Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Oof, been flat on me back with the flu. 3;
Vanguard wrote:Just cleared Saigo no Nindou. Tough game, as expected of Irem.
Superb showcase of a nightmarishly intense game. Loved the Samurai assassination in st6 there:

Moderately biggu giffu
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Helluva reminder of Saigo's excellence, too. At its best (most everything beween st3 and st7-1), it has a murderous seething like no other sidescroller I know of - it's tense just to watch. Tempo is measured, gravity is lunar, and death is gnashing rabidly from every angle; judiciously-deployed counterattack one's only refuge from the raining shitstorm. I can think of several other sidescrollers that hit similar peaks in bursts, but not Saigo's sustained barrage of withering doom.

And this from a game with staggering player firepower and no bump damage, on top of mild speed. Irem had some alchemic design talents. There is the forehead-slapping pit, of course, but even if you were to write the game off entirely based on that - what a singularly evil gem of sidescrolling the surrounding 99% remains.

Floor=Lava st1+2! I love you Image

Holy fuck @ 6:27 - I knew about that glitch from Squire, but I've never seen it occur so seamlessly. :mrgreen: Brutal, @ blocky-kun. I know all too well how deceptively lethal that motherfucker is when he gets capricious. The floaty air handling really nips into the window for sudden reactions (as in a certain god damn ninja pit).

Speaking of, good job clearing the pit twice at base power. The loss of slowdown-generating shadows and POW grenades makes it even more obnoxious, somehow. Ugh.

Really liked your handling of the final boss's lightning salvos. It's been a while, but now I see that three onscreen appears to be his limit? Your method of going between the second and third looks promising (if I'm not horribly mistaken about his shot limit - apologies if so :oops:).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

BIL wrote:Speaking of, good job clearing the pit twice at base power. The loss of slowdown-generating shadows and POW grenades makes it even more obnoxious, somehow. Ugh.
Thanks! The ninja pit almost never gives me trouble anymore. My route is easy to remember and easy to execute. That time I was mentally rehearsing the final boss fight and forgot there were still a few more ninjas until it was too late. Probably could've cleared the game with two lives in reserve if I hadn't done that, but I kind of like it this way. The down-to-the-wire final boss fight with no powerups and no extra lives makes for a better watch than powered up speedkill would have.
BIL wrote:Really liked your handling of the final boss's lightning salvos. It's been a while, but now I see that three onscreen appears to be his limit? Your method of going between the second and third looks promising (if I'm not horribly mistaken about his shot limit - apologies if so :oops:).
I don't specifically plan to go between the second and third shots, those were just the opportunities that presented themselves. Sometimes he fires three shots in rapid succession and you have to jump over the whole thing. Good observation on the three shot limit, I think you're right.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mycophobia »

What's the policy on belt scrollers/beat em ups in this thread? If they're good to discuss here, then I'm playing the Megaplay version of Golden Axe II. I like it a lot. Music is great and it seems at least a little bit harder than the original arcade Golden Axe (which I just cleared for the first time, Baby's First 1CC I know). The Megaplay version gives you only two lives to start and two life bars per life versus the Genesis version's 3 lives/3 bars. The difficulty level may be set higher too but I base that on nothing really.

A nice change I've noticed is that you can't just walk up and down the screen without getting hit like you can in Golden Axe; the faster enemies will end up clobbering you. GAII also seems a lot more willing to throw more than 3 enemies at you at one time. Anyways I'm just really bad at belt scrollers in general so it's nice to play something at my skill level. I tried playing Cadillacs and Dinosaurs a little while back and that was just not going very well at all lol.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

Congrats on the Golden Axe 1CC.
Beat-em-ups are welcome. BIL gave the official OK a while back.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, beltscrollers along with single-screen and topdown action are A-OK here. They're close in spirit to the headlining NG-style sidescrollers, and although we've had dedicated threads in the past, they tended not to thrive long-term. So they're welcome under Also Starring. :wink: I like my threads comfortably fuzzy. Like a favourite old couch. :cool:

If this thread's controlled expansion has a rough destination, it's probably "action games that could play 1:1 on a Famicom, and aren't on-topic in Shmups Chat." However we're only on Part II of IV, so there's no need to rush things.

I'm very fond of Golden Axe II MD - underrated sequel, imo. It looks like a quickie reheat (those MSpaint sprite edits :shock:), but under the hood, there's loads of very smart tweaks and buffs. Much smoother-playing than the more iconic original. Seriously excellent fantasy/medieval soundtrack too - stirring stuff!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

In the midst of playing CV3 and AD (X68000), decided to play Final Fight 2 on Hard for a bit, and got a 1CC with Carlos.

Image

Despite a few mess ups the run went surprising well. Reached the final boss with 6 lives in stock and lost 2 against him, but that was pretty much in tune with my previous playthroughs.

