1080p plasma > 4K OLED for 1080p?

[andykara2003]

I have a question for the AV experts - I use a Panasonic GT30 plasma as my gaming TV for 720p/1080p games that I'm looking to swap out for a 4K OLED in the nearish future. My concern is whether the older 1080/720 games will look as good on the OLED as the plasma. I know the blacks will be better on the 4K OLED but a more important factor to me is that will the image look as clean and crisp?

I love the forgiving yet clean, pixel-perfect look of 1080p games on the plasma and I'm concerned that the upscaling of these games on the OLED will degrade that somewhat. Even a small step down might persuade me to keep the plasma as a dedicated 1080p/720p TV. In an ideal world, of course, I'd prefer to have one TV for everything from 720p to 4K.

I hate bad upscaling - as an example I played some 1080p content on my friend's LG 4K LED and the results were absolutely abysmal - smeared is how I would describe the effect.

I realise that these LG LEDs aren't well known for their great upscaling, but I'm wondering if the current OLEDs will be good enough at this - and crucially if it might actually be impossible for upcoming OLEDs (even the Sonys) to quite match the pixel-perfect look of the plasma in 1080p - will it look either slightly overly pixellated or slightly smeared or soft in comparison?

I have a feeling that the negative aspects of this upscaling will perhaps have less of an impact for video - but will be more critical for video games where you want to preserve the sharp edges of graphical elements without softening or over-pixelation.

I'd really appreciate any wisdom on this..

[bigbadboaz]

I don't have the hands-on with OLEDs you're looking for but have had the same concerns. I'm currently looking to get the outgoing 1080p LG OLED rather than go to 4K specifically to avoid any upscaling of the 1080p standard. It helps I don't give two shits about fucking 4K .

I remember quite well how hard it was to get decent SD performance during the original HD transition and have carried that lesson forward. There really is no guarantee when moving to a new standard that manufacturers will have done much at all to preserve the integrity of older standards. As long as you have doubts, I would hold out on a purchase until you have actually gotten eyes-on experience with the exact set you want.

A related issue you didn't mention is that motion performance may suffer on the OLED. Refresh rate is not the only factor here; the way all current OLEDS process images is basically the same as how LCDs do it and not at all similar to plasma refresh. It's possible that even if satisfied with the upscaling, you may perceive more motion blur on your new OLED - particularly with 2D scrolling backgrounds - than with the plasma.

It sounds like you're not in a position where the old TV has to go out the same day the new one comes in. At the very least, I would allow yourself a side-by-side testing period. But truly, consider just holding on to the Panasonic. You have a very, very good set which performs as you like. The huge OLED upgrade is more for someone coming from a mass-market LCD, where the change would be undeniable. For many people, a late plasma would already be past the point of diminishing returns. Add in the fact that there are areas that might be actual downgrades, and the proposition is questionable.

[bobrocks95]

The good news is that once more powerful FPGAs become cheap enough for hobbyist scalers, a 720p/1080p to 4K integer scaler will be super easy to use, since it would avoid all the varying resolutions and sync filtering stuff that the OSSC has to deal with. Digital formats are standardized and will be a lot easier to work with.

[Josh128]

Mathematically, you can get perfect integer upscaling from 1080p to 4K-- each 1080p pixel can be built from 4 4K pixels. If done correctly, it should not have any added upscale blur at all, indeed it might actually look a bit sharper/grainier.

Of course, depending on the set, some funky/non-integer scaling algorithms may be used. Best thing you can do is bring a laptop with an HDMI out to a store that has the set you are interested in, set the res to 1080p and check it out before you buy!

[RGBSource]

I commented on this over here:

viewtopic.php?p=1273750#p1273750

LG C7 in PC mode + OSSC/HDMI mod is the best currently available and flips the > to a <. I've tested the NTM in 720p on the C7 and it looks similar to 1080p (no ringing or softness). I don't see any reason not to pick up a C7 other than cost, especially if you're using an older flatpanel (regardless of panel tech).

Here's Bahn Yuki's OSSC line 5x demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JusqkucU1dw

While OLEDs are S&H refresh, they don't have the plasma yellow/blue phosphor trails (probably already ok with you), and ABL is less severe. The input lag on the C7 (21ms) looks to be an improvement over your GT30 (~32ms).

