Why are shmups bigger in Japan?

[doctorx0079]

It occurred to me that the popularity of shmups in the West has gone way way down to where they hardly get released. While in Japan they still get released and played regularly. So why is this anyway? And does it have anything to do with the fact that Japan has arcades and we mostly don't? And why is that? Does it have any relationship to the fact that more people have computers over here? And how is that changing? Okay, discuss.

[GaijinPunch]

My personal take on it is that console gaming took on a whole new breed of consumers with the playstation. The kinda that did not grow up on sprites, shooters, or any thing that most people here did.

No doubt, this phoenomenon happened in Japan, but games were mainstream there long before they were in the west. As such, there wasn't as big of a change in the customer between the generations, so retro games have been able to survive.

Just my take on it. And yes, the fact that they have arcades definitely helps.

[mannerbot]

Those people sell used panties in vending machines. They're just weird.

[SuperGrafx]

Personally, I think part of the reason is the fact that the arcade scene in Japan continues to thrive. Shmups and 2D fighters seem to attract a good number of gamers via this method in Japan, which is not the case here in the US. New releases get decent press and in the case of fighters, they'll sometimes hold tournaments and such by way of Arcadia Magazine events, etc.

[Randorama]

Well:

Shmups aren't big in Japan (they are technically niche, albeit a larger and larger one), and arcades are now something like 40% of a few years ago (in terms of profits, volume of clients, etc.). They are still the "1p genre for excellence", though, as they are usually centered on offering a score-centric experience, with the best player being the coolest guy in town (in a exasperatingly competitive society as Japan). In the last 12 years or so, shmups have been the only games that offered a consistent score-driven competition, as other genres faded into oblivion, in terms of score challenges.

In the meanwhile, westerners are still stuck at how cool Phoenix was (which is blatantly true), and how things shouldn't have changed in the last 20 years or so, or they bitch about how hardcore they are when they worship Cave's antiquate 2D graphics. Seriously though, most of us have suffered the lack of shmups after the last wide releases of important titles from major companies (Raystorm is the last shmup i played in arcades). The few lucky guys who could play shmups in arcades, like DEL or Mills, in these last years, have done surprisingly well, while lacking some of the most complex knowledge on the played title (which are a result of a true arcade scene, in terms of many people playing the same title).

The situation, though, has changed in the last few years, as videos and internet sites have become a good source to obtain know-how on shmups, and thus some people have been able to perform quite well in the field. Also, some of the latest titles in the genre, thanks partially to a numbers of factors not easily identifiable in the immediate moments of this post (but please check Randorama(in post)), have been published outside the speaking gaming niche of Japan, as they provide a relatively simple approach to the issue of scoring, and a friendly learning curve.

In short, yeah, lotsa stuff going on.

[elvis]

America (and the west in general) is years behind Japan in accepting gaming as a non-childish passtime. Even up until a few years ago such things as comics (manga), animation and gaming were considered largely childish passtimes by westerners. Heck, I've got mates who consider anime the equivelent of "Disney kids' movies", despite their 15+ or 18+ ratings, simply because they are animation.

Due to all of the above, it's only recently that the 5-10 year olds of the 80's are becoming the 25-30 year olds of today, and the west begins to gain a mainstream appreciation for gaming. Unfortunately for most of the western mainstream gaming audience there's far less choice in gaming than there is in Japan where it's been a mainstream thing for far longer. Publishers in the west have the same mentality as movie studios: big expensive blockbusters with big profits are the only way to fly. Add that to the Japanese/English language barrier, and 90% of gamers in the west are completely unaware of just how many games are out there.

End result, we exist in a world today where people only buy what's forced apon them. Especially so for the casual gamer. I don't think it's a case of western gamers not liking/wanting shmups. I think it's merely a case that for the vast majority of them, they don't know they exist in the numbers they do, and are too busy getting caught up in the hype of western made games like Halo, Black, etc which in turn are all decided apon by rich men in suits, rather than gamers.