Overall, there doesn't seem to be much change in the damage enemies deal, or on their HP (perhaps mostly the bosses, as they take about 1/2 of your HP per hit, depending on the attack they use), and the main thing that changes (at least from what I've noticed) is that enemies move faster -- not in the sense that their speed increases, but rather that they spend less time idle in between actions, so you don't have as much leeway as in Normal).

And while playing with Carlos, after using Haggar for a good while, I think I know the reason Haggar doesn't play as nicely as in the first game.
As you know, by pressing up/down/back on the last combo hit your character will throw the enemy backwards, and in FF1 the throw will work as long as you're touching the enemy (even if you're hitting them with the tip of your fist), but in FF2 there's a discrepancy between the regular punching range and this throw range.
This is especially noticeable with Haggar, because he has a larger range than the other characters, so you'll notice he won't perform the throw if you're hitting the enemies from afar.
Only after playing with Carlos today, did I realized that I almost never missed these throws with him, and that the problem must be that range discrepancy, though of course I might be wrong.

-----

On Akumajou Densetsu, I'm stuck on the Fake/Copy Belmont.
I've managed to reach him a couple times, but lost all of them. The stage is damn tough too, and even reaching the boss is a bonafide challenge.
It's also pretty odd that the developers made the spiked presses too overzealous (ie. you have to let them rise a tile above the character's head before you cross, otherwise you're dead), since they were fine in CV1 (in the Medusa's stage, for example).

Gonna have to plow through it though, and hopefully reach the next (last?) stage soon.
Question, does the Fake Belmont remain a Belmont if you fight it with the other characters, or does he change to whatever character you're currently using?

-----

As for AD X68000, still stuck on the Fake/Copy Simon as well.
All this time, I had massive trouble in the tower of dolls, and only rarely made it past them, but recently I discovered that if you don't move while on the stairs, they won't move as well. Any action from you (moving or attacking) will make them move as well, so you still need to be very careful, especially if they're close, as if you whip when one is near you, she'll hit you.
Surprisingly, the section after that. with the mirrors (right before the boss) is pretty mild, but the boss is a different story.
I've fought him some 10 times, and lost every single one of them. He's a real tough cookie.
He's really cool though, with his snake-whip, and the way he waves his tongue when you die.

Also, the music on the Tower Of Dolls is right up there with the Load BGM as the top tracks in the game, for me. It is really well done, and in a game with pretty much all fantastic tracks, that's saying something.
The soundtrack using FM-Synth is also fantastic and gives Yuzo Koshiro's work a run for their money, though I still prefer the SC-55 MIDI tracks.
The only downside of the FM tracks, is that the sound effects take away some channels from the BGM, which is perfectly normal in video games, but a shame because you don't get to listen to the tracks with their full glory during gameplay.

Incidentally, I've re-read the interview with the devs (after a long time, barely remembered it), and one of the answers sheds some light on the high difficulty (or higher than usual), stating that they assumed that the average person who owned the X68000 was a hardcore gamer, and as such the difficulty was balanced for them.

Also, something I didn't quite understand at the time (I had yet to play the game), but now do and is quite amusing (again, only if you've played the game until this point):
shmuplations.com wrote:No one under 18 is permitted in the Tower of Dolls. When people came here during the bug checking everything suddenly got quiet…
Man, the devs back then seem to be really cool, funny people. :lol:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

__SKYe wrote:Gonna have to plow through it though, and hopefully reach the next (last?) stage soon.
Question, does the Fake Belmont remain a Belmont if you fight it with the other characters, or does he change to whatever character you're currently using?
He will indeed change to match your active character. This actually opens up a massive exploit that trivialises non-solo play: basically, any time you're cornered, just switch characters. He'll be forced to break off his attack and change, while you escape with total impunity. He's much more interesting if fought one-on-one, imo. :wink:
I've fought him some 10 times, and lost every single one of them. He's a real tough cookie.
He's really cool though, with his snake-whip, and the way he waves his tongue when you die.
His death sequence is rad too - spoilering because it's just that cool
Spoiler
choking to death while vomiting a torrent of shattered glass is METAL AS FUCK
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Blinge »

BIL wrote:I'm very fond of Golden Axe II MD - underrated sequel, imo. It looks like a quickie reheat (those MSpaint sprite edits :shock:), but under the hood, there's loads of very smart tweaks and buffs. Much smoother-playing than the more iconic original. Seriously excellent fantasy/medieval soundtrack too - stirring stuff!
Is there a resource anywhere for tips/general git gud advice on GAII? Something about that game makes me wanna keep coming back but I really blow at beat 'em ups.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Hm, not sure. It's not a very popular MD beater AFAIK, in comparison to the first game or the Bare Knuckles... I'd be interested to hear mycophobia's approach to it. Offhand, I recall chucking enemies into a nice fat pile, then downthrusting the lot being a reliable tack - been years though, so there might be a fatal flaw or two there. :wink:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by mycophobia »