[andykara2003]

Thanks guys - so the Panasonics do a true integer scale. Trouble is I think I remember reading that even though the scaling is clean, this actually gives *more* pixellated looking image than the equivalent image on the 1080p screen which is not what I want. So you either have this overly pixellated look (great for sharp 240p from a scaler but not as 'nice' as native 1080p) or interpolated messed up image like most 4K TVs - as XYGA says: "most sets on the market apply a very basic undefeatable interpolation that breaks the integers".

Am I off base with this? If not, I'm leaning towards keeping the Plasma and avoiding 1080p on the OLED.

RGBsource - That LG looks very clean with upscaled 240p but like I say, I'm wondering whether the TV would still look slightly more pixellated than the plasma when displaying graphics from a 1080p console?

[RGBSource]

RGBsource - That LG looks very clean with upscaled 240p but like I say, I'm wondering whether the TV would still look slightly more pixellated than the plasma when displaying graphics from a 1080p console?

That's really tricky to describe. There is an ever so slight softness due to how the RGBW sub-pixel structure works, but I think you might be ok with it. You just need to bring a 1080p console to a store, set it to PC mode, and give it a test drive! Stores in my area are cool with bringing in consoles to test - obviously you'd need to have some report with an experienced sales person at said store first.

[andykara2003]

Sure I think you're right, the only way to be certain is to see it for myself in store. I'll call around our local stores & see any are OK with me connecting up some consoles in 720p and 1080p to their OLEDs.

Hopefully someone will eventually build a really decent and fast upscaler as bobrocks95 suggested - might be a while though..


Edit: forgot to say thanks bigbadboaz that was very helpful :)

[Xer Xian]

I used to worry about 1080p to 4K upscaling as well and wondered if a 1080p OLED was ever going to come out. As Bigbadboaz suggested, it eventually did, but now I've also stopped worrying about this. The way I see it is - there's nothing that inherently distinguishes 1080p content from others (as opposed to 240p or even 480i), and there's a decent chance that a few manufacturers will eventually realize they can employ easy, no-frills integer scaling for 720p and 1080p (at least under the game mode setting).

Yes, the different sub-pixel structure of LG's OLED's could be a potential nuisance but really, is the sub-pixel structure even remotely visible on 4K panels at anything but the shortest distances?

And as Bobrocks pointed out, even if manufacturers fail us at that, hopefully Marqs or some other community member can devise an OSSC2 which is able to line-multiply up to 4K

[RGBSource]

The good news is that once more powerful FPGAs become cheap enough for hobbyist scalers, a 720p/1080p to 4K integer scaler will be super easy to use, since it would avoid all the varying resolutions and sync filtering stuff that the OSSC has to deal with. Digital formats are standardized and will be a lot easier to work with.

Here's the bad news (from Kevtris):
1. Only the $200-$400 FPGA range and above has SERDES fast enough to "poop" out that many pixels
2. No 18Gbps HDMI transmitters are available for sale - current 18Gbps transmitters are integrated into ASICs

Sure I think you're right, the only way to be certain is to see it for myself in store. I'll call around our local stores & see any are OK with me connecting up some consoles in 720p and 1080p to their OLEDs.

Good luck on your adventure!

Hopefully someone will eventually build a really decent and fast upscaler as bobrocks95 suggested - might be a while though..

Don't hold your breath for too long - eventually could be a long time! Things like the Integral and Linker exist, that are likely ASIC based, but chroma subsample RGB/4:4:4, so there's quality loss, making it pointless for retro gaming applications.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that RGBsource - I've pretty much made up my mind to keep the plasma and wait for the 2018 refresh of OLEDs in the hope that there might be a decent-ish one for around £1500. Looking at how quickly prices are changing I think that might well be possible and perhaps more of the niggles like motion will have been improved by then too. A Sony would be nice but I think at that point they may not have enough models yet to offer one around that price point. As you say we might have to wait a long time for really decent customizable upscaling so keeping both seems to be the sensible option at the moment..

[bobrocks95]

Until HDMI 2.1, all the different HDR implementations, and OLEDs start to settle down, I'm not sure now's a great time to buy a high-end TV anyway. Any one of them could take years to sort out, but they all feel like they're right around the corner (well, OLEDs are out already, but as you said, they're getting cheaper rapidly).

