When to prefer NTSC over PAL systems?

[gordon-creAtive]

Living in PAL land all my current retro consoles are NTSC to circumvent the annoying PAL conversions (black bars on top and bottom and wrong game speed). However I plan on getting more up to date consoles and I'm unsure at which point the bad conversions did stop. I do have the impression it happened with the introduction of HDMI ports.

Based on that I think the following consoles should be preferred in their NTSC version:

* All Segas
* Nintendo before Wii U
* Playstation 1 & 2
* Xbox Original

Am I on the right track?

[Thomago]

With PS1 and PS2, NTSC is definitely preferable.
The PAL Wii is totally fine, no reason to buy an NTSC one afaik. Every game will run in NTSC.
The PAL Gamecube is a mixed proposition: It can easily play NTSC games using a Freeloader disc / Swiss and has RGB output, which is the best you can get if you don't want the shell out the money for a Component cable or an HDMI mod, but well... you may not like using a Freeloader disc / Swiss.
Regarding the Segas and the Xbox: I don't know.

[gordon-creAtive]

With the Wii I assume you mean a softmodded PAL Wii that runs NTSC games?

[Harrumph]

The PAL Gamecube is a mixed proposition: It can easily play NTSC games using a Freeloader disc / Swiss and has RGB output, which is the best you can get if you don't want the shell out the money for a Component cable or an HDMI mod, but well... you may not like using a Freeloader disc / Swiss.

I think what gives PAL Gamecube the edge is that with GameBoy Player, you'll likely want to get Swiss capability anyway to use GBI, and then you might as well use a PAL cube.

[nem]

What's wrong with a PAL Dreamcast or a PAL OG XBOX?

[Xer Xian]

Acceptable PAL conversions (ie with PAL60 support) largely started with 6th gen consoles (DC/PS2 etc).. and stopped being relevant with the following gen for its digital output (since the HD standards are the same across the globe). However, many games in that gen (most of the DC library, a big chunk of the GC and Xbox ones) supported higher res as well (generally vga and 480p), which made PAL60 a second-choice mode anyway (well, not that you had a choice with PAL GC and Xbox).

What's wrong with a PAL Dreamcast or a PAL OG XBOX?

PAL Dreamcast - some games had VGA output removed. Don't have a list, but very few though - not a big deal
PAL Xbox - can't output anything other than 480i stock. Can be restored by soft-modding - again not a big deal

[gordon-creAtive]

As for the Dreamcast it seems like games are running at the wrong speed. But I'm unsure that's why I opened the thread.
After some additional research it seems like the PAL Xbox can be softmodded to enable 480p component output even for PAL games. I assume the games also run at the correct speed since there seems to be no difference between PAL and NTSC gamediscs.

[FinalBaton]

I'm guessing 5th and 4th and 3rd gen you should go full NTSC.

since developpers didn't put much tought and effort in PAL optimization for the PAL versions of games (except Nintendo 1st party titles)

[Xer Xian]

As for the Dreamcast it seems like games are running at the wrong speed.

Is that something you observed or did you read it somewhere? I don't think that's the case - all 6th gen PAL consoles were made to support 60Hz refresh rates so there's no timing issues like those you could have, for example, with older PAL consoles modded to run discs from all regions without addressing the different oscillator frequency.

[gordon-creAtive]

Is that something you observed or did you read it somewhere? I

Well, I read it somewhere - and I didn't really trust it.

[Xer Xian]

Ah, ok then. Anyway, to expand on what I wrote above.. the fact that 6th gen consoles allowed for proper PAL60 conversions doesn't mean all games were properly converted. In fact, many games still got away with slowed down gameplay and squished graphics - even AAA games like, say, DMC or FF X

Luckily you can soft-mod the (fat) PS2 which will enable it to load proper NTSC games. So to answer your original question, if you want to keep your consoles stock but are ok with soft-modding, you can stop to worry for shitty PAL conversions from the DC onwards.

[gordon-creAtive]

Well thank you for that comprehensive answer. I'm very glad about the fact that the Xbox can be softmodded to proper video out since importing it is quite expensive because of is size and weight. Also it has an internal PSU which makes things even more complicated.

[Lawfer]

Also it has an internal PSU which makes things even more complicated.

Using a step down converter is not complicated.

[Ikaruga11]

NTSC for everything

[AndehX]

I'd say NTSC for everything except the Gamecube, since you lose RGB with the NTSC version.

[Lawfer]

(since the HD standards are the same across the globe).

Not entirely true:

While HD has unified the frame sizes, we are still stuck with “PAL” HD using 25 fps while “NTSC” HD uses 29.97 fps. Even though progressive-scan video uses only frames and not fields, we can still feel the effects of PAL vs. NTSC when looking at 720p video – 720p30 runs at 29.97 fps and is used in countries with NTSC, while PAL users shooting 720p will have 720p25 at 25fps!

