Crystalio II lag testing

[Xer Xian]

So this morning I've been trying to measure the added lag of this video processor through a Leo Bodnar device (720p version), but I'm getting ridiculous results.

Most of the times, the lag tester doesn't pick up anything: https://vimeo.com/234187482

On another TV, I sometimes got something even weirder: https://vimeo.com/234187912

I've already tried to change the displays' settings (backlight set to min, brightness to max) and reducing ambient light. The tester works fine on all the displays I've used it on. Anyone ever run into similar issues? Is my CII borked?

[ZellSF]

Try changing refresh rate to 59.94 and/or 60.00hz?

I'm not sure the Leo Bodnar will work to test the lag of a Crystalio II as the Crystalio II isn't refresh rate locked to source.

[Xer Xian]

Thanks Zell, that must be it.

I set the CII to just pass through the signal and I got a valid reading (it's about 10ms of delay just for passthru). No luck when the CII actually processes the signal (neither 59.94 nor 60Hz).

I wish these lag testers were more flexible, e.g. being able to output (and read) different resolutions and/or refresh rates.

[orange808]

Thanks Zell, that must be it.

I set the CII to just pass through the signal and I got a valid reading (it's about 10ms of delay just for passthru). No luck when the CII actually processes the signal (neither 59.94 nor 60Hz).

I wish these lag testers were more flexible, e.g. being able to output (and read) different resolutions and/or refresh rates.

When the video processor is performing frame rate conversion, the Leo Bodnar isn't going to see what it expects.

If you can get a CRT right next to the side your panel and get the centers of both the CRT and digital panel aligned, you should be able to take a video.

[Xer Xian]

Yeah, I suppose I could use the old stopwatch method or maybe the Fourier transform lag test that's featured in the DC 240p test suite (since the CII automatically delays audio to sync it with video processing). But I'll leave that for some other time, I've tucked it away for now.

[Zappyraccoon]

Yeah, I suppose I could use the old stopwatch method or maybe the Fourier transform lag test that's featured in the DC 240p test suite (since the CII automatically delays audio to sync it with video processing). But I'll leave that for some other time, I've tucked it away for now.

Yea that's the only gripe I have about the Crystalio II is the audio delay to sync. Games like Chrono Cross or other resolution changing titles get annoying. So I route my audio through a separate channel.

[citrus3000psi]

I just did the mic test with the DC on my 3800 (got it last week )

Setup:
DC with vga and line out -> ossc w/ audio -> cii

The cii added exactly 1 frame on all modes

[Xer Xian]

Nice, thanks for testing! One frame of lag is acceptable. Did you test deinterlacing lag too? It should be possible by setting the 240p suite to display in 480i and having the OSSC just pass-through to the CII which then outputs 480p (or higher). It should still be just fine without using the OSSC for audio embedding though.

And congrats on the find It took me more than a year to grab a CII.

[citrus3000psi]

Nice, thanks for testing! One frame of lag is acceptable. Did you test deinterlacing lag too? It should be possible by setting the 240p suite to display in 480i and having the OSSC just pass-through to the CII which then outputs 480p (or higher). It should still be just fine without using the OSSC for audio embedding though.

And congrats on the find It took me more than a year to grab a CII.

I didn't try 480i, but I will tonight. Everything is still hooked up. I'd say I got lucky with finding it. I made a WTB post in the AVS forums and its all downhill from there.

[Fudoh]

I made a WTB post in the AVS forums and its all downhill from there.

good place for the higher end gear, but you were still lucky to find one in such a short time.

And just to remind everyone: isn't the 480p upscaling just stellar ? Especially from HQ sources like a PS2 or DC. I've had processors made YEARS after the CII and exceeding the CII in price and still perform nowhere as well as the CII did (and does) on those signals.

[citrus3000psi]

good place for the higher end gear, but you were still lucky to find one in such a short time.

And just to remind everyone: isn't the 480p upscaling just stellar ? Especially from HQ sources like a PS2 or DC. I've had processors made YEARS after the CII and exceeding the CII in price and still perform nowhere as well as the CII did (and does) on those signals.

Yep I was very lucky.

The 480p is amazing, I played some royal rumble on the DC.

I thought the vga could output 480i but the the option is grayed out in the settings. So I guess I need to use either RGB or Comp to make that option work?

