Essay: compromise to cartoon jihadists = suicide

[Michaelm]

Sometime back I've read something about a couple of schoolgirls here in the Netherlands who had some chatfriends from a school in Iran.
I can't remember exactly why or how but they did go to Iran to visit them.
First thing they had to do when visiting this country was wear a headscarf.

What's your point?

In germany, some women take sunbaths in public parks bare breasted. If they would do the same in some other countries, even in the glorified "west", they could get arrested. If one can't accept cultural differences, then this person shouldn't leave his/her little part of the world, it's simple as that.

Yet if they come here they want us to respect their culture too, even if it goes directly into our own.

[Turrican]

Hogwash?

I'm sorry, would you please translate the term for a non-English native? Thanks.

Bullshit. Crap. Lies. Insanity. Irrationality. Nonsense. Belief in things that don't exist.

Respect Bullshit and Myth. Respect Crap for what it is. Don't take irrationality so lightly, when many crimes were committed even in the name of Reason. And about things that don't exist - that could be said of every form of ethic. It doesn't "exist" in this world a reason to not kill another human or make love with your mother, and still I'm sure your "belief" is against that.

I didn't say "believe to a religion" - I merely said respect them for what they are - thousands of years and they still have a grasp on the masses. Be it mere political control over simpleminded ones or true spiritual need, they are here. This world has to deal with them - all of them. Mutual respect is the first step.

[howmuchkeefe]

However, in this specific case, it was the "west" to start. Either that's very immature or there is people who really gains from conflict...

I think the chain of cause and consequence starts a bit earlier than you seem to think, but probably the blacksmith didn't really commit himself to the project until around the time Israel was foisted upon the Middle East.

I certainly sympathize with the feeling that many things happen that wouldn't have otherwise happened, if interested parties didn't stand to profit from it. I don't think my country would be in Iraq right now without the PNAC. I would like to think that it's opportunism, with 9/11 as the excuse, rather than a conspiracy, whereby 9/11 was staged.

However, I am sincere in my belief that respect for freedom should have precedence over respect for superstition. Ironically, I have little to truly offer in support of my position other than my own personal conception of ethics... which can easily be compared to the most outlandish superstitions.

[Turrican]

I think the chain of cause and consequence starts a bit earlier than you seem to think, but probably the blacksmith didn't really commit himself to the project until around the time Israel was foisted upon the Middle East.

Well, I didn't want to go back to middle age's crusades... I was merely talking about the strip incident in specific.

However, I am sincere in my belief that respect for freedom should have precedence over respect for superstition. Ironically, I have little to truly offer in support of my position other than my own personal conception of ethics... which can easily be compared to the most outlandish superstitions.

That's an interesting thought. I felt you sincere, don't worry.

[benj]

Yet if they come here they want us to respect their culture too, even if it goes directly into our own.

Who exactly are "they" anyway?
In the part of the city where I grew up, about 50% of the population were muslims, and they all seemed to fit in pretty good. Two of my best friends back then were muslims, and I never heard them complain about a lack of respect for their culture. I think you are generalising a bit too much here.

[The n00b]

Fuck it, I'll laugh at all the Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Buddha, and David Koresh cartoons I want. Don't like it? Too bad. Stoning people, racist cartoons about Jews, suicide bombers, Female ninja outfits, and Al Jazeera offend me but you don't see me beating the crap out of anything that looks different from me and acting like an idiot in general.

[judesalmon]

Don't arabic publications make fun of Christianity and Judaism in even worse ways?

No, they usually don't. Christians and Israelians are part of the same big family for Islam, and the Quran often does mention that often. They all believe in the same God, but the muslim got the advanced, ultimate revelation... In other words, it's like Israel is the first MacOS, Christianity OS 8.6 and Islam is OS X. (according to them, of course)

Do you know that these comic strips were originally published on an ultra right-wing newspaper? It was clearly a provocation, and sadly it worked.

To all the freedom-defenders on this thread: freedom should come with responsibility. You are lucky enough to live in a tolerant society, that's cool. Does this mean that every morning you get up your bed, enter a church and yell blasphemy at god just to demonstrate that you can? I don't think so.

Clearly all of you have the freedom to be offensive to others. To humilate them. Heck, if you hold a gun in your hands you are "free" to shoot to anyone... Then, after freedom, comes consequences of your own act. You depict Muhammad, knowing that millions in the world are pissed off by this. Cool. Don't expect that they stay quiet everytime though.