This is not a new thing. Anyone who's played games long enough will know it's been the same for every generation of gamers on every system since the dawn of electronic gaming. And just quietly, I doubt it will go away soon, if ever.

edit: spelling

[GaijinPunch]

Shmups aren't big in Japan (they are technically niche, albeit a larger and larger one),

I've come to the conclusion that they are just not niche in Japan, like people say. They're by no means mainstream, but it is pretty uncommon to find an arcade in an urban area without a single shooting game in it. Even the arcade where my wife is from which is in the middle of fucking nowhere has Donpachi in it.

They do not have the social aspect to them that fighting games have though, so it's harder for game centers to push them. It's not odd to have a very small arcade throw a tournament for it's local players. You only hear about this once in a blue moon for shooters though.

[Valgar]

I don't know what it is, but every person that has visited my Arcade (lol) doesn't give Ketsui / DOJ or whatever shooter I have in there a second glance. It is set to FREE PLAY and no one even gives it a try. On the other hand, everyone will play 3rd Strike.

It boggles my mind, because before coming over they tell me that they like Strikers 1945 (why is it always Strikers?) and games "like that".

If anything I don't think they are very appealing (come on CAVE, make a fucking attract mode), and are too intimidating to newcomers.

[Blade]

End result, we exist in a world today where people only by what's forced apon them. Especially so for the casual gamer. I don't think it's a case of western gamers not liking/wanting shmups. I think it's merely a case that for the vast majority of them, they don't know they exist in the numbers they do, and are too busy getting caught up in the hype of western made games like Halo, Black, etc which in turn are all decided apon by rich men in suits, rather than gamers.

This I completely agree with wholeheartedly. That's why I'd like shmups to get more positive exposure in general. It's not that they don't like them, they just don't know much about them. Why people assume that shmups are niche because people just simply dislike them I have no idea.

[CMoon]

In the meanwhile, westerners are still stuck at how cool Phoenix was (which is blatantly true)

Are you talking about Tezuka's Phoenix manga, or perhaps the God-Phoenix from Gatchaman?

Both truly are cool.

[antron]

In the meanwhile, westerners are still stuck at how cool Phoenix was (which is blatantly true)

Are you talking about Tezuka's Phoenix manga, or perhaps the God-Phoenix from Gatchaman?

Both truly are cool.

this i believe:
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... me_id=9004

[CMoon]

this i believe:
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... me_id=9004

That looks startlingly like a game on the intellivision, but I'm sure it had a different name (and was no doubt a direct rip-off.)

[Ganelon]

In the US at least, hardly anybody even remembers Phoenix.

Anyway, I think the "fashion trend" in gaming has changed enough that the players from today don't really remember anything past the 3D era. Therefore, 2D games probably still look unfamiliar without the nostalgia that people like us have. And it's not only 2D games but 2D genres that didn't exist during the current generation's childhood.

And logically, it doesn't really make sense why new gamers should revert back to this style of simplistic (in its base, not including scoring gimmicks), constrained gameplay anyway when they have GTA, which offers them dozens upon dozens of different things to do and an explorable world.

As mentioned, in Japan, people have a social understanding towards gaming, they have arcades where gamers can meet and talk, and their geography allows a large concentration of people to play in the same spots, and so social formations were developed that as a whole never let go of the genres they loved (peer pressure, in an indirect way).

I think the real question here is why we're still attracted to this genre when by all means, everything is a relic to the past, with visuals that are sometimes a generation behind. And for that, I feel that the simplicity of the core gameplay is what's appealing. Just as many people prefer the restricted options given in a JRPG rather than the freedom provided by CRPGs simply because the experience through the constrained environment feels more exciting or interesting, so too are shooter fans attracted to the shooter's simplicity at an abstract level (which may mask the complex methods needed to score and survive hidden underneath). And as Zen teaches, simplicity should never by itself be taken with a negative connotation.