The best I've done in this game so far is stage 4 on one credit, so I'm pretty bad at it too lol. Uhh...if you're fighting two enemies at once you can get one on either side of you and just dash attack each of them over and over again if you have good timing. I often find it useful to stand against a corner when fighting larger groups of enemies because at least that means nobody's going to sneak up behind you and in the best of situations they'll stupidly file in one at a time. You seem to always get enough magic for the next boss during a stage so don't hesitate to use it. Sorry I can't be more helpful, like I said I still suck at this game and beatemups in general but that's what I've been able to figure out from beating Golden Axe and playing this game for a bit. Normally in cases where I don't really know what I'm doing in a game I'll just look up a replay.

My big wall right now is the four black skeletons they throw at you near the beginning of stage 4. Shit's brutal
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

I tried out the arcade version of Contra, and most of you already now this, but it really doesn't stack up to the NES port. I'm surprised something so mediocre became such a classic. It might be the most improved port of all time! Thank you Umechan!

Everything feels much slower than the NES version, despite being overall more difficult. The worst part is the aiming system. When you change from a cardinal direction to a diagonal, your character slowwllyy adjusts his aim instead of instantly firing wherever you pointed the joystick. Imagine the Metal Slug heavy machine gun's diagonal aiming at about 1/4 the speed and you won't be too far off. A stark contrast to the port's wonderfully responsive controls. The only thing I liked better about the arcade version is that the second half of the game is all one big unbroken level. It's not terrible or anything, but the port is so overwhelmingly superior that arcade Contra's only real value is as a historical curiosity.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

There really isn't much to AC Contra. Even adjusting to the sludgy controls, it's a rare example of an arcade game being too concise. Feels unfinished, with its platform/shooter potential only realised by Umechan Team's masterfully filled-out FC port. I always enjoy my rare revisits, but it's more milestone than bonafide classic - Daimakaimura and Saigo from a year later outclass it, albeit lacking the iconic 2P co-op (a potential again only fully realised by Umechan - hard to work together when you're wrestling with the controls).

AC Super Contra, on the other hand, has some genuine assets. The controls are every bit as unhelpful (the topdown stages will horrify initially), and it's still a very short experience... but where the first game's run/gun feels sparse and halting, Super is nonstop body-shredding carnage. Stages are noticeably flatter, with jumping more an evasive than navigational mechanic - the FC port's more direct equivalents, like st3's jungle, can't hope to compete. Where pursuers are a mild nusiance there, it's frequently all you can do to hack down the onrushing horde here.

As a fellow Holy Diver vet, you may well find the control workarounds trivial - basically, only aim in cardinal directions while on the ground (or in topdown), and jump if you really need a diagonal. Also, get the Machine Gun early in st1, upgrade it at the heli, and keep it - it's the best weapon by miles (you can get Super MG-like results from the Standard by tapping). [Up+Jump] gets you a higher jump which can be a life-saver (good for misdirecting aimed shots).

Still deeply flawed, but worth at least a cursory go for some of the most cathartic zako-slaughtering of the genre. Bonus points for the ludicrously outsized AMUSEMENT MACHINE aesthetic. Explosion sound effects of the gods.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Mortificator »

Duke Nukem for Game Boy Color. Whoever edited the Wikipedia article for Duke Nukem II presents this game as being a "version" of that game, with only the following elements being new and different: weapons, items, levels, graphics, music, vehicles, enemies, and bosses. Which is like saying Super Contra is a "version" of Contra.

Cramped stages and a slow protagonist mean most attacks are undodgable. The best you can do is mitigate damage, kill enemies after getting hit once instead of twice. The mappers loved presenting you with two paths, one leading to a locked door and the other to a key. Imagine going right at a branch, finding a locked door, going back to the branch and going left, finding the key, and backtracking to the door, then imagine this happening multiple times a stage. The music is so bad it's insulting.

So yeah, both DOS games were better, and I don't even like Duke Nukem II.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

Torus Games (developer of the GBC Duke Nukem) is notorious for bad GB music. The GB NBA Jam titles (also developed by Torus) also have terrible music.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

I cleared AC Super Contra today. Surprisingly tough! A 1cc is more in line with Contra 3's hard mode than console Super Contra. Everything is fast-paced and the difficulty doesn't take long to ramp up. It really does feel like there's a missing level or two between the jungle and alien lair, though. The weapons are more balanced than in other Contra games, and I never had a problem with the spreadshot's supremacy, but it's nice to have some options. Everything except for the laser is useful and mitigates the game's control problems in some way or another. The level 2 heavy machine gun in particular is an absolute monster. Makes the Contra 1 spreadshot and the Contra 3 crash missiles seem feeble in comparison. I wish it was in every Contra. In the end though, I stuck to the good old spreadshot. Its shot limit makes it a weaker choice for the aerial diagonal shot tactic, but its wide arc goes a long way towards mitigating how slow and clumsy grounded aiming is. It's still got great speedkill potential, even if it's not as much as the super machine gun. It seems to be the best of the weapons at level 1 as well, so it's always good to go for in a recovery situation.