[andykara2003]

Do you know when HDMI 2.1 is coming? I'm also wondering if HDR has reached it's maturity in OLEDs yet..

[bobrocks95]

2.1 is expected to be on 2018 TV models, but since manufacturers can apparently cherry-pick features as they like, who knows if we'll see variable refresh rate displays or anything useful for games like that.

Biggest problem with HDR on OLEDs is peak brightness I'd guess. I've also been kind of surprised about the color space coverage, I'd have thought OLEDs would be covering more of the newest spec.

[bigbadboaz]

there's nothing that inherently distinguishes 1080p content from others (as opposed to 240p or even 480i), and there's a decent chance that a few manufacturers will eventually realize they can employ easy, no-frills integer scaling for 720p and 1080p (at least under the game mode setting).

Yeah, this is the reason that I personally continue to fret about the upscaling issue. I believe that clean integer scaling was one of the reasons 4K was selected as the next standard, yet most manufacturers willfully ignore this and force their own algorithms which produce WORSE results. It's completely asinine, and I am not buying a new TV in order to downgrade the appearance of ANY content.

There is also, as suggested above, the idea that even integer scaling could lead to an "oversharp" appearance on the higher-res set. Doesn't sound like any of us have seen such a setup in action, but it seems plausible, something to do with having each original pixel represented by a cluster of four individually-defined pixels.

When in doubt, even though scaling in general has come leaps and bounds since the flat-panel transition, it's hard not to stick with native resolution for guaranteed good results.

Andy, back to your original question: unless heat, power consumption, or a specific desire for 4K (none of which you mention) are driving forces behind this upgrade, I really think you're doing well to stay put. If it's just the general "I want new technology!" desire, yeah, OLED is technically the best, but as before, a Panny plasma is more than good enough. The only reason I'm looking at the 1080 LG is that I have an LCD, not a plasma.

As for 2018 models, unfortunately I don't see the technology changing much in the near future. They don't have much incentive to drastically change the way they're handling motion. And bobrocks is absolutely right, this is a time of much upheaval of standards. It will be more than a model year before you can buy something that has a mature implementation of everything you might be concerned with.

[andykara2003]

Damnit I'm leaning towards having all plasmas now and buying a mint low hours 50" GT60 for the living room (cheap-ish) to replace my ancient GT10 and keeping the GT30 for gaming. The plasmas and other modern sets have extremely long half lives compared to CRTs so will serve as legacy sets for 1080p in the future. I keep legacy sets for 240p and 480p so why not 1080p/720p as well?

I'm very tempted by the 4K OLEDS for 4K HDR gaming on the PS4 and upcoming consoles but I don't fully trust that any 4K sets will do 1080p justice as a 1080p plasma would (I'm already anal about upscaling and sit quite close to my gaming TV) and, like a lot of people here, legacy consoles are and will always be important to me. Also like people are saying, waiting 2-3 years to give things time to evolve will mean that the new standards will settle down and for certain OLEDs to emerge as the definitive sets that cover all (or most) of the bases for people like us.

Oh and bigbadboaz - that's exactly what I've read; the added pixelation with integer scaling is apparently caused by each 1080p pixel being represented by a grid of 4 4K pixels producing a very sharp and defined (blocky) 1080p pixel. This is the opposite to plasmas which are very 'kind' to 1080p content, producing a clean image without being overly pixelated (even less pixellated-looking than a 1080p LCD/LED if I remember rightly).

[Xer Xian]

I tend to think (just my opinion, not an expert) that other variables, like underlying panel technology/size and viewing distance, are often conflated into the whole integer-scaling-looks-more-pixellated argument, and this ends up diminishing the scaling method for issues that are actually not inherent to it.

Yes, low-res 3D games or movies can look overly sharp/pixellated when integer scaled, but since pixels are proportionally smaller on higher-res displays, the issue is entirely on the panel technology (generally LCD) being sharper and more revealing than that for which the content was thought for (generally CRT). The only thing that changes with going higher-res that is not inherent to a specific panel tech, is that the consequently smaller pixel pitch (distance between single pixels) leaves less unused physical space in between different pixels of the panel (given a fixed panel size of course). But while that may be some of an issue for low-res material, I think the case is much weaker for decently high resolution (like 1080p).

