Any interpolation devices?

[evil_ash_xero]

Is there any kind of interpolation devices? Like that scanline generator?
No lag, or low lag would be great.
Any ideas?

[nissling]

You mean like motion interpolation? Why on earth would you want that?

[FinalBaton]

evil_ash_xero, your TV supports the consoles' native output, which is 60Hz. so you need to take advantage of that. Whenever a screen is able to display a signal in it's native form, that's always the way to go.

Interpolation to 120Hz woulod just result in disgusting soap-opera effect

[evil_ash_xero]

I like to have control of a blurring effect.

[Blair]

as far as I'm aware, no separate hardware-based processor exists for motion interpolation, the closest thing is SmoothVideo Project. but that's only for converting and interpolating prerecorded video files. (you'd have to ask the project maintainers if there is a way you could Jerry rig up a capture solution to do real-time conversion)

so your only real option is whatever type of interpolation your TV comes with. The algorithms used by most manufacturers are designed for video content not gaming, and because of that the input lag is usually pretty bad.

are you mostly interested in interpolation to defeat LCD motion blur?

[evil_ash_xero]

I don't know if you guys are on the same page as I am.

I'm looking for a device that will allow me to add some blur to game systems, hooked up to LCDs. Just some, to make it look a bit more CRT like. Especially for the polygonal systems.

I guess the answer is "no".

[Blair]

ah, now I understand what you're saying. Theoretically, depending on how the sharpening settings work on your TV you might be able to do it if you have negative sharpness and edge enhancement abilities. ( have you found out what the neutral sharpness setting of your display is ?)

outside of that video processors like the HD 3000, DVDO VP50pro and Edge Green can also do something similar with negative edge enhancement and detail enhancement settings. (if you see my posts in in the OSSC thread you can get an idea of how that could look, or if you're interested I could post some examples here)

just to be clear your just talking about image detail,(subtle blurring/sharpening). not any kind of "motion" processing, correct?

[evil_ash_xero]

ah, now I understand what you're saying. Theoretically, depending on how the sharpening settings work on your TV you might be able to do it if you have negative sharpness and edge enhancement abilities. ( have you found out what the neutral sharpness setting of your display is ?)

outside of that video processors like the HD 3000, DVDO VP50pro and Edge Green can also do something similar with negative edge enhancement and detail enhancement settings. (if you see my posts in in the OSSC thread you can get an idea of how that could look, or if you're interested I could post some examples here)

just to be clear your just talking about image detail,(subtle blurring/sharpening). not any kind of "motion" processing, correct?

Yes, just subtle blurring. And would these add input lag?
Any examples would be great.

[Blair]

sure here's some examples that I posted in the other threads, (latency for any of my solutions is well under a frame so 8 - 6ms or less) any particular games you had in mind that especially needed softening?

Spoiler

@Guspaz and @marqs

The sync problems I had with the WII seem to have resolved, I've replaced my Wii with another model (this time running Wii firmware 4.3, instead of 3.2) not sure what the change was that solved the issue but seems to be working now with my setup.

here's a shot of the Wii outputting in component video running RA-wii (Sega core), 240p into the OSSC (line double+scanlines) then into the vp50pro with some negative edge enhancement and detail enhancement (also gamma adjustment), gives it a really Bloomy kind of arcade feel (or at least that's how my nostalgic memories of arcade machines look).


Wii isolated capture (for comparison)




OSSC Scanlines and vp50pro EE-/DE+,

Spoiler

andykara2003, what is the model/size of the 16:9 CRT you're thinking about getting rid of? is it capable of resolutions higher than 480p?

this is an intriguing question, and the answer is going to be very personal for everyone as everyone has different priorities. for me the big draws a CRT still has over any HDTV is motion resolution and zero added input lag. even the most expensive displays today (OLEDs) still fail to meet these requirements.

for sixth and seventh generation systems like the GC/Wii I do prefer to play those games in 16:9, but I only have access to 4:3 crts. my personal solution for the Wii is using actual hardware but heavily processed. (OSSC+HD3000) that's the only solution I've found to make the Wii (and pretty much all widescreen 480p content) passable on an HDTV set. (every other standalone solution I've tried has been mediocre to terrible)

Spoiler

yeah that was a bit on the high side (although I think the images still look pretty darn sharp), but I was interested in seeing what would happen to the scanlines and if I can get the colors to bleed a little bit (only seems to work on red).

more of a test than a final recipe, especially since I haven't even had time to test all of the pixel perfect settings from the wiki (anyone taken some good comparison screenshots of those yet?)

side question: how are the OSSC scanline patterns generated? is it based on the input resolution of the game? or the output resolution of the OSSC? is it a set stock pattern every time?

Sega 6-Pak






(display is Asus VW246h, processor is vp50pro, output resolution is 1080p, image enhancements are, EE-100, DE-0, color saturation+25, underscan 10%, so that the image fills the entire screen)

American Sega Genesis CDX: Scart RGB (OSSC 240p line triple) (scanlines 100%)

Spoiler

I did some testing of the HD3000+OSSC and got some very nice results. unfortunately the HD3000 has some compatibility issues with a few of the OSSC's features.

OSSC direct 480p and 240p lineX2 modes, work fantastically with every system I've tried (even SNES). however 240p lineX3, LineX4 and LineX5 do not work on the HD3000 (just gives a "no signal" message) same with 480pX2 and 240p/480i passthrough (no signal). a bit disappointing but not really a problem as the HD3000 is known for its (legendary?) 480p upscaling!