Oh, and about the Quran not stating anything precise about depicting the prophet - I don't see what's strange in that. Quran is only one of the three/four holy sources Islam has, and besides, it's the exact same with christianity, where a LOT of dogma and rules were added by the church durng centuries. Respect religions for what they are.

Turrican, that is probably the most level-headed and intelligent thing I have read from anyone in either of the threads about religion. Your other comments are similarly considered.

Good job.

[Michaelm]

Yet if they come here they want us to respect their culture too, even if it goes directly into our own.

Who exactly are "they" anyway?
In the part of the city where I grew up, about 50% of the population were muslims, and they all seemed to fit in pretty good. Two of my best friends back then were muslims, and I never heard them complain about a lack of respect for their culture. I think you are generalising a bit too much here.

Nope, I'm not generalising. I've heard enough of them complain on Dutch television about how their rights are not respected here.
Sure there are some that are ok but there are simply too much that are not ok.

And because you don't seem to understand so well I'll state it again:
If we go to a muslim country they demand us to respect their culture and act like it.
But if they come over here they still want that but they have a hard time respecting our culture.

Now to me it seems like it should all be a give and take case.
You know, give some, take some.
But they seem to only know thet latter part, take some.
Then if you say something about that fact they start whining about how they are not respected and that the whole western world hates muslims.

And it doesnt stay with this, oh no.
If some terrorist attack happens they would also say that we had it comming because we would have shown we didn't respect them.
So they use their wining as an excuse to say they understand the terrorist attacks.

It's like you call me jerk and upon that I call you an arsehole and you start whining that I don't respect you and demand I take back my words.

[Michaelm]

Respect religions for what they are.

Oh, but I do, I respect them for being fearytales written to control people.

[benj]

So you've seen it on TV? Then of course, I'll take back everything I've written earlier. What could I, someone who grew up with muslims, worked with/for them and being friends with them, possibly know about the subject compared to someone who has heard about it on TV?
BTW, I've seen on the television that most drugs come to europe through dutch harbors, so I guessyou people must are all drug dealers, right?

[Turrican]

Respect religions for what they are.

Oh, but I do, I respect them for being fearytales written to control people.

You play videogames, so clearly you can't be too upset towards fairytales, right?

As that old friend of mine used to say: "show a little more
respect for faerie tales, Riskbreaker".

If the issue is power control, you should aim at Churches, not religions.

[Michaelm]

So you've seen it on TV? Then of course, I'll take back everything I've written earlier. What could I, someone who grew up with muslims, worked with/for them and being friends with them, possibly know about the subject compared to someone who has heard about it on TV?
BTW, I've seen on the television that most drugs come to europe through dutch harbors, so I guessyou people must are all drug dealers, right?

Is it really so hard to understand that I've seen actual muslims speak out on television instead of somebody talking about it ?!?

I've allready said that there are muslims who are ok. I know some too.
Funny thing is I've never heard them talk shit like those whining muslims on tv. Hell, I can't even remember ever having talked to them about religion as niether of us had the need to bring it up. We respected eachother, simple as that. I don't need no book to know that if I treat people like jerks they will treat me like one too. That's not higher knowledge.

And the remark about the drugs. The Netherlands happen to have the best policy in the world on soft drugs. If you check out jails in other countries you'll be surprised how many of the people are in jail there because of minor soft drug charges.

If the issue is power control, you should aim at Churches, not religions.

Please explain how that's different ?!?

[Turrican]

If the issue is power control, you should aim at Churches, not religions.

Please explain how that's different ?!?

Sure. You don't need a church to believe in a religion. If you need spirituality and want a contact with a God, you can always read the sacred texts by yourself and find your own way to follow His rule.

"Church" means instead an organization, with an hierarchy and such. A physical thing, made by actual people: cardinals, priests and such. In other words, the two things are quite different: the same difference between, say, liberal ideology and a liberal party; the idea of communism and a totalitarian regime; Christ and the several Popes through the centuries.

Let's say you are american and you like freedom. You don't have to actually be affiliated to a party, be it Dem or Rep. You don't have to do political activity to be american. That's very roughly the same difference.

Hmm... I don't think I explained it that well, I'm sure many here can explain better than me ^_^;

Edit: actually, there's a simpler example yet: Christianity as a whole is a religion, but it's divided into several Churches. There are for instance Catholics and Greek Orthodox. The religion is the same, but during centuries these Churches developed their own rituals and somewhat different interpretations of the same holy texts.

[BulletMagnet]

Please explain how that's different ?!?