Despite these virtues, the controls kill the game for me. I would, without question, rather deal with Holy Diver's controls. I feel like I'm struggling against Bill Ryzer's uncharacteristic bout of clumsiness more than the enemies. I've already gone over the slow aiming problem, but pressing up and jump to do a high jump is almost as awkward. Most of the time when you're doing a high jump you want to fire downwards on whatever you jumped over, but the controls do their best to make this unintuitive and error-prone. It seems disappointing that we're a few control issues away from a game that combines NES Contra mechanics with Contra 3's difficulty, but honestly if it had NES Contra controls I don't think it'd be much harder than they are.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Yeah, it's the sense of fighting with one hand behind my back that'll always keep me from wholeheartedly endorsing either AC Contra. Smartly limited player characters are obviously no bad thing, but the surrounding game has to be calibrated likewise. That dynamic is completely out of whack here.

Incidentally I always considered Alisia Dragoon (MD) an example of a Contra-styled fast-action game with haplessly mismatched heavy handling. The effect is a bit different (lifebar), but it's another game where wrangling the controls oversteps the line from intriguing conundrum to full-time preoccupation.

EDIT: Actually, having spent a bit of time on the similarly confused Raf World (FC) just now, there's a subtle distinction. RW and Alisia are examples of functional controls placed in wrong contexts. I would say AC Contras' controls border on outright malfunctioning ala Holy Diver. Granted, unlike eaten inputs, I'm sure sludgy-slow aiming lag has its place in some context... just not this one.

I recently polished off my late 80s/early 90s Sunsoft FC Glory Days set with Hebereke. More like MEHbereke! Bwaaa! (・`W´・) No not really! Perfectly involving little labyrinth 'em up/hop n' bopper, handling with Sunsoft's trademark reassuring heft. Stomping on chumps is bubblewrap-popping compulsive. I'm just a little bummed at the persistently tame bosses and the lack of a properly harrowing final dungeon; on both counts, it feels a tad unfulfilled. Don't expect a killer action/platformer in sheep's clothing ala Gimmick - this really is as goofily easygoing as it looks. The map is perhaps a bit small, compared to Metafight or other FC roamers like Faxanadu and Dragon Slayer IV, but it's also nice and lean with absolutely none of MF's flab or the latter's complications. Quite agreeable to single-sitting clears, particularly with its smooth handling and winningly odd style.

JUDGMENT: A bit mild, and there are bigger FC labyrinths to fathom, but it's perfect for chilling with now and then. Minor ding: making the bombable walls double-thick was asinine. :[ Thankfully demolitions are largely confined to one area - it's no Metroid.

Speaking of Sunsoft, I think I've finally written off The Wing of Madoola. Was revisiting this afternoon, and although I was enjoying the sprint-paced, ruthlessly dangerous discrete stages... the map design feels suspect. Seems possible to fall down to stage 3's lowest level without killing the area boss, stranding yourself with death the only escape. Not cool! I may be mistaken, but I searched pretty hard for a way back up.

I love the concept of deadly yet imperative exploration, upgrades won not by grinding, but hauling ass through witheringly hazardous straits - but the prospect of an instant Game Over because I jumped down Pit B after Door G, instead of first climbing Vine C, chills my enthusiasm. I really want to like this, still. Maybe that's just the Obligatory Sunsoft Cheap Shot™ making an early appearance, haha.

EDIT: Oh dear god. -_- Stage 5, go all the way to the right, hop down the unassuming castle turret (maybe there's treasure, or a doorway!) and BOOM. Stranded, and can't even die this time. Either I'm missing something major, the emulation/ROMZ is fucked, or this thing is a goddamn latent kusoge.

st5 BGM "NO ESCAPE"
Spoiler
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^ tried climbing up the apparent "handholds" ala stage 3's columns, lmao :[ Looks like I'll pass on this one.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

I'm sure I mentioned it before, but Wing of Madoola is pretty shitty. Kitten convinced me to give it another chance, but since she's not hanging around here any longer, I don't know if I will.

Hebereke is cool, but very... casual? It feels very modern for an NES game. Wrote some thoughts on it a few pages, or 10, or 30 back.