[the2bears]

Well, they appreciate haiku as a form of poetry. So perhaps there's something in the culture that lends itself to that? I mean, one person's restriction (haiku form, or the shmup genre) is another person's chance to express within the limits set forth. I'm not really making any sense, but the limits actually force more creativity. I suppose.

Bill

[neorichieb1971]

The reason why shmups don't do well in the West is because consoles are sold on what they can do. When the shmup/shooter in question does not push the boundaries of what is expected due to the marketting of that console they deem it a less quality product by default.

Thats about the truth of it.

In Japan, a game that has a popular theme and crappy graphics can sell a shit load of units. Its more about a franchise, a character, a mecha or whatever. In the instance of shmups the attraction is about twitch gameplay or bullet patterns, in America the only shmups that sell decent numbers are by name recognition from the 80's. I believe Japanese are more open minded and value a product on intricate details, where as Westerners won't dive under the surface until they are hooked by advertising or as I said before, name recognition.

[dave4shmups]

The reason why shmups don't do well in the West is because consoles are sold on what they can do. When the shmup/shooter in question does not push the boundaries of what is expected due to the marketting of that console they deem it a less quality product by default.

Thats about the truth of it.

In Japan, a game that has a popular theme and crappy graphics can sell a shit load of units. Its more about a franchise, a character, a mecha or whatever. In the instance of shmups the attraction is about twitch gameplay or bullet patterns, in America the only shmups that sell decent numbers are by name recognition from the 80's. I believe Japanese are more open minded and value a product on intricate details, where as Westerners won't dive under the surface until they are hooked by advertising or as I said before, name recognition.

Agreed about name recognition, however, Americans must be much more 3D crazy then Japanese-look at how many shmups were released on the Saturn in America, compared to Japan. Most people over here just seem to think, with a few exceptions, that if it's not 2D, it's rubbish. People can keep on blaming SCEA all they want; the bottom line is supply and demand-SCEA, like any other business has to be concerned with this, and if there isn't much of a demand for shmups over here, then why would they allow for the release of more then a few more over here? The simple fact of the matter is that there is much more of a demand for 3D games over here then there is for 2D games.

[Arvandor]

I think the real question here is why we're still attracted to this genre when by all means, everything is a relic to the past, with visuals that are sometimes a generation behind. And for that, I feel that the simplicity of the core gameplay is what's appealing. Just as many people prefer the restricted options given in a JRPG rather than the freedom provided by CRPGs simply because the experience through the constrained environment feels more exciting or interesting, so too are shooter fans attracted to the shooter's simplicity at an abstract level (which may mask the complex methods needed to score and survive hidden underneath). And as Zen teaches, simplicity should never by itself be taken with a negative connotation.

Well I know the real reason why I'm still attracted to this genre. Shooters are A: Alot of fun, no matter how much you play them (much higher replay value than a game like GTA or ANY RPG or action/adventure), and B: One of the few places in the gaming universe where I can find a challenge. I'd be more into fighting games than I am now (and I'm big into fighting games) if I had competition, but as it stands, no body around cares enough about them to compete in them, so I find myself with no competition =/ Shooters will always provide me with a challenge when I want to play a game by myself, and they're a blast to play cooperative.

The last few games (read: recentesque releases) that I can recall having even decent challenge ratings, are Viewtiful Joe and Megaman Zero. Both amazing titles =D

Just as a note: I'm not nearly as jaded towards other genres as I sound. I love almost all good video games in any genre, even alot of the dreaded 3D games. I just don't find anything that can compare to a good ol' shooter or puzzle game.

But yeah, that's why I love shooters.

[elvis]

the bottom line is supply and demand-SCEA, like any other business has to be concerned with this, and if there isn't much of a demand for shmups over here, then why would they allow for the release of more then a few more over here? The simple fact of the matter is that there is much more of a demand for 3D games over here then there is for 2D games.

While I appreciate the "supply and demand" style arguments, a part of me can't help but think that sometimes the demand is a little artificial, and helped along by mass marketing.

I wonder sometimes if the demand for shmups and/or 2D games would grow if their exposure and advertising did also.