Just take a look at how many times over the years certain denominations have pretty much completely abandoned their own doctrines and beliefs when an opportunity to empower or enrich themselves has come up...it's already been mentioned how some extremist Muslims are pushing hatred and violence against Christianity and Judaism (and, in some cases, vice-versa) despite the fact that they all claim to worship the same God and believe many of the same basic things, and all claim to want peace.

In this case, at least, along with many others, the beliefs themselves aren't the problem: rather, it's the fact that people only choose to follow those beliefs when it's to their own convenience.

[Michaelm]

If the issue is power control, you should aim at Churches, not religions.

Please explain how that's different ?!?

Sure. You don't need a church to believe in a religion. If you need spirituality and want a contact with a God, you can always read the sacred texts by yourself and find your own way to follow His rule.

"Church" means instead an organization, with an hierarchy and such. A physical thing, made by actual people: cardinals, priests and such. In other words, the two things are quite different: the same difference between, say, liberal ideology and a liberal party; the idea of communism and a totalitarian regime; Christ and the several Popes through the centuries.

Let's say you are american and you like freedom. You don't have to actually be affiliated to a party, be it Dem or Rep. You don't have to do political activity to be american. That's very roughly the same difference.

Hmm... I don't think I explained it that well, I'm sure many here can explain better than me ^_^;

Edit: actually, there's a simpler example yet: Christianity as a whole is a religion, but it's divided into several Churches. There are for instance Catholics and Greek Orthodox. The religion is the same, but during centuries these Churches developed their own rituals and somewhat different interpretations of the same holy texts.

Well, it's true that if you want to believe in a religion you don't necesarily need a church. Also it's true about all the dividing that has been going on over the years. It will probably continue too.

The dividing doesn't stop it being a religion though and I've yet to come across a church that doesn't belong to a religion.
Though there must be religious people in history who meant good for people I think most religions just come out bad of it.

[Specineff]

Turrican, you totally Pwn.

[Turrican]

*chuckles* thanks Spec, Jude!

Seems a good moment to suggest everyone to do an image search with Google: just enter the word "COEXIST".

[judesalmon]

Religion comes from God.

Churches come from humans.

[Michaelm]

Religion comes from God.

Churches come from humans.

As an unbeliever you certainly make believer statements.
Where is the proof that god exists ?!?

[Nuke]

God created humans, who then created god.

Abel offered his flock to the lord, and was blessed.
Cain slew Abel.
God offered his son to man, and was praised.
Who slew god?

There was only one true christian, and he died on a cross.

[Blade]

I swear, too many Christ-haters on this forum. You'd think he was a super secret final boss like Hibachi or something.

[Nuke]

Nah, I think he was a great MAN with a neat, altough flawed idiea.

[judesalmon]

Religion comes from God.

Churches come from humans.

As an unbeliever you certainly make believer statements.
Where is the proof that god exists ?!?

That's the point - those that have 'faith' don't need proof.

[sffan]

You can believe in anything if all you need is faith.

For example, there is no evidence that blowing yourself up with a bomb will lead you to 57 virgins who want to have sex with you, but you can believe it if you have faith. Evidence shmevidence.

So, just pick any rediculous myth made up by an ignorant person two thousand years ago, apply faith, and voila! You have a new belief. It'll work with anything, try it!

[Stormwatch]

Also: pick any ridiculous myth made up by a somewhat crazy pulp sci-fi writer, just a few decades years ago, apply faith, and voila! You have a new belief.

[Turrican]

Also: pick any ridiculous myth made up by a somewhat crazy pulp sci-fi writer, just a few decades years ago, apply faith, and voila! You have a new belief.

Well, essentially it works just like that. However, the quality of the writing, the subjects and themes evocated, and great characters and narration DO make the difference in the lasting fortune of each myth.

That's why it's reasonable to foresee that current religions will probably last more than George Lucas and Tolkien's myths.

[Stormwatch]

Uh... I was talking about scientology.

[Turrican]

Uh... I was talking about scientology.

Well, if there's a justice, that one will last even less

[Michaelm]

Religion comes from God.

Churches come from humans.

As an unbeliever you certainly make believer statements.
Where is the proof that god exists ?!?

That's the point - those that have 'faith' don't need proof.

Aha, so if I have complete faith that I will win the lottery.
I won't need a ticket but can just pick up the price.
Cause like you said, I had faith, why would I need proof ?

[Stormwatch]

As I've already said...

"The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind." - Ayn Rand