There is also 720p PAL (50) and 720p NTSC (60).

East-Asian PS4 games are still listed as "NTSC" on the back of the cover.

[Harrumph]

There is also 720p PAL (50) and 720p NTSC (60).

Yes, all those video formats exists, but it doesn't matter because all the HDMI-era PAL consoles can output 720 or 1080p @ 60Hz, afaik. So if a game can run at 60fps (as we all know, many don't), it will.

[Xer Xian]

I wasn't talking about broadcast standards. And even in this case, referring to 720p60/720p50 as NTSC/PAL is erroneous - there's no difference in resolution or color encoding, just FPS.

[Lawfer]

I wasn't talking about broadcast standards. And even in this case, referring to 720p60/720p50 as NTSC/PAL is erroneous - there's no difference in resolution or color encoding, just FPS.

And refresh rate:

Using PAL as a foundation for Digital TV or HDTV, if the frames are transmitted as an interlaced image (1080i), each frame is composed of two fields, with each field displayed every 50th of a second, and a complete frame displayed every 25th of a second, using a PAL-based 25 frame-per-second frame rate. If the frame is transmitted in the progressive scan format (720p or 1080p) it is displayed twice every 25th of a second. In both cases, a unique high definition frame is displayed every 25th of a second on TVs in former PAL-based countries.

Even nowadays 120Hz is rated as "100Hz" in PAL land, just like 240Hz is rated as "200Hz". Because PAL by it's very nature is 50Hz, while NTSC is 60Hz, since 50 x 2 = 100 while 60 x 2 = 120.

Thankfully if you buy a "100Hz" TV you are not getting screwed over because it can still do 120Hz content (kinda like how PAL TVs could be compatible with both NTSC and PAL while it was rare to find an NTSC TV that could do PAL as well).

Q: I live in Europe and want to play console games that, even though they are PAL games, say "60 Hz only" on the cover. If I understand this article correctly, I should get a TV with a real refresh rate of 100 Hz, since if I get one with a real refresh rate of 50 Hz, it would be too low for the 60 Hz content. Is this correct, or would a 50 Hz TV actually work with 60 Hz games? What about motion blur and input lag? Would I get worse picture quality and lag when playing games on a 100 Hz TV as compared to a 50 Hz TV?

A: No, even 50Hz TVs can display 60Hz. In Europe, all Full HD TVs must support at least 1080p @ 60Hz and 1080p @ 50Hz. The inverse is not true. In North America, not all 60Hz TVs can display 50Hz.

[Ikaruga11]

I'd say NTSC for everything except the Gamecube, since you lose RGB with the NTSC version.

The RGB on the GameCube and Wii are Sync-on-Composite only, and derived from the YCbCr signal. Component is better.

I get what you're saying though, since NTSC GameCubes have S-Video and PAL GameCubes have RGB.

[Thomago]

With the Wii I assume you mean a softmodded PAL Wii that runs NTSC games?

Nope, I mean an unmodded Wii. Or are there any worthwhile Wii games that didn't get a PAL release?
If not: Wether a PAL Wii puts out NTSC or PAL doesn't primarily depend on the game, but on the setting of the console. Set the console to NTSC output and that's it.

EDIT: That's only true for Wii games. If you intend to use the Wii for Gamecube games, you should get an NTSC one.

[Lawfer]

With the Wii I assume you mean a softmodded PAL Wii that runs NTSC games?

Nope, I mean an unmodded Wii. Or are there any worthwhile Wii games that didn't get a PAL release?

Some, meanwhile there were also some Wii games that released in Japan and Europe but not in the US.

This is why I have both a US Wii and Euro Wii.

[Thomago]

With the Wii I assume you mean a softmodded PAL Wii that runs NTSC games?

Nope, I mean an unmodded Wii. Or are there any worthwhile Wii games that didn't get a PAL release?

Some, meanwhile there were also some Wii games that released in Japan and Europe but not in the US.

This is why I have both a US Wii and Euro Wii.

Because of things like that I even own PAL and NTSC PS1s/PS2s. Sure, generally, one is better off with NTSC PlayStations, but every now and then there's a game that was only released in PAL territories or whose PAL version is straight off preferable. Also, owning both NTSC and PAL systems gives you flexibility when it comes to buying games, which is *very* welcome in times of soaring retro game prices.

[Lawfer]

Because of things like that I even own PAL and NTSC PS1s/PS2s. Sure, generally, one is better off with NTSC PlayStations, but every now and then there's a game that was only released in PAL territories or whose PAL version is straight off preferable. Also, owning both NTSC and PAL systems gives you flexibility when it comes to buying games, which is *very* welcome in times of soaring retro game prices.

For PS1 I can't remember too many worthwhile games only releasing in Europe and Japan but not in the US (there was Overblood 2 and a few other like Hellnight/Dark Messiah), on the other hand for PS2 there were quite a bit of them!