EDIT: Here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45206&p=1248320#p1248320
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Ah, kitten no nazo. :3

It was largely your exchanges on Madoola that prompted me to give it another look. I'm pretty stunned by the dead end giffed above, tbh. If the solution really is "reset the console and remember not to look down there next time," that's the game's entire "aggressive exploration" hook down the toilet. Fucking hell, I was considering getting a copy this time yesterday. >_>

I can really love it when a game lets you go way off the rails, jump fences, and get thoroughly up shit creek. Legacy of the Wizard does this particularly masterfully. The trick is, you need to willfully stick your neck out - merely exploring the surroundings won't do it - and death will be close at hand to relieve you, once the experiment concludes. At its absolute best, Wizard will even let you claw your way back up with a little determination, creativity and luck. I will always treasure the time I teleported somewhere dangerous with low MP, foolishly disembarked anyway, then Stomp Booted myself back home on sheer spite and curiosity.

"I've fallen and I can't get up" doesn't cut it. Truly kusoge-tier design! I almost hope I'm missing something obvious. Oh well. Metafight seems to remain my Sunsoft Year Zero for now. I've never even tried Atlantis no Nazo.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Obscura »

BIL wrote:Ah, kitten no nazo. :3

It was largely your exchanges on Madoola that prompted me to give it another look. I'm pretty stunned by the dead end giffed above, tbh. If the solution really is "reset the console and remember not to look down there next time," that's the game's entire "aggressive exploration" hook down the toilet. Fucking hell, I was considering getting a copy this time yesterday. >_>

I can really love it when a game lets you go way off the rails, jump fences, and get thoroughly up shit creek. Legacy of the Wizard does this particularly masterfully. The trick is, you need to willfully stick your neck out - merely exploring the surroundings won't do it - and death will be close at hand to relieve you, once the experiment concludes. "I've fallen and I can't get up" doesn't cut it. Truly kusoge-tier design! I almost hope I'm missing something obvious. Oh well.
One thing about Legacy of the Wizard is that the "jump inside of enemies and you can use them as platforms" means there's very few actual dead-ends. Only way to do it that I know of is to run out of keys AND magic; in most cases, running out of magic requires running out of gold, as well, because of Inns. You'd really have to work to just get 100% stuck, although you *can* put yourself in some situations that require some effort (my old route of "use the little Wyvern dudes in Lyll's area to jump to the volcano area before getting the spring boots, then buy the required items down there" always lead to some weirdness, but you *can* get out, no matter how bad of a situation you put yourself in. I always thought it was weird that something so bizarre was the intended route, before learning about the fake block leading to the gloves near the start.).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Been a long time, my fellows. With game development and a pretty rough semester in the way, I've barely had time to play these games much, let alone post about them.

However! As a member of The Task Force, I have taken it upon myself to play through the entirety of Cuphead in one sitting, in order to give ya'll side scrolling action connoisseurs an idea of how it fares when held against this thread's standards.

So! A rundown:


Structure and Length

The game is divided up into boss battles and run and gun stages which are selected from a hub overworld (the developers called it an overworld, but it's more like a Mega Man stage select with a charming coat of paint). Clearing each set of several bosses you're allowed to access at a time opens the path towards the next "isle" and set of bosses. Each boss and stage is roughly 1-3 minutes long. The boss stages outnumbmer the run and gun stages about 3 to 1.

At first, the game doesn't seem to have an arcade "gauntlet" structure, since it emphasizes taking on each several minute long "bite sized" challenge at a time. It also seems a bit longer intiially than it is: my first playthrough took 2-3 hours. However, a lot of that initial playtime comes down to dying and restarting, which you will be doing a fair amount of on your first playthrough. A 1 life clear of the game can range from 1 hour to 30 minutes, depending on how aggressively you play it. So the game works perfectly well for single sitting gauntlet runs, despite its concessions.


Battle Mechanics

Most of the games handling is nixed from Contra. Your jump, movement, and aiming all feel the same, and are appropriately air tight. You can switch between two weapons ala Contra 3, and also lock your movement position while you aim. Unfortunately, you can't lock your aim position while moving ala Shattered Soldier, but I can't remember it ever being an issue in most boss fights. There are several additional mechanics not found in the source material, however:

-You have the ability to perform a short dash, which works in the air too (think modern fighting games, or Hardcorups Uprising). It's quite a fun mechanic, and I like it here as much as I did in Hardcorps Uprising (one of the games best assets). Air dashing is heavy commitment compared to your turn-on-a-dime Contra jump physics, since you can't alter your trajectory or prematurely end it at all once it starts, but adds a great deal of aerial manueverability and in some boss fights and platforming sequences allows you to pull off some wicked manuevers.

-Super. Not much to explain here. Your super meter goes up by shooting enemies, and allows you to perform a punishing super move when filled. Each weapon has a different super attack, from a temporary safety shield to a devastating melee crush. You can also select one of three ultimate supers to use if you stock 5 meters at once. Good use of these can really boost your speedkill potential.