[Xer Xian]

I thought the vga could output 480i but the the option is grayed out in the settings. So I guess I need to use either RGB or Comp to make that option work?

I think Beharbros boxes support 15kHz through vga but sure, composite is fine for testing lag.. and you'll also give a spin to the 3D comb filter of the CII

And yeah, while my track record on video processing matters is nowhere near Fudoh's (but whose is ^^ ), I didn't need to run a formal A/B test to realize which one among the CII and VP50 performs better with 480p material - it was glaring. That said, the VP50 had its strong points too. If it turns out the CII adds more than 1.5 frames of lag for deinterlacing, I might actually regret selling the VP50..

[fafangus]

Yo guys

Do you have artefacts using ossc's line x5 with the c2 ?

Lol now that I got every upscalers, I play on crt :p

[Xer Xian]

Lol now that I got every upscalers, I play on crt :p

Yeah same here

Still I'll hold onto my CII since I know I'll switch to flat displays sooner or later, and it may come in handy then. What kind of artifacts does it show with Line5x? I didn't test the CII+OSSC combo in depth.

[citrus3000psi]

I added a switch to my vga box so I can output 15khz signals now. So I'm running 480i hdmi into the cii.

Not good news, interlacing signals have a 4 frame lag.

[Xer Xian]

Wow that's bad Better force 480p left and right for the PS2 library.

[Zappyraccoon]

I didn't know it added 4 frames of lag on interlaced content! Though I haven't undergone the next level of perfection and turned focus towards input lag. I think the picture a Crystalio II makes from interlaced sources looks much nicer than the OSSC outputs though so I just pass it through. Might just be one of those choose the lesser of two evils scenario. I avoid 480i whenever possible and try to force whatever I can into progressive anyway.

[Xer Xian]

Yeah after seeing motion adaptive deinterlacing, neither I could bear the OSSC single-field processing any longer. But proper deinterlacing comes at a cost, and it was to be expected really - even DVDO's machines add multiple frames of lag outside of the game mode settings.

So it seems to me that if you want to optimize both video processing and input lag for all possible scenarios, not even an OSSC+video processor combo is enough, since no machine (that I know of) is able to handle both 480i and 480p masterfully with low lag.

I'll have to look into all digital, hdmi-to-hdmi video processors. After all, those old multiple inputs machines are kinda overkill for gaming - it seems to me that one single hdmi input and output is all that's needed to accompany an OSSC. This might be a costly endeavor though

[Blair]

And just to remind everyone: isn't the 480p upscaling just stellar ? Especially from HQ sources like a PS2 or DC. I've had processors made YEARS after the CII and exceeding the CII in price and still perform nowhere as well as the CII did (and does) on those signals.

Yeah it's pretty bonkers to me that some relatively new scalars that cost upwards of four grand plus, still do a relatively poor job with 480p and 480i signals. I've read a few good things about the latest RadiancePro Series 4k scalars, but I don't think anybody's really studied how they perform with sub-HD content. I wish Gennum was still producing scaling technology. It's sad that we'll probably never see a real successor to the VXP technology inside the CII. (There was a video interview a few years ago with one of the company representatives showing off a prototype for a successor to the VXP chip design with some pretty fancy sounding specs, but I don't think anything ever came of it).

Wow that's bad Better force 480p left and right for the PS2 library.

I didn't know it added 4 frames of lag on interlaced content! Though I haven't undergone the next level of perfection and turned focus towards input lag. I think the picture a Crystalio II makes from interlaced sources looks much nicer than the OSSC outputs though so I just pass it through. Might just be one of those choose the lesser of two evils scenario. I avoid 480i whenever possible and try to force whatever I can into progressive anyway.

I've been thinking about this a bit myself lately, and it's kind of alarming that there is no comprehensive list of what ps2 games can be properly forced/patched into 480p (not to mention all the other possible resolutions like 240p, 720p and 1080i or 1080p) besides manpower, I think a big barrier to building a proper database has been that few people have access to decent aspect ratio control. as that's usually one of the side effects to resolution forcing on ps2 games. For instance most lists available say that Wild Arms 5 doesn't work properly when forced to a higher resolution (because of aspect ratio issues). but if you're like me and have access to a good CRT with geometry controls (or a video processor). the aspect ratio can be easily corrected, and something like Wild Arms 5 works beautifully at 480p, 1080i or even 1080p. (with the GS Mode Selector .elf)