Input Lag Free HDTV?

[evil_ash_xero]

I hope my Samsung doesn't croak too soon. Doesn't seem like there's been a lot of low lag LCD options, in the last few years.

[Xyga]

There's plenty at the moment.

[Guspaz]

LG OLED TVs: low latency for a TV (21ms) and supports every OSSC scaling mode, even with the SNES. For small screens (below 55") there are a lot of gaming monitors that go even lower.

[Xer Xian]

IF you think about it, crts have a kind of lag too. What's going to be drawn in the next frame is usually decided in the vblank, the last scanlines of a frame are drawn more than 10ms afterwards.</rant>

I don't think that qualifies as lag. Since the VBlank Interval happens at a fixed frequency, it was exploited by developers to run code and update the picture while avoiding screen tearing (more on that here and especially here). And even if we don't take account of that, VBI only takes 1.3-1.4ms with NTSC timings, which to me looks better than waiting for a frame buffer to fill. I don't know how fast that can be pushed with modern double/triple buffering and VSync *, but still, if we're talking retro-games CRTs can't be beaten, for the obvious reason that games were meant to run on that display tech (and the VBI exploiting showcases that beautifully). </counter-rant> ^_^

* Edit: but of course that happens on the graphic card end anyway.

[paulb_nl]

And a 165Hz LCD panel can achieve lower average latency per frame than a 60Hz CRT as a result.

Yes, but only if the source outputs at a refresh rate > 60 Hz.

Maybe not.

yxkalle is correct. If the source outputs at 60Hz then it outputs the last lines after 16ms. So the minimum latency for a complete frame at 60Hz will always be 16ms.

IF you think about it, crts have a kind of lag too. What's going to be drawn in the next frame is usually decided in the vblank, the last scanlines of a frame are drawn more than 10ms afterwards.</rant>

I don't think that qualifies as lag.

Still, All the Leo bodnar lag numbers are including that kind of lag anyway. A 16ms result on the middle bar with a Leo bodnar tester means ~8ms more lag than a CRT.

[Xer Xian]

I don't think that qualifies as lag.

Still, All the Leo bodnar lag numbers are including that kind of lag anyway. A 16ms result on the middle bar with a Leo bodnar tester means ~8ms more lag than a CRT.

I was talking about the "lag" due to the vertical blanking pulses. Still, an 8ms reading on the middle bar of the Leo Bodnar tester is not lag either (with a 60Hz refresh), at least in the analog domain. The middle and lower bar are there to show if the display updates the picture globally (Plasmas, some LCDs) or by line-by-line drawing (CRTs, most LCDs and OLEDs). If I'm not mistaken, frames used to be sent line-by-line (probably due to bandwidth and computational limits), so uneven picture drawing is (/was) not lag.

Edit: Sorry, I misread your post, you were talking about a 16ms reading on the middle bar. Yes, at a 60Hz refresh that would be an 8ms lag of course.

[mikejmoffitt]

For what it's worth, frames are more or less still sent line-by-line, and scanned in the same way a CRT is.

[Unseen]

yxkalle is correct. If the source outputs at 60Hz then it outputs the last lines after 16ms. So the minimum latency for a complete frame at 60Hz will always be 16ms.

That assumes that the entire frame is calculated before it starts to display. This isn't always true, see the Atari 2600 for a counterexample - it has no framebuffer, the CPU constantly updates the video chip registers to change the content of the next (or in some cases even current) scan line.

[Ji-L87]

Has this been posted here yet?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... r-gaming_1

[evil_ash_xero]

LG OLED TVs: low latency for a TV (21ms) and supports every OSSC scaling mode, even with the SNES. For small screens (below 55") there are a lot of gaming monitors that go even lower.

Oh OK. What would be one of the larger, but with uber low lag? I would like to go above 32 inch.

[paulb_nl]

That assumes that the entire frame is calculated before it starts to display. This isn't always true, see the Atari 2600 for a counterexample - it has no framebuffer, the CPU constantly updates the video chip registers to change the content of the next (or in some cases even current) scan line.

True, when talking about console to video output latency consoles can change content mid-scanline. I meant that the last line of the frame at 60Hz will always be output at minimum 16ms even if a faster display draws the whole frame in 6ms.

[Xyga]

LG OLED TVs: low latency for a TV (21ms) and supports every OSSC scaling mode, even with the SNES. For small screens (below 55") there are a lot of gaming monitors that go even lower.

Oh OK. What would be one of the larger, but with uber low lag? I would like to go above 32 inch.

Seriously, can't you check the reviews on Rtings by yourself? there are Vizio and TCL models of 2016 and 2017, even some LG, that are sub-1 frame. The LG OLED are just the overall best but most expensive, of course.

[andykara2003]

Has this been posted here yet?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... r-gaming_1

I've wondered what the most knowledgeable tech guys here would think of these Eurogamer articles on TVs. I always ignore the IGN articles about this as I don't think they really have a clue but the Digital foundry lot from Eurogamer seem to know their stuff generally. Are they pretty on point on what they're saying?

[evil_ash_xero]

LG OLED TVs: low latency for a TV (21ms) and supports every OSSC scaling mode, even with the SNES. For small screens (below 55") there are a lot of gaming monitors that go even lower.

Oh OK. What would be one of the larger, but with uber low lag? I would like to go above 32 inch.

Seriously, can't you check the reviews on Rtings by yourself? there are Vizio and TCL models of 2016 and 2017, even some LG, that are sub-1 frame. The LG OLED are just the overall best but most expensive, of course.

I didn't even know of this site. I'll look into it now. I may ask for advice again, as I have a bad habit of screwing shit up all the time.

UPDATE: Does this strike you as a good gaming TV? Any warnings?