That is not to say that people holding onto plasma displays for 1080p are wrong, but rather that the issue doesn't lie on integer scaling (imho, I'm open to being proven wrong by more knowledgeable people ^^ ).

[andykara2003]

Sure - and it's just something I read so it's not definitive information by any means, though I suspect it may be true. We won't really know until someone does a direct side by side comparison between integer scaled 1080p on a 4K panel and the same image on a 1080p panel. The fact is that I sit pretty close to my TVs (6-7 ft from a 50") and I'm anal enough that any visible scaling artefacts/degradation is going to bother me.

In the real world scenario, I would imagine that I'd find that all the OLEDs available next year within my price range (or any at all) won't have perfect integer scaling anyway.

[FinalBaton]

Some 4K sets have a 1-source-pixel-mapped-to-four, non-interpolated scaling of 1080p sources in some picture modes. That's a very nice legacy support of 1080p material right there.

Remains to be seen how they handle 720p though


Having a 1080p set for 1080p sources ensure those will be handled perfectly of course. But it does require keeping and extra TV around(if you plan on getting a 4K set and keeping the 1080p one, I mean). Not everyone will want to keep 2 TVs up and running in the same room.


Side note : I am more excited about HDR(base HDR10 but also HDR10+ and DolbyVision) than I am about 4k. I feel we've hit a nice solid picture with 1920x1080 and to me 4K enters the realm of 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. I've bought my movies on high-def Blu Ray and there's no way I'll be replacing them with 4K Blu Rays >_<
But a 4K set with very basic upscaling and no interpolation, as described above, would give me peace of mind regarding 1080p content, and would make me feel good about going with a
4K set.
So why would I get a 4K set then? Why not stay 1080p? Well, I do am a little bit curious about 4K, especially sports(hockey for me), since the players appear so small on screen. And dabbling with some 4K games could be fun. But it's also because the Sony x900e(49" for me) looks like such a solid all around TV for the price... that's why I might go 4K. OLED sets are 4K only too, so that's another incentive right there (although there's a 1080p OLED, so I could go with that I guess. But it's only sold in Europe as of now... and is a 55" panel, which is too big for my living room)

[tjstogy]

You already have an awesome TV--- I say save your money and wait a couple years (if not more).
The blacks on an OLED are going to be marginally better, 4K vs 1080P is marginally better.... IDK. I would have a hard time justifying the upgrade, and I have a Panasonic plasma too. Also--- your plasma is a plasma with all the kinks worked out-- it was a very late model for plasmas. OLED's are only going to get better, and of course, cheaper.

[FinalBaton]

You already have an awesome TV--- I say save your money and wait a couple years (if not more).
The blacks on an OLED are going to be marginally better, 4K vs 1080P is marginally better.... IDK. I would have a hard time justifying the upgrade, and I have a Panasonic plasma too. Also--- your plasma is a plasma with all the kinks worked out-- it was a very late model for plasmas. OLED's are only going to get better, and of course, cheaper.

That's some good points tjstogy, OLED is gonna continue to mature so it's logical to wait a bit. True RGB OLEDS should perform even better than WRGB ones

[Xer Xian]

We won't really know until someone does a direct side by side comparison between integer scaled 1080p on a 4K panel and the same image on a 1080p panel.

No need to wait for that - if you have an OSSC you can already check out integer scaling for progressive content by comparing plain 480p to Line2x480p through a capture card or on a multisync CRT. My capture device doesn't like 960p so I tried this out on a vga monitor (LaCie Electron) and took a couple of pictures. Beware, the source is not pristine (GC component out) and the shots are not that great or even consistent:

https://ibb.co/iOm8Ok
https://ibb.co/n1ba3k
https://ibb.co/cyC4w5
https://ibb.co/iq8G9Q

The only difference I could see was the lack of noticeable scanlines on 960p (but this is inherent to the CRT tech of course). This was something I did in 5 minutes time though, not a 100% reliable test.

[andykara2003]

The 960p versions definitely look cleaner - it doesn't also look more pixelated in person? If not, it seems the process actually improves the image.

[Xer Xian]

Well the lack of scanlines makes the 960p picture a bit more tight and cohesive - these monitors have a fairly small beam size and were generally not meant to run at a low vga resolution. That said, those thin scanlines also lessen the aliasing/jaggies a tiny bit.

So this is entirely down to the panel tech yet again and not to be mistaken for something introduced by integer scaling.