-Aerial parry. I admittedly made a nauseated face when I heard the word "parry" in the context of an action platformer, but it's a lot different then it sounds. Essentially, you can perform a little mario goomba stomp on rare pink colored projectiles, enemies, and objects in order to recover some super meter. It's not intrusive at all, mostly used well and frequently adds some extra finesse to meter building.

All in all, it all works out pretty well. Nothing too crazy, but fundamentally tight. The air-dash is probably the most unique and fun mechanic.


Randomness Vs Patterns

Here's the part that I like.

Most bosses are composed of several phases with a randomly shuffled pattern of attacks. At first, each attack is relatively slow and simple, so a skilled player won't need to react much. But past the midway point, attacks become quite a bit faster and bosses start mixing in fast melee attacks, random bullet sprays, and random spawned platforms to jump across. The run and gun stages also have fairly random zakos as well.

The randomness is overall a bit subtle, but undeniably present and enough to make sure the game avoids Contra Shattered Soldier style "die to first everything, die to second nothing". There are definitely a lot of bosses that will keep you on your toes. My personal favorite being the dragon:
Spoiler
Image
Absolutely adorable, and absolutely a homage to Contra 3's stage 4 boss. The moving clouds are randomly spawned, and jumping (or performing terrifying air-dashes) through his twin sine-wave fireballs and devious arcing embers is almost (almost) as intense as the battle with his mechanical predecessor.


Overall

I like it! I wouldn't put it in the same S-RANK league as titles like Daimakaimura, Gigantic Army, Contra 3, Ninja Spirit, etc. But I would grade it a big red "A" and place it squarely in the realm of other genre classics that are regularly appreciated and revisited in this thread. I can definitely see myself coming back to it from time to time, for 1 life clears, speedruns, assault courses, etc.
Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by EmperorIng »

I enjoyed my time with Cuphead as well (casually taking out bosses in Expert mode every now and then at the moment). I liked the little bit of randomness in there that assured everything wasn't totally rote memorization, though there still is quite a bit of memorizing that allows you to get through many boss phases with somewhat ease. In this case, this being the devs' (I assume) first project, the simplicity/roughness of some of the attacks when combined actually make them more fraught than something more carefully coordinated. Them bullets man, they're aimed at you. That boss's flying detached head, it's comin' for you. Worry about that while dodging a dozen other things.

That occasionally leads to what feels like some unavoidable hits as bullets congregate, but those moments are few and far between - and the fights are so short it doesn't matter, in the end. A few annoying quirks aside (a few foreground objects blocking your view of the sprite on some screen corners), it's pretty fun. Not the "uber-hard Dark Souls of Souls-games" like idiot journos have made it out to be, but challenging and enjoyable.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Squire Grooktook wrote:Been a long time, my fellows. With game development and a pretty rough semester in the way, I've barely had time to play these games much, let alone post about them.

However! As a member of The Task Force, I have taken it upon myself to play through the entirety of Cuphead in one sitting, in order to give ya'll side scrolling action connoisseurs an idea of how it fares when held against this thread's standards.
Good review. :smile: Sounds like it turned out to be a pretty substantial game.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

Yeah, great review Squire, I'm equally happy to learn that the game does deliver.
EmperorIng wrote:Not the "uber-hard Dark Souls of Souls-games" like idiot journos have made it out to be, but challenging and enjoyable.
I'm sure you're all probably aware of this, but all that Dark Souls comparison seems to have stemmed from a tweet from games journalist Dean Takahashi after he failed miserably at the early game (tutorial included), putting Cuphead somewhere between Mario and Dark Souls.

In my opinion, all this DS comparison crap just served to bring further attention to the game, though, so, all things considered, I assume it ended up being positive for the developers (at the very least may people must have played the game for the sole purpose of proving the journalist(s) wrong :) ).

-----

I'm still not sure if this is fine in the thread, but since it has been mentioned before, I'll post it anyway (as usual, BIL, if it's a no-no do let me know :wink: ).

Been playing Cave Noire (GB) a bit, and can confirm that you do receive a medal (someone mentioned credits before, but perhaps it is only when you beat all quests) after completing Level 6 of a quest (I've only managed to beat L-6 of the monster extermination quest yet), but there are indeed levels above that.
Things get pretty hard, pretty fast, and the key to get further here is really to avoid as much confrontation as you can.

It's worth noting that, although at first glance, the 4 different quests may appear to be just slightly different flavours of the same experience, they actually require different methods to achieve victory.
Quest 1 (monster extermination) is the only one that requires you to defeat enemies to win, and you have to pick your targets wisely. I find it preferable to wait until you have a weapon, and maybe a shield, in order to defeat enemies quicker (or at least pick fights with the weaker enemies only), and pretty much avoid anything that isn't a crab/spider/small flame/etc, since healing items are hard to come by. The larger enemies will destroy you fast, and the skeletons that chase you are also deadly (they'll do around 4~6 damage per hit, so you'll really die fast). I like to save the flame items to defeat more powerful enemies, or when surrounded.