The weird thing about Overblood 2 is that it had two different publishers in Europe, so if you'd buy the German version you'be stuck with german dubs + german subs and nothing else, while if you'd buy the UK version you'd get multi-language (English, Italian and German).

[Harrumph]

I wasn't talking about broadcast standards. And even in this case, referring to 720p60/720p50 as NTSC/PAL is erroneous - there's no difference in resolution or color encoding, just FPS.

And refresh rate:

Using PAL as a foundation for Digital TV or HDTV, if the frames are transmitted as an interlaced image (1080i), each frame is composed of two fields, with each field displayed every 50th of a second, and a complete frame displayed every 25th of a second, using a PAL-based 25 frame-per-second frame rate. If the frame is transmitted in the progressive scan format (720p or 1080p) it is displayed twice every 25th of a second. In both cases, a unique high definition frame is displayed every 25th of a second on TVs in former PAL-based countries.

Even nowadays 120Hz is rated as "100Hz" in PAL land, just like 240Hz is rated as "200Hz". Because PAL by it's very nature is 50Hz, while NTSC is 60Hz, since 50 x 2 = 100 while 60 x 2 = 120.

Once again, this isn't really relevant to the question of the OP. It's the output capabilities of the PAL-region console that matter, and all consoles since HDMI came can output 60Hz.

[Xer Xian]

@Lawfer: Well, fps or refresh rate, whatever you want to call it. But really, PAL and NTSC are dead and buried today. The only thing that's left of them is (as you specified) the different fps specification of today's digital broadcast standards, 50Hz for DVB (Europe) and 60Hz for ATSC (USA). But it's just a vestige of the analog standard, there's no more fundamental reason than that. By the way, about your quote:

Using PAL as a foundation for Digital TV or HDTV, if the frames are transmitted as an interlaced image (1080i), each frame is composed of two fields, with each field displayed every 50th of a second, and a complete frame displayed every 25th of a second, using a PAL-based 25 frame-per-second frame rate *. If the frame is transmitted in the progressive scan format (720p or 1080p) it is displayed twice every 25th of a second **. In both cases, a unique high definition frame is displayed every 25th of a second on TVs in former PAL-based countries.

* This is only true if your display is an HD-capable CRT (with a digital to analog decoder) - digital displays generally can't render interlaced content as is and have to deinterlace it.
** That's not true in general. There are 50 full frames in a 50fps progressive scan source, no one has to be displayed twice (on a 50Hz screen). That would only be the case for 24p movies (2:2 pulldown).

The RGB on the GameCube and Wii are Sync-on-Composite only, and derived from the YCbCr signal. Component is better.

Component is better because it supports 480p, not as opposed to sync on composite RGB. And no, not even when taking account of the transcoding step from YCbCr - I compared both setups and posted a gif of that sometime ago which showed no significant difference (for GBA games through GBP+GBI).

[Guspaz]

Sync on composite is fine with a well shielded cable. It's really just the 480i vs 480p thing that matters. HD Retrovision's cables also work with the PAL cube to give you component 240p/480i output, and are the equivalent of very high-end RGB cables in terms of shielding/construction.

[neorichieb1971]

Apart from PS3 onwards, always had NTSC even though I am in PAL land.

Some upscalers like the XRGB are apparently not liking non 60hz input, although I have never tried it.

The original code on the disc/cart is always native ntsc format, so your getting what the programmers designed, not some hogwash conversion that fits into the PAL TV screen with whatever sacrifices were required at the time.

With the PS1 and PS2, you can't even play PAL games in 60hz since the system plays the disc at the speed the disc wants to be played. The positive here is that you can get the PAL console and buy the NTSC discs, if you mod the system.

[Xer Xian]

The original code on the disc/cart is always native ntsc format, so your getting what the programmers designed, not some hogwash conversion that fits into the PAL TV screen with whatever sacrifices were required at the time.

Even games developed by european software houses would tend to have slower PAL versions, yeah. But it wasn't written in stone - even before PAL60 (which is 480i@60Hz with PAL color encoding) became a thing (ie when european TVs started supporting 60Hz and/or NTSC, and console manufacturers took note), proper PAL versions could be made, and indeed were made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_QX6UGiGtE

It was just a matter of adjusting game speed according to slower PAL frame rate - shame that most developers were too lazy for that. And yeah, Nintendo as well (or badly). I do wonder if there ever was some natively PAL game that got an inferior, or even butchered NTSC conversion

[strygo]

Apart from wanting accessing to Europe-only games, are there any reasons why an American might bother to get a PAL console? My (admittedly unthorough) investigations have led me to conclude that although I might gain access to RGB (in the case of the Xbox or Wii), I would run into trouble with 480p and thus YPbPr via component is a better option. Am I wrong at all?