 5 I don't need to hear the 30 seconds of dumb story every time I play. They do get credits for adding salamander style instant respawns, though.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:46 pm

Neon wrote:
Also it is Gradius...not like Treasure came up with the basic gameplay structure for it.
They did add constant bossfights, and other lame stuff like that door that doesn't reopen. The cutscenes in Ikaruga weren't very distracting for some reason but for Gradius 5 I don't need to hear the 30 seconds of dumb story every time I play. They do get credits for adding salamander style instant respawns, though.

Since it was such an epic long game, I just thought the minute break was OK. I would recite along with the dialogue.

Constant boss fights are awesome. You can't have little crappy enemies hogging all of the time in epic games. It doesn't feel like a Treasure game, since it's no nonsense. Treasure is about nonsense.

Alpolio · Post by **Alpolio** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:48 pm

Plasmo wrote:Doom to Doom 3.Different weapons... SLIGHTLY improved graphics... what else?

They did pretty good with the Halo series. I would never have thought of sticking Turok in a space suit.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:16 am

Blade wrote:Why can't you figure out that DUE to the fact SHMUPS aren't popular is because people don't know SQUAT about them?

And BECAUSE people don't know SQUAT about them they GET NO EXPOSURE. It isn't because they are bad games.

Wrong and wrong and more wrong...

These games don't sell in America because no one gives a fuck about them. No one cares ok? No amount of marketing or positive reviews will change the fact that they are still 2d and people will always (and I do mean ALWAYS) see them as old and outdated. This will be this way until a developer steps up and makes a truly amazing looking next gen shooter that actually looks next gen (either sick hi res 2d graphics with ridiculous animation or crazy use of 3d graphics for backgrounds and ships) and comes up with a way to make the games more accessible to mainstream gamers (a new gameplay gimmick, maybe 20 to 30 levels with more gradually sloping difficulty [start out on Gunbird 2 style baby difficulty and end somewhere around the end of Espgaluda perhaps] with saving between levels, maybe a story and some cut scenes... a real ending perhaps?). Of course, this would alienate all the long time fans of the genre who would bitch that the genre has strayed too far from it's roots.... only then would these types of games be able to do well with the preferences of todays market.

GateofThunderforceIII · Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:45 am

And that is why I'm more than content with the shooter genre being so niche and low profile. I don't ever want to see a shooter designed for the US mainstream crowd and be like what Acid King described. Just for the sake of making shooters mainstream in the US, would any of you like to see a shooter called Snoop Dogg's Bust A Cap In Yo' Ass where that Snoop Dogg mother****** runs around in a vertical urban street shooting cops, rival gangsta dawgs and bitches? Published by EA or Rockstar? Developed by some loser western developer? No thanks.

I'm actually deathly afraid of shooters turning mainstream in the US. That will mostly mean a monumental dumbing down of the genre. It may lead to a John Madden shooter where stupid ass quarterbacks are running up a vertical field throwing footballs at referees, cheerleaders and water boys and having John Madden's fat ass as the final boss. Developed by EA Tiburon. Hell no.

Even though I would agree that more shooters can come our way, I'm happy with the quality of what is coming out. It can be better, but shooters making a huge comeback can mean another over saturation of shooters...and tons of garbage.

All in MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:57 am

GateofThunderforceIII wrote:And that is why I'm more than content with the shooter genre being so niche and low profile. I don't ever want to see a shooter designed for the US mainstream crowd and be like what Acid King described. Just for the sake of making shooters mainstream in the US, would any of you like to see a shooter called Snoop Dogg's Bust A Cap In Yo' Ass where that Snoop Dogg mother****** runs around in a vertical urban street shooting cops, rival gangsta dawgs and bitches? Published by EA or Rockstar? Developed by some loser western developer? No thanks.

I'm actually deathly afraid of shooters turning mainstream in the US. That will mostly mean a monumental dumbing down of the genre. It may lead to a John Madden shooter where stupid ass quarterbacks are running up a vertical field throwing footballs at referees, cheerleaders and water boys and having John Madden's fat ass as the final boss. Developed by EA Tiburon. Hell no.

Even though I would agree that more shooters can come our way, I'm happy with the quality of what is coming out. It can be better, but shooters making a huge comeback can mean another over saturation of shooters...and tons of garbage.

All in MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Exactly (though I would welcome the crazy next gen 2d/3d graphics or a longer shooter with a fleshed out story). I'm fine with it being niche. I don't buy many US released games anymore and lack of not being able to walk into a shop and pick up a game is moot with the ease and convenience of online ordering. I don't mind dropping the cash a few times a year on pricey imports because i don't buy that many games and if I really don't like them, I can sell them with a nominal loss.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:15 am

Acid King wrote:not being able to walk into a shop and pick up a game is moot with the ease and convenience of online ordering.

This is undeniably cool, though. It felt good buying Gradius V in person. That's the only shooter I've picked up and brought to a cash register this decade. The mailbox just isn't the same.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:14 am

Rob wrote:This is undeniably cool, though. It felt good buying Gradius V in person. That's the only shooter I've picked up and brought to a cash register this decade. The mailbox just isn't the same.

I prefer the mailbox to the average moron behind the counter at *insert local videogames store here*.