Quests 2 and 4 (gold gathering/free faeries) are perhaps the closest, tactics-wise, since they both just require you to collect enough stuff in order to win (you need to find keys in order to free the faeries, but it's fundamentally the same as collecting gold, only a bit more involving). Key point here is to avoid everything, since you don't need to beat any enemies, and you also gain nothing by doing so. The exception is the small flames when there it fog-of-war, since defeating them will lighten up the whole room (works for every quest).
I would say these are the easiest quests of the lot.

Quest 3 (Idol/Orb collecting) is perhaps the hardest on the long run, due to the fact that they take space in the inventory, leaving you with little room to carry useful items, aggravating with each consecutive level (on Level 4 you need 4 Idols/Orbs, leaving you with only 4 slots left to carry other items).
Two thoughs come to mind: I wonder how the quest plays on the last few levels (you'd run out of space at this rate), and if dropping the Idols after finding them, will keep their total counter (how many you need to clear the dungeon) the same, allowing you to carry stuff as normal -- something I just thought about as I type this. :lol:

On my last run, before closing the game, I was playing the Gold quest on Level 6 (need 25 coins), and had just picked the proper amount, while running around with a measly 3HP searching for the portal to return home, when, in the midst of the fog-of-war, I accidentally walked into a pit, which makes you fall to the next floor and does 4HP of damage. :oops:

Overall a pretty fun game, and with each trek to the dungeon(s) being so short, it's perfect for playing a few runs every once in a while.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

^ Good post! Cave Noire is cool here. :cool: I discovered it through this thread, so it'd be criminal of me to bar it. Despite technically being turn-based, the speedy simplicity, relentless tension and savage unpredictability will most definitely appeal to thrill-seeking action gamers. Favourite memory from my brief time so far was spying a tempting new sword, grabbing it only to discover a GIANT FUCKEN SPIDER right next to it in the darkness, and hauling ass straight into a dead end... but it was cool, because the floor crumbled as I ran, keeping the creepy fucker at bay! I like to think of it as a coinop dungeon crawler. Things can go to hell and back so quickly, haha.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Immryr »

Nah, people comparing cup head to dark souls isn't because of dean takahashi. The DT meme, the dark souls of tutorials, came about because games journalists generally compare everything remotely difficult to dark souls. They must by now realise it's a total meme, but they still keep doing it, and not in a self aware oh so ironic way either.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

Immryr wrote:Nah, people comparing cup head to dark souls isn't because of dean takahashi. The DT meme, the dark souls of tutorials, came about because games journalists generally compare everything remotely difficult to dark souls. They must by now realise it's a total meme, but they still keep doing it, and not in a self aware oh so ironic way either.
Ah OK, my bad then. I came upon that video by pure chance (didn't even know what CupHead existed), and I seem to recall someone saying that after Dean T. had played CH that bad, when he later wrote the game's review he likened it to Dark Souls somehow.
Mind you, I didn't read said review, only saw that Tweet later, and wasn't even aware of the "Dark Souls-like" meme (only knew the 'Git Gud' one :lol: ), so that goes to show just how familiar I am with contemporary video game journalism. :oops:

The comparisons to DT do sound pretty silly, though.
BIL wrote:^ Good post! Cave Noire is cool here. :cool: I discovered it through this thread, so it'd be criminal of me to bar it. Despite technically being turn-based, the speedy simplicity, relentless tension and savage unpredictability will most definitely appeal to thrill-seeking action gamers.
Yeah, it's a really fun little game perfect for bite-sized playthroughs.
It is also somewhat unique, in that, unlike most other turn-based games of this sort, you can avoid most enemies, as long as you don't move to a square adjacent to them (except for the ones that follow you). This allows you to walk by some nasty enemies if you're careful enough.
It's also cool how most enemies have their semi-unique behaviour (either go left-to-right, top-to-bottom, follow you around, walk in a square motion, etc), with some notable mentions being the reapers, which will only move when you cross their line of movement, and will keep going until they stop, thegiant bat that moves in an infinity-symbol motion, the zombie-like-thing that actually runs away from you, and of course, the cloud-like enemy that will not hurt you, but will follow you around and impede your passage. They even put the Mimics/Canniboxes/Chest-enemies which is a nice touch.
BIL wrote:Favourite memory from my brief time so far was spying a tempting new sword, grabbing it only to discover a GIANT FUCKEN SPIDER right next to it in the darkness, and hauling ass straight into a dead end... but it was cool, because the floor crumbled as I ran, keeping the creepy fucker at bay! I like to think of it as a coinop dungeon crawler. Things can go to hell and back so quickly, haha.
Haha, that's some luck, I usually draw the short end of the stick, and either die, or take a nice chunk of damage. :lol:
It's also pretty tense, when you're close to the target goal (or indeed you've achieved it, and are looking for the exit) with 1HP or thereabouts, and you have to try really hard to avoid every enemy.

