Why can't religious people lighten up a bit? A polite rant

[Icarus]

Interesting thread.
Got an urge to play Black and White now. ^_-

[Super Laydock]

I was raised in a primarilly Protestant community, my parents are atheists who are willing to let me choose my own religion (they took me to church for months because I wanted to know more about Christianity and I still have the bible I bought during that period), and I don't believe in God because nobody has ever given me a convincing reason to. I don't subscribe to the "if I don't like it then it must not be real" school of thought... if you gave me proof of God's existence then I'd believe it, whether he hates gays or not. However, as of yet I've seen no more proof for God's existence than I have for the Greek pantheon, Hindu deities, or Scientology. So, can you give me a reason for believing in Christianity above any of those? If not, then tell me why I should believe it above those anyway.

If there was "proof" that you are looking there would be no need for faith, yet there are many hints hidden with humanity. Like the way we behave, how we feel, our consciences, and the list goes on. The problem is unless people have a relationship with God, these things will have no meaning for a person. My faith didn't come from some supernatural experience, but from knowledge which led to understanding which led revelation.

Still waiting for the reason on why the Christian religion deserves your believe above all others including the other monotheist religions in this world. What sets it above Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or ways of life like Budhism?

This is the purpose of missionaries

OMG such arrogance!
A case of my religion is superior to yours. Everyone not believeing in the Christian "story" has got to be converted...for the fine goal of saving their poor souls of course.
You were born at least 500 years to late.

, and while there are certainly people who have died without ever hearing about Christianity, I'd wager almost anyone over age 7 has been told about and given the opportunity to believe in a monotheistic deity characterized like the Christian God.

So being Muslim and believing in the same God, just not in the whole "Jesus-son-of-God-dying-for-all-sins-of-humanity" thing does get you a place in afterlife as well. I mean being monotheist and all.
Or does one again specifically have to believe in one of the Christian variants of monotheism?

[Damocles]

I was raised in a primarilly Protestant community, my parents are atheists who are willing to let me choose my own religion (they took me to church for months because I wanted to know more about Christianity and I still have the bible I bought during that period), and I don't believe in God because nobody has ever given me a convincing reason to. I don't subscribe to the "if I don't like it then it must not be real" school of thought... if you gave me proof of God's existence then I'd believe it, whether he hates gays or not. However, as of yet I've seen no more proof for God's existence than I have for the Greek pantheon, Hindu deities, or Scientology. So, can you give me a reason for believing in Christianity above any of those? If not, then tell me why I should believe it above those anyway.

If there was "proof" that you are looking there would be no need for faith, yet there are many hints hidden with humanity. Like the way we behave, how we feel, our consciences, and the list goes on. The problem is unless people have a relationship with God, these things will have no meaning for a person. My faith didn't come from some supernatural experience, but from knowledge which led to understanding which led revelation.

so if we accept god and the goddidit explanation THEN we'll see evidence of him.
but if we don't believe in god then the evidence will look like a product of the same natural laws that are also responisble for all the things that aren't 'evidence'
...
...
that sounds kinda like the evidence for god is self deception to me.

and if all the 'evidence' relates to human behavior then i'd like you to take this up with the cognitive psychologists, evolutionary psychologists, game theorists, economists, sociobiologists and plain old normal psychologists who all seem to be able to explain it all pretty well with out invoking the supernatual

My Psych B.A. was at a Catholic College. Surprisingly, the curriculum for the department was relatively unaffected by the school itself. As such, there were a lot of religious studies majors and, more predominantly, youth ministry majors that were put off by their required psychology classes. I remember in one of my final classes, History and Systems, where we did, in fact, cover the earliest forms of thinking leading to psychology. The philosophers and such. Anyway, I guess the point of my post is that there were always one or two people in the class that just couldn't wrap their head around the fact that they were in a psychology course, not a religion course. As such, they disputed nearly every single topic. Get them on the idea of consciousness? Hooboy.

[Nuke]

This is the purpose of missionaries

To requote myself quoting:

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
-- Annie Dillard, 'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek'

[Ramus]

Ever notice that when religion comes up in a thread, there is always someone who gets their panties in a wad when someone says they don't believe in God and/or Jesus? Plus, there's always the atheist who likes to make points using reason and logic that the "Christian" tries to counter with faith. These topics are hilariuos.

Wait a minute while go get some more popcorn and diet coke...

Okay, please continue with the show.

[Nemo]

and if all the 'evidence' relates to human behavior then i'd like you to take this up with the cognitive psychologists, evolutionary psychologists, game theorists, economists, sociobiologists and plain old normal psychologists who all seem to be able to explain it all pretty well with out invoking the supernatual

They can explain how, as in A+B=C, but they can't explain why, as in why is there A and B in the first place. For instance, it's simple to understand that when someone does something you like, that makes you happy, but what is the purpose of happiness or any emotion.

not perfect, just better.
and if christian goals DON'T include trying to make everyone's life better then thats just one more reason not to be one.