Edit: But still, multisync CRTs are the best way to test out integer scaling. When you compare two screenshots of which one is at the base resolution and the other is 2x integer scaled, you will be doing it on the same fixed pixel display most likely. That is not the same thing as comparing those pictures on two different panels that are one double the native resolution of the other. On the other hand, since multisync CRTs don't have a native resolution (at least not in the same sense as fixed pixels displays), they are better suited to be true to both images.

[BONKERS]

I'm still mad that 1080p OLEDS were so short lived. (Don't get me started on Pushing 4k, instead of pushing 1080p+HDR as the new thing.)

And why is it so hard for TV manufacturers to put in an integer scale option?
Sure it wouldn't look amazing, or as good as a native 1080p set. But it would look a heck of a lot better than the smudgy upscaling most 4k TVs use these days.

[bigbadboaz]

150% with you, brother. The HD transition was legit but 1080p is a clear point of diminishing returns. Hell, I would even be fine with no HDR if manufacturers would put the R&D money into simply refining the OLED technology itself.

Grab a 1080 set while you can - they're still available across the web.

[andykara2003]

So I went into John Lewis today with my switch and tested out the Samsung QE55Q7F QLED and the Sony A1 (55A1BU) with 1080p (Mario Kart and a couple of other games). Both TVs were pretty rough at upscaling - the Samsung had that slightly 'smeared', homogenized, almost painted look which I felt some less fussy people maybe wouldn't mind too much, but I definitely couldn't live with. Surprisingly (to me), it did a better job than the £3000 Sony A1 which looked really awful. It was the worst of both worlds - that smeared look with added pixellation.

I was again surprised to find that I preferred the QLED over the OLED for it's amazing brightness and colours. The blacks were pretty good as well. The thing is that I'd only want to have either one of these TVs if I was *only* using 4K material, so it makes them totally impractical for me for the next few years. Apart from the brightness and blacks, both are big step down from a plasma for 1080p - and then factor in the silky smooth motion of plasma and it's a no brainer for me.

The plasma blacks are good enough for me but I just wish they had the brightness of something like the Samsung. Oh well, until they sort out motion and upscaling on the 4K screens or until I'm watching 4K content exclusively, I'll just watch TV and game in lower light conditions - then the plasmas pop nicely (time to get light-proof curtains for the living room). Also I'm picking up a Panasonic GT60 in a couple of days which has higher peak whites & contrast than the older models (and the higher VT60s). It's only 120cd/m2 up from the previous 80-90cd/m2 but is a bonus bump up from my previous GT30.

Funnily enough the sales guy completely agreed. He has a GT50 and an LG OLED and he's dreading the day the plasma dies as he prefers it.

[bigbadboaz]

Disappointing but pretty much as expected (feared). I'm glad you were able to do this before making an expensive hassle of a mistake.

There will surely be a sweetspot when 4K TVs are mature and you can make a purchase you feel relatively good about. I feel 1080p peaked with your gen of plasmas and possibly the first few runs of OLED. That time will be here for 4K eventually as well, maybe within 4 years. At the rate the industry wants to push new shit on us as well, you may even be able to skip a gen and go straight to 8K. You know it's coming, and much sooner than it will be necessary.

If I do end up getting the right deal on the outgoing 1080p OLED, I'll post an update for those who were interested.

[Xyga]

@andy: have you had time to try the different picture modes on both sets? the default they use when on display in stores typically isn't games friendly, rather it's a super garish overbright very processed mode (also OLEDs in a very bright room might lose the 'wow' battle vs some of the recent extremely powerful LEDs)

That higher-end or flagship sets would be less competent for games isn't unheard of though. Damn I wish we still had something as convenient as John Lewis over here, decent home AV stores where you can try the stuff in showrooms etc have almost completely disppeared *sob*

[andykara2003]

That's annoying you can't try out stuff over there - The guy was brilliant in the shop, he spent ages with me and got everything set up as I wanted it in a separate lower light demo area. The two TVs happened to be set up next to each other and I asked him to take them out of shop mode and into game mode as you say. Then he showed me where the HDMI sockets were and just left me there for as long as I wanted! And then proceeded to tell me that for my purposes I should get the plasma and not bother with any of the TVs in the shop. What a great guy, he was more interested in telling it as it is than selling me a TV.