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/uj6300

[Xyga]

My bad I assumed pretty much everyone knew of it by now but heh. Their reviews aren't perfect but show tons of useful info.

On their website you can sort the TVs by test results, and that includes lag.

EDIT: wait a minute I just went back in the thread ans several links to Rtings have been posted for you... *cough*

[evil_ash_xero]

My bad I assumed pretty much everyone knew of it by now but heh. Their reviews aren't perfect but show tons of useful info.

On their website you can sort the TVs by test results, and that includes lag.

EDIT: wait a minute I just went back in the thread ans several links to Rtings have been posted for you... *cough*

Sorry man. I'm not paying attention as much as I should, obviously.
I do appreciate the help.

So, am I understanding that the LG UJ7700 has less than 1 frame in Game Mode? Is there anything bad I should know about this TV?
Also, can I get different stands for these newer TVs? I freaking hate those little things they sit on now. Blech...

[paulb_nl]

So, am I understanding that the LG UJ7700 has less than 1 frame in Game Mode? Is there anything bad I should know about this TV?

It has a subpixel structure thats not aligned so you can see jagged edges on some content. Rtings has included a 4:4:4 test image where you can see the difference between the LG and the Sony X750D.

[evil_ash_xero]

So, am I understanding that the LG UJ7700 has less than 1 frame in Game Mode? Is there anything bad I should know about this TV?

It has a subpixel structure thats not aligned so you can see jagged edges on some content. Rtings has included a 4:4:4 test image where you can see the difference between the LG and the Sony X750D.

It also says here that is has 30ms input lag, in Game Mode. However on Rtings it says it has 12.4 ms. Am I missing something? https://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lg ... j7700.html

[evil_ash_xero]

How about the LG C7?

How many ms is a frame again? Like 15?

[Fudoh]

How many ms is a frame again? Like 15?

16.67ms for a 60Hz signal. If you're running content with 30fps you could argue that a frame is 33.33ms instead.

[evil_ash_xero]

How many ms is a frame again? Like 15?

16.67ms for a 60Hz signal. If you're running content with 30fps you could argue that a frame is 33.33ms instead.

Oh OK. What would you recommend, Fudoh? Input is most important, but picture is also important.
That LG UJ7700 seemed like the one I was gonna get, but then I read it has 30ms in Game Mode. I don't know which site is accurate.
The TLC P607 seems OK, but I'm not sure what other sites have it rated for input lag. NeoGaf seem to like it http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1397451

I would like something that is sub one frame, but is decent sized.

And honestly, for the size of my room, I don't particularly want anything above 42 inches. Seems like they're all over 55 tho'.

[Fudoh]

I don't know which site is accurate.

RTings is.

I don't like the upscaling on Samsung's sets and I had no chance to see a TLC display.

Seems like they're all over 55 tho'.

55" is the new 42"

[Lawfer]

Input is most important, but picture is also important.

It's usually 1 or the other if you want "the best", you won't get "lowest input lag ever with best picture quality ever".

This is why if you care about picture quality you shouldn't even enable "Game Mode" in the first place.

And honestly, for the size of my room, I don't particularly want anything above 42 inches. Seems like they're all over 55 tho'.

This is the standard size nowadays, now the standard is 55" through 65", 10 years ago the standard used to be 46" through 55". So in 10 years, there's been a 10" increase in the standard size.

[Blair]

This is why if you care about picture quality you shouldn't even enable "Game Mode" in the first place.

I'm not so sure about that, video game graphics don't usually benefit from any of the gimmicks or processing features that a lot of TVs employ. I actually think a lot of video and Movie content can also suffer quite a bit with a lot of those unnecessary and sometimes broken "enhancement" features.

[evil_ash_xero]

Unfortunate about the lack of options in size.

I'll have to see if I can make room for something bigger.

[Xyga]

That LG UJ7700 seemed like the one I was gonna get, but then I read it has 30ms in Game Mode. I don't know which site is accurate.

1. Rtings use the Leo Bodnar lag tester which is widely considered pretty accurate for most displays, that tester allows to measure lag by the top of the screen (beginning of the frame draw), middle, and bottom (end of the frame draw), what Rtings show you is the middle measurement, assuming (I guess) that most people focus on the middle while playing.

2. that other '30ms' measurement; it seems you've been to lcdtvbuyingguide, their testing methods and results aren't clearly explained nor shown imho, mostly just stated without proof, Rtings are more popular for good reasons.

3. after reading a few reviews it's easy to see that the UJ7700 despite having very low lag is an overall bad set. In your place I'd check the 2016 Vizio and indeed the 2017 TCL, those are popular 'budget gaming set' series at the moment. not stellar, but decent.
videogamesperfection and neogaf also have OSSC users, surely there'll be bits of advice to take from them about which set they use, if that device matters to you for your choice (it should!)

[evil_ash_xero]

Are there more expensive sets, with low lag? It seems like all the low lag TVs are "budget".

[Lawfer]

Are there more expensive sets, with low lag? It seems like all the low lag TVs are "budget".

Is this for PC gaming or console gaming in the first place?

[evil_ash_xero]

Are there more expensive sets, with low lag? It seems like all the low lag TVs are "budget".

Is this for PC gaming or console gaming in the first place?

Console and PC, actually.

[Lawfer]

Are there more expensive sets, with low lag? It seems like all the low lag TVs are "budget".

Is this for PC gaming or console gaming in the first place?

Console and PC, actually.

So in my opinion for PC gaming it's best to wait and hold off buying a new TV for now until they release new TV sets with HDMI 2.1 inputs in 2018, otherwise you'll be stuck with HDMI 2.0 is you buy a 4K TV now and you'll be stuck with HDMI 1.4 if you buy a 1080p TV.