(but I would love to hear any ideas you guys might have for settings to try with the HD3000 to improve compatibility)
@marqs, any idea why 480i passthrough wouldn't be working? (HD3000 seems to work fine with every other 480i HDMI source I've fed into it)


Sega Dreamcast VGA+OSSC+HD3000, OSSC 480p mode:DTV (without DTV setting HD3000 will see the resolution incorrectly as 640x480 instead of the proper 480p)

(VGA Box made by Thefoo.83)
Game: Soulcalibur (1999)












Nintendo Wii+OSSC+HD3000, OSSC 480p mode: Auto, scanlines: 100%

Game: Streets of Rage 2: Syndicate Wars(2012) via retroarch wii)

Spoiler

and another Video test.

OSSC+HD3000

Quick PS3 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI0dVxim554

(I just noticed some questions and comments directed at me in the thread, I'll reply once I get home. thanks!)

Spoiler

Quick Video of Wii+OSSC+HD3000 (captured with UHD-60 usb3.0) (Nvidia gtx 750ti NVENC low latency)

Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLiz1exbhmo

(please set video quality to 1080p60)

Spoiler

Samsung LN40+OSSC line 5x with help from a VP50(non pro) scanlines: 100%

[evil_ash_xero]

Nothing specific. Just systems I want to hook up via XRGB3.

I'd be pretty curious to see how Valkyrie Profile 2 looks, to be honest. It's a pretty jaggy game, and without any kind of softener....yikes, it looks terrible.

What device would be best for what I'm looking to do?

[Blair]

Nothing specific. Just systems I want to hook up via XRGB3.

I'd be pretty curious to see how Valkyrie Profile 2 looks, to be honest. It's a pretty jaggy game, and without any kind of softener....yikes, it looks terrible.

What device would be best for what I'm looking to do?

hold on, why are you running 480i PS2 games through the XRGB3? from what I understand it's actually not a great processor for interlaced content, I've even heard some say it's one of the worst. Have you tested out any of the PS2 GSM selector resolutions to see if that improves it on your display? ( you would probably want to test that without the XRGB3) (XRGB3 is best suited to 240p content)

(alternatively, If you have a powerful enough PC emulation might be something to consider. as you could pretty much a eliminate aliasing completely that way)

what's the make/model and age of the television you want to play ps2 games on? you probably would get better results by using a component to HDMI transcoder directly into the TV. (depending on how your television processes analog or digital 480i signals)

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, what would be a good device for 240 signals then?

[Blair]

Well, what would be a good device for 240 signals then?

your XRGB3 is perfect for 240p signals, it's just 480i that seems to struggle with. Any of the processors I mentioned would give you pretty good to great performance with 480i (although Fudoh has stated that the frame Meister is one of the best processors ever conceived for 480i gaming, even though it does have around 22ms of input lag) before you look into getting anymore external processors you should try to figure out if you can get an acceptable picture out your televisions own processing. ( I'm assuming you're trying to find a solution that fits within a specific budget? if you're not on a budget than that gives us a lot more options.)

Something to start with is finding the neutral sharpness level of your display (on my Samsung it's 0) turning off all processing features and entering gamemode if applicable. How do you usually hook up your PS2? (component or scart RGB?)

[evil_ash_xero]

The XRGB 3 is good for those signals, but I don't have any control over the blurring the pic. I know B0 does some, but I was looking for a slider or something like that.

[Xyga]

The VP 50 Pro features excellent edge and detail enhancers indeed, but those work best with already cleanly doubled/tripled etc souces (meaning you'll need at least an older XRGB or better an OSSC before the VP) or 'non-HDified' arcade ports like some Cave games on the 360 for instance (Ketsui, DOJ, MMP/PS...)
No lag added.

Quite the expensive setup for 240p stuff, it is fit mainly for the minority that doesn't want to use fake scanlines and doesn't like the dirty filters of emulators, or someone who isn't satisfied with the sharpness and other quality control settings of their TV (knowing some like the Sony do a great job by themselves) or even someone who only uses a pc monitor almost devoid of any decent picture quality controls.

Regarding 480i, fully deinterlaced directly by the VP or previously bob-deinterlaced (using an oSSC or XRGB3), those edge and detail enhancers don't help much IMHO...
The Mini remains the best thing...after PCSX2.

[Blair]

yeah Xyga pretty much hit the nail on the head, and unless you can answer any of my questions above I don't think there's much more any of us can do for you. (if you're going down the route of buying another external processor for 480i and you don't want a frame Meister, than something like the DVDO's would be your next best bet, might also want to check out Fudoh's site as he has good recommendations and breakdowns of video processors for different scenarios http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/)

I will say though that unless your display is particularly old there's a pretty good chance that it can process 480i content just as good, if not better than the XRGB3. but without any further information there's no way to tell. the only other advice I can give you is maybe try running through a calibration disc like the free AVS709 calibration disc, or the 240p test suite (it has 240p, 480i and 480p modes you can use for calibration). you'd be surprised how something like that can actually improve your visuals. Once you have everything set to baseline just tweak to taste. (on my set I always have all sharpness and enhancement settings off or at neutral, and I like my colors a little more saturated than most people)

*edit*

looks like you have a Samsung LN32D550 (2011 Model). that set has fairly mediocre processing and does its best work with an external processor feeding it a 1080p signal. its does a better job processing 480i then 480p but its interlaced processing can look very soft (but that sounds like what you might be looking for).

good luck!