"Supply and demand" is a black and white phrase, asuming that supply is equal and demand is entirely based on the consumer. We all know that supply is not equal, and demand can be manipulated.

I'm not crying "governement conspiracy area 51 alien invasion" or anything. Just a side comment.

[Rob]

I believe Japanese are more open minded

Famitsu's top 100 Dragon Quests list to oppose.

[Twiddle]

I believe Japanese are more open minded

Famitsu's top 100 Dragon Quests list to oppose.

Seriously, even most Japanese gamers have terrible taste. It's just that shooter fans there are much closer in proximity and are slightly more numerous.

[Blade]

How can you even say that a certain group of people have terrible taste? That's a matter of opinion right there.

If someone is a shmup fan, that doesn't classify them as having bad taste in games. I don't know who fed you that definition.

[neorichieb1971]

I said MORE open minded, not totally open minded.

Every shmup in the Japanese market fetches full price if its listed as such. That states to me the Japanese gaming industry understands a fanbase exists to support full price shmup software. The most expensive shmup in the Western markets goes for approximately half that MSRP! ($40USD)

That states to me that the gaming industry in the West catagorizes shmup software as inferior OR has less of a fanbase.

Its like I was saying to Blade earlier on AOL, shmuppers are like record collectors. They like the design, the intricate details and the end results, but 99.9% prefer and buy CD's. This is because the consumer feels records and shmups are old news.

You can be someone who learns, indulges and experiences.. or you can be a sheep! Most Westerners are sheep who will only learn through the enthusiasm of someone still experiencing the joys of techniques/technologies that are old.

Amen.

[highlandcattle]

First off all I think it's down to basic economics every videogame company in the US or Europe wants to be EA or Rockstar. They all want money as simple as that. None of these companies create a game anymore without serious marketing research with kids and stuff. It is an Industry everybody wants to be Britney not Coco Rosie or whatever underground musicband is your thing. The japanese on the other make shooters purely out of love for the genre,i f you read the EDGE interviews you'll see that they have to take on a lot of coding tasks simply to fund their own shooters. With groups like the behemoth these things might start to work in the west aswell

[Blade]

The japanese on the other make shooters purely out of love for the genre,i f you read the EDGE interviews you'll see that they have to take on a lot of coding tasks simply to fund their own shooters. With groups like the behemoth these things might start to work in the west aswell

Put in Bold for emphasis.

That's the kind of thing I would love to hear more often. When the line between gamer and developer crosses over and they're actually willing to do more for a game because it's not just about money, but about having fun with the game. Sure it's more work, sure capitalistic society says you're not investing in the big bucks, but the point is you're having a blast doing what you love to do.

I'm wanting to read this EDGE magazine more often.

[Shatterhand]

There's one thing that I always thought about. I would like to hear other people opinions on that, as I don't know many american people who also play games.

But I always felt that, in America (And in west in general), people don't want to play challenging games. They don't like the feel of "losing". They always want to win. That's why games developed for the western market are usually easy but long. This way you spend like 50 hours in a game, and you WILL beat it. So you have a sense of acomplising something (After all, you spent a lot of time in the game), but none of that was actually difficulty to do.

I find really amusing how people can easily answer how long it takes to beat a game like Rainbow Six, Doom or Splinter Cell, while if someone asks me how long it takes to beat Dodonpachi, the answer will be "It depends of your skill... maybe you will never beat it".

If you compare western games with eastern games, you can easily notice that.

And I think that's play a big part on about why shmups aren't popular in the west. They are short and hard , the opposite of what american people like to play. They feel frustrated because they keep on losing and losing and losing and losing OR frustrated because the game was too short (I.E. credit-feed ).

I've seen this. I cant understand why it happens, but most of my friends feel frustrated when playing shmups (Or Winning Eleven against me ) because they just keep on losing, losing and losing, without any hope of "victory".