It's about understanding our limitations and recognizing the need for God. Where did I say you shouldn't try to make life better for others?

edit: also if i had faith in humanity i wouldn't be trying to make it a better place, i'd simply let it follow it's own course.

That's just ignorant, imagine if every thought like you did.

so as long as your under 7 years old your just an acceptable loss?

Anyone under 7 would automatically go to "heaven".

there is however a fine line between saying that gays and those who aren't christians are heathens or sinners who are doomed to hell and promoting hatred and discrimination. a line that has been crossed repeatedly throughout history

You have me confused with someone else, never even said anything close to this.

So in the middleages when the church was huge in Europe and it did all these cruelties it had nothing to do with the imperfectness of humans.

Uh yeah, that's the point.

-Child molesters have the responsibility to inform others of the possibilities.
-Murderers have the responsibility to inform others of the possibilities.
-Muslims have the responsibilitity to question others and if needed even kill others because their koran says so, interpreted by some.

Ofcourse you'll have to imagine that they all worship their specific gods.
Which we can't question cause there's no proof.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I believe I already mentioned it early on that anyone's faith that promotes violence is not righteous.

the goal of humanists is a utopia society

What?

It's not? If the goal of humanists isn't a perfect society, then what are they ultimately striving for?

Okay, everyone claiming to be a "live and let live" Christian: Nemo is the reason many people automatically assume Christians are all obnoxious. If you want to blame someone for all Christians getting the "self-righteous nanny state loving ego-centric bullshit artists" label when it clearly does not apply to all Christians, blame people like Nemo for being so fucking loud and for sucking all the dignity out of it. It's easy to forget that not every Christian is like this when the ones that are make such an effort to shove themselves into every part of your life.

I respect the faiths of other people, even if I don't believe in them or agree with the reasoning behind it. But I do not, in any way, respect the "EVERYONE MUST BE CONVERTED TO MY WAY FOR THEIR OWN GOOD" branches of any religion, and never will. They annoy everyone who isn't them, and just serve to make their religion look worse.

Wow, you clearly have blown what I said way out of proportion. I said Christians have a responsibility to inform others about God, as in you present people with the knowledge and allow them to decide, I never said anyone should be forced to be converted. I also said people shouldn't sit idly while others commit wrongful behaviors, that doesn't mean you should go and kick that person's ass, it means you should try to right the wrong in a positive way.

[Nemo]

Still waiting for the reason on why the Christian religion deserves your believe above all others including the other monotheist religions in this world. What sets it above Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or ways of life like Budhism?

I already mentioned that my faith comes from a couple of sources, not just Christianity, reason being, there is a lot of overlap and truth between different religions. I believe Jesus is the example of how we should live, hence why a primary source of my faith is Christianity.

A case of my religion is superior to yours. Everyone not believeing in the Christian "story" has got to be converted...for the fine goal of saving their poor souls of course.
You were born at least 500 years to late.

No, it's more like an example of spreading the message of God, I don't believe in forcing anyone to be converted to anything.

So being Muslim and believing in the same God, just not in the whole "Jesus-son-of-God-dying-for-all-sins-of-humanity" thing does get you a place in afterlife as well. I mean being monotheist and all.
Or does one again specifically have to believe in one of the Christian variants of monotheism?

Well my God doesn't want people to wage jihads and kill anyone they consider infidels, so if your form of Islamic faith believes that, then you don't believe in my God.

[sethsez]

the goal of humanists is a utopia society

What?

It's not? If the goal of humanists isn't a perfect society, then what are they ultimately striving for?

They want to make society more livable for everyone. That doesn't mean they have pipe dreams of a perfect utopia. There's no "final goal."

Okay, everyone claiming to be a "live and let live" Christian: Nemo is the reason many people automatically assume Christians are all obnoxious. If you want to blame someone for all Christians getting the "self-righteous nanny state loving ego-centric bullshit artists" label when it clearly does not apply to all Christians, blame people like Nemo for being so fucking loud and for sucking all the dignity out of it. It's easy to forget that not every Christian is like this when the ones that are make such an effort to shove themselves into every part of your life.

I respect the faiths of other people, even if I don't believe in them or agree with the reasoning behind it. But I do not, in any way, respect the "EVERYONE MUST BE CONVERTED TO MY WAY FOR THEIR OWN GOOD" branches of any religion, and never will. They annoy everyone who isn't them, and just serve to make their religion look worse.

Wow, you clearly have blown what I said way out of proportion. I said Christians have a responsibility to inform others about God, as in you present people with the knowledge and allow them to decide, I never said anyone should be forced to be converted. I also said people shouldn't sit idly while others commit wrongful behaviors, that doesn't mean you should go and kick that person's ass, it means you should try to right the wrong in a positive way.