It's also fun (and not so fun sometimes) when you walk into a room and there's an enemy right in front of you, and you have to hightail it out of there fast. You can waste a couple turns in the other room, though, and the enemies will move from their position in the next room you enter.

Another thing I've discovered is that while you can drop the Boulder to block an enemy's path, if you drop it into a pit, it will create a foothold/ground tile. I haven't found it terribly useful so far, but it may come in handy sometime in the future.

The most uncool thing, though, are the Idols/Orbs that also appear in the other quests, but are completely useless (at least I haven't found them to do anything other than playing a jingle), when you could find some better items instead.

Those gigantic, 4-tile Hydras/Dragons/Cyclops-things are damn imposing, though. 8)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

It's cool to see strong praise for Cuphead here. I'm definitely interested in the game - looks like it has some pretty phenomenal bosses - but I have been a little put off by the bosses all being distinct challenges with no connective tissue or anything (not that I'm saying this shouldn't have been a boss rush game or that there needed to be more levels, though). Will absolutely give the game a shot at some point though.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by FinalBaton »

Cave Noire is on my radar big time, I'll be playing that one sooner than later. Retail copies aren't cheap though, so I don't think I'll be picking one up :cry:

I usually don't emulate but I guess I'll have to make an excetion for that one.
(If I had a Gameboy Everdrive then I could use that. but alas, I don't... and I'm not sure I want a repro either)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by __SKYe »

FinalBaton wrote:Cave Noire is on my radar big time, I'll be playing that one sooner than later. Retail copies aren't cheap though, so I don't think I'll be picking one up :cry:

I usually don't emulate but I guess I'll have to make an excetion for that one.
(If I had a Gameboy Everdrive then I could use that. but alas, I don't... and I'm not sure I want a repro either)
It's a pretty fun little game, that much like its roguelike brethren will kill you over and over again. :lol:

It is a fairly simple/basic game though, so it might not be worth it to pay big money for it (or at least compared to other, more substantial games, in terms of gameplay depth/play time), but I'd say it is at the very least worth taking a look (using emulation).

Incidentally, I managed to get 3 of the medals (by beating each quest's Level-6) and am only missing the Idols/Orbs one.
By the way, dropping the Orbs after picking them up won't work, as the counter will also drop by 1, so you'll need to lug all 6 of them (in Level-6), leaving little inventory space remaining.
Very nearly got the medal on this quest, only needing another Orb. I had 8HP (a good amount, and most of the time enough to, at least, soak a single enemy attack), and I was against one of those Knights (basically like the skeletons that follow you, but with more HP and attack power). I had to fight it, because he was guarding a chest that I'm fairly positive contained the last Orb, and went to him and used my fancy Fire attack item. It does 13HP of damage, and the Knight has 14HP, but I figured that, since I had 8HP, it should be enough to take a single hit from him, and then I'd be able to kill him in the next move.
Needless to say, bad move, he attacked me and did 10HP of damage, so game over. :cry:

I'd rate this quest the hardest of them all (even if I died that last time because I underestimated the enemy), because I had to drop precious items including the sword and shield, and use restorative items early, since I couldn't carry them anyway.
I find that the most useful items to have near the end, are the fire spells/items, since even with a good sword, you'll never be able to deal as much damage as the Fire attack, and will receive damage from enemies as well. The bad side, is that without a shield and/or potions, you'll take heavy damage and have no way to restore HP.

Much like regular roguelikes, this limited inventory and tradeoffs that must be made, really make for a tense, but quite rewarding experience.

EDIT:

Finally got the last medal, and the credits do roll after getting all 4.

ImageImageImageImage

The faeiries' quest is the easiest of them all in my opinion, because they will destroy every monster in the current room when you free one. Also managed to beat Level-7 of this quest.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Vanguard »

__SKYe wrote:Finally got the last medal, and the credits do roll after getting all 4.
Nice job! Cave Noire is a fun little game. It's on the shallow side for a roguelike, though it easily makes up for that with makes up for that with how fast and high-consequence everything is.

I like how it's fundamentally meant to be approached almost like a Lolo-esque puzzle game, except not every puzzle has a clean solution and most of the game is intuiting which losses to take and risks to bet on. The RPG elements are very well done too. Like when you spend the first half of a mission avoiding trouble as much as possible, maybe taking damage you can't return or missing out on items you wanted to check out in the process. But once you get some good stats and equipment it leads to a cathartic second half where you pay the enemies back and take whatever you want by force. The fact that your character becomes a little bit stronger in later missions is nice too. Even though the overall difficulty is higher, just the fact that I have the option to tackle rooms I'd have avoided earlier feels like a reward. It's really unique and I'd like to see similar mechanics used in a more fleshed out adventure game someday.
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