[FRO]

End result, we exist in a world today where people only by what's forced apon them. Especially so for the casual gamer. I don't think it's a case of western gamers not liking/wanting shmups. I think it's merely a case that for the vast majority of them, they don't know they exist in the numbers they do, and are too busy getting caught up in the hype of western made games like Halo, Black, etc which in turn are all decided apon by rich men in suits, rather than gamers.

This I completely agree with wholeheartedly. That's why I'd like shmups to get more positive exposure in general. It's not that they don't like them, they just don't know much about them. Why people assume that shmups are niche because people just simply dislike them I have no idea.

Something to consider here also (in addition to exposure) is the graphics. Most of the games that do really well these days do so because of a two-punch knockout combo: graphics & gameplay. With outlets like G4 & a couple hundred game review websites, consumers are becoming smarter, though that still doesn't take into account the "parents" factor who just blindly buy their kids games based on either ESRB rating or game store employee recommendation.

Consider the following. If Konami had made a concerted effort in magazines to show the excellent graphics of Gradius V (like in the first level w/ the "eye" things), in addition to a campaign on G4, during cartoons & other kid/teen programming, etc. & I think they would have seen increased sales. I'm not sure the same would have been true for Chaos Field, but perhaps Ikaruga for GC could have had a similar impact (though the PS2's more widespread fanbase and installation would have had a major impact on the sales). This would also be an indicator to Sony that 2D gaming (despite wrapped in a 3D sheen) is still very much a viable market & not something they should dismiss as easily as they are now.

[Randorama]

Shmups aren't big in Japan (they are technically niche, albeit a larger and larger one),

I've come to the conclusion that they are just not niche in Japan, like people say. They're by no means mainstream, but it is pretty uncommon to find an arcade in an urban area without a single shooting game in it. Even the arcade where my wife is from which is in the middle of fucking nowhere has Donpachi in it.

They do not have the social aspect to them that fighting games have though, so it's harder for game centers to push them. It's not odd to have a very small arcade throw a tournament for it's local players. You only hear about this once in a blue moon for shooters though.

Yeah, i agree, in the sense that more than a niche, i think they're some kind of...vast minority? From what i can get, they are actually the most popular genre after Bemani, in terms of 1p mode (maybe mahjong games are even more popular, more naked skin?). It would be nice to find out a decent way to measure their popularity, aside from knowing that Cave titles seem to enter the top 10, usually

[D]

It occurred to me that the popularity of shmups in the West has gone way way down to where they hardly get released. While in Japan they still get released and played regularly. So why is this anyway? And does it have anything to do with the fact that Japan has arcades and we mostly don't? And why is that? Does it have any relationship to the fact that more people have computers over here? And how is that changing? Okay, discuss.

I guess marketing wise in Japan they know more about what people want. In the west and in Europe those marketing dudes are clueless and push anything new and with 3D graphics.

Same for games for girls, puzzle games.
The west, US and Europe are losing milions by avoiding female gamers.
I guess nobody wants to make big money or are unaware of possible profits and are scared and feel that Japanese are weird and that if in Japan lots of girls like games there that could never be the case here.
Somebody take note and start a for-girls-only publishing company somewhere and make loads of $'s.

[antron]

this i believe:
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... me_id=9004

That looks startlingly like a game on the intellivision, but I'm sure it had a different name (and was no doubt a direct rip-off.)

Demon Attack

[icycalm]

Someone in this thread said that Japanese gamers talk to each other a lot in the arcades. This isn't true. I've spent a lot of time in arcades in the last year or so, and I've never seen strangers talk to each other. For example, this guy might be playing DOJ and kicking ass, and there might be 4 others watching him, but when he's done he just gets up and leaves. No one congratulates him, no one asks any questions--the people watching don't even make any sounds or gestures of surprise when they see something amazing on-screen.

Or, you know, there used to be huge lines of people waiting to play Espgaluda II on weekends, and they would all sit there and silently stare at the screen for hours, without ever exchaning a word with the people standing next to them. It's all quite sad really. I pity them.