This is a euphemism for "talk about Jesus in a vaguely condescending way until everyone in a ten mile vicinity wants to die just to escape the conversation."

And people know about God. If someone lives in America and is more than three weeks old, it's safe to assume they are aware of Christianity. And yet, for some unknown reason, God Soldiers still act like the religion is an underground cult in Rome that's being persecuted by the powers that be. You don't need to spread the word any more, because the word has already been spread, for quite a few centuries now. You're not trying to spread knowledge, you're trying to convert. Let's call a spade a spade. If you only cared about people "knowing the message" then you wouldn't need to say anything because it's already common knowledge.

[Randorama]

WASP people are so awesome, i'd add

[sethsez]

Edit: nevermind, I'm not getting sucked into that again. It's not worth it.

[magnum opus]

and if all the 'evidence' relates to human behavior then i'd like you to take this up with the cognitive psychologists, evolutionary psychologists, game theorists, economists, sociobiologists and plain old normal psychologists who all seem to be able to explain it all pretty well with out invoking the supernatual

They can explain how, as in A+B=C, but they can't explain why, as in why is there A and B in the first place. For instance, it's simple to understand that when someone does something you like, that makes you happy, but what is the purpose of happiness or any emotion.

yes we do. its a question of conditioned response. happiness for instance is mostly dopamine and a couple other chemicals.
you do things that make your life (or what your head interprets as) better you feel happy, encouraging you to continue in that vein.

not perfect, just better.
and if christian goals DON'T include trying to make everyone's life better then thats just one more reason not to be one.

It's about understanding our limitations and recognizing the need for God. Where did I say you shouldn't try to make life better for others?

again we do understand our limts and are merely trying to make it better. and you didn't say you shouldn't try to make the world better but you did imply that humanists are wrong for trying to improve society...

edit: also if i had faith in humanity i wouldn't be trying to make it a better place, i'd simply let it follow it's own course.

That's just ignorant, imagine if every thought like you did.

then more people who recognize that we have a 10000 year history of lying and killing each other in new and creative ways would try to improve humanity
and people who like the status quo and expect it to continue that way would do nothing?

although i never said anything about the universality of my views notice my clever use of the first person pronoun 'I'

so as long as your under 7 years old your just an acceptable loss?

Anyone under 7 would automatically go to "heaven".

why? because they don't know about god? in which case there's no age limit and no reason to tell them, infact if ignorance of god gets you into heaven it would seem that the best way to get people there is to keep them as ignorant of the idea as possible.
and if just because they're 7, ie little kids, i must of missed the part in the bible that said that. shit it wasn't till the middle ages that unbaptized babies got to go to LIMBO.

there is however a fine line between saying that gays and those who aren't christians are heathens or sinners who are doomed to hell and promoting hatred and discrimination. a line that has been crossed repeatedly throughout history

You have me confused with someone else, never even said anything close to this.

i never said YOU do, don't be so egotistical.

i was talking about 1. an actual fine line. and 2. a significant and very noisy amount of people that also feel it is a christians duty to inform others of god.

-Child molesters have the responsibility to inform others of the possibilities.
-Murderers have the responsibility to inform others of the possibilities.
-Muslims have the responsibilitity to question others and if needed even kill others because their koran says so, interpreted by some.

Ofcourse you'll have to imagine that they all worship their specific gods.
Which we can't question cause there's no proof.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I believe I already mentioned it early on that anyone's faith that promotes violence is not righteous.

who are you to decide what makes a faith righteous?

[Randorama]

Edit: nevermind, I'm not getting sucked into that again. It's not worth it.

You're already knee-deep in it, honestly, and i can't see how can you get out of it. I should use DRT to see how powerful in scope this it can be, Hans Kamp would punch me in the face

But yeah, WASP bible-thumpers vs. WASP wannabe humanists: fun forever!

Beside that, you're all abominable sinners that will bow down before Rank, so know your sins!

[sethsez]

They can explain how, as in A+B=C, but they can't explain why, as in why is there A and B in the first place. For instance, it's simple to understand that when someone does something you like, that makes you happy, but what is the purpose of happiness or any emotion.

Positive and negative reinforcements have pretty obvious benefits. Positive emotions encourage us to actively pursue what causes them, negative emotions cause us to avoid them. The evolutionary benefit of "being chased by a predator feels bad, reproducing feels good" is pretty obvious. People who aren't capable of experiencing these emotions (including negative ones) tend to have many, many problems. Of course, these emotions developed for humans many thousands of years ago, so they tend to activate at very stupid things now.

[sethsez]

WASP bible-thumpers vs. WASP wannabe humanists

vs. self-hating pseudo-intellectual "edgy" WASP

Oh, to be 14 again.

But seriously, you're a common internet troll. Feel free to join to discussion if you have anything to actually, you know, say. If you want to turn it into another one of your cute "white people are so stupid" tirades, take it somewhere else where they might find your bait appetizing.

[magnum opus]

They can explain how, as in A+B=C, but they can't explain why, as in why is there A and B in the first place. For instance, it's simple to understand that when someone does something you like, that makes you happy, but what is the purpose of happiness or any emotion.

Positive and negative reinforcements have pretty obvious benefits. Positive emotions encourage us to actively pursue what causes them, negative emotions cause us to avoid them. The evolutionary benefit of "being chased by a predator feels bad, reproducing feels good" is pretty obvious. People who aren't capable of experiencing these emotions (including negative ones) tend to have many, many problems. Of course, these emotions developed for humans many thousands of years ago, so they tend to activate at very stupid things now.

i really should have included chemists too when i made my list

[Randorama]

WASP bible-thumpers vs. WASP wannabe humanists

vs. self-hating pseudo-intellectual "edgy" WASP[/quote]



Technically speaking, i'm WICCA (White Italian Culturally Comprehensive Atheist), so you guess wrong as always. Beside that, please continue with your verbose and pointless "debates", i'm trying to rekindle the flame between you and Nemo

Oh, to be 14 again.

Ohhh, you can do better than that, c'mon!

[CMoon]

Ugh, can we talk about just one thing at a time.

Sorry Rando, but throwing in the WASP thing (at least half of that acronym is racial) is too much for me to deal with at the moment. Between my hispanic students who don't actually recognize their european ancestory and hate 'white people', and the african american students who believe all the white kids had life handed to them on a silver platter, I think I'm just about done with the race card.

So if we can just maybe throw out the WAS of Wasp and deal with the P part for now. That's enough for today, thankyou.

[sethsez]

Beside that, please continue with your verbose and pointless "debates", i'm trying to rekindle the flame between you and Nemo

At least Recap could stick to the topic when he trolled. And as much as I dislike what Nemo is saying, he too is sticking to the topic. You're just being an idiot for the sake of stirring shit up, and to show everyone just how above this you are.

Nobody's impressed. Shoo.

[Randorama]

Ugh, can we talk about just one thing at a time.

Sorry Rando, but throwing in the WASP thing (at least half of that acronym is racial) is too much for me to deal with at the moment. Between my hispanic students who don't actually recognize their european ancestory and hate 'white people', and the african american students who believe all the white kids had life handed to them on a silver platter, I think I'm just about done with the race card.

So if we can just maybe throw out the WAS of Wasp and deal with the P part for now. That's enough for today, thankyou.

I realize that i actually hate pink people. I mean, northern europeans are all pink, while southern european tend to be actually white. Since of late i'm having sex with women from different european zones, this is pretty obvious! (In fact i show my race-awareness by saying "show me your white, baby!"). Since i'm also metrosexual, i probably have a form of self-loathing repressed gayness in me...I think i should open a latex (a program, a name!) sheet and try to do some Veltman's calculus of presuppositions about this. Would you think it would be more badass as a reasoning if i cough up weird formulas? : ?

(Random note of the day: There can't be a god if a program designed to hyphenate doesn't do it right, damn ).

[sethsez]

Well, self-loathing combined with a very large ego certainly does sound pretty gay to me. I've never met a gay man in my life who doesn't fulfill both of those, and I've met a lot.

The women throw a wrench into it, though. Maybe you're a homo in a straight man's body? It would certainly make arguing with you simpler since I know how to deal with the gays instinctively.

[howmuchkeefe]

sethsez - Rando might be playing the part of Jack Wilson, and you the part of Frank Torrey.

[CMoon]

Actually, working with intercity kids I have been told that I am 'the most REAL white person they've met', and subsequently labeled 'Ghetto White.'

I've also been told by them I'm an asshole and a half.

For purposes of a better acronym than these other anti-insect oriented ones, I'm am now currently relabeling myself as:

GWAR

That's right, Ghetto-White Agnostic Rectum (that's almost as good as 1.5 assholes)

And yes, you're all hookers.

[sethsez]

You had to stretch that a bit, but for the acronym GWAR I'd say it's worth it.

[CMoon]

You had to stretch that a bit, but for the acronym GWAR I'd say it's worth it.

Yeah, it'd have been so much easier if I was a Republican or a Reptile (hell, hard not to be both...har!)

[sethsez]

This thread should now be about Gwar.

[CMoon]

This thread should now be about Gwar.

INCORRECT!

[howmuchkeefe]

I knew that coonskin codpiece I made would come in handy someday!

[sethsez]

Or quite possibly the cheesiest band to ever exist:

[CMoon]

[Rob]