It's time to trade in my CRT/PVM for a framemeister

[gravythief]

Hi. I'm looking to change my retro gaming setup from a Sony PVM CRT monitor to an LCD monitor and framemeister. As much as I love CRTs for retro gaming, I have to get with the times.

My concern is specifically around my Gamecube, and I'm hoping I can receive assurances from others who have both a PVM/Framemeister, or people who did a similar transition to me.

I'm happy with everything I've read and seen about 240p content, it looks amazing on the framemeister. I'm also not too concerned about input lag as I don't think I'm that sensitive to it, particularly the types of games I prefer, and I'll be buying an ASUS or BenQ gaming monitor which seem to have extremely low input lag too.

With gamecube, I have a PAL console and both an RGB cable and the component cable. I have mostly US games, so will be playing them in either RGB 480i or Component 480p. I currently play them in RGB 480i on my PVM and I think they look great. I love how smooth they look (minimal jaggies) and the interlaced signal doesn't bother me at all. My concern is that I tried using the component cables on my current LCD TV to give me a flavour of how the GC will perform through the framemeister (many people say that's preferable to even bothering using the framemeister at all), and my goodness it looked ghastly! I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I tired both 480p and 480i. There were obvious jaggies, even though the screen size was similar (my PVM is 20"), and on a 60fps game like Metroid Prime the motion didn't look fluid at all. My current LCD does have a pixel response time of 5ms compared to the ASUS/BenQ's 1ms, so I'm hoping that last point will be mostly rectified.

I've seen loads of YouTube videos of people playing Gamecube games via the Framemeister in both 480i and 480p and they look fine. But as they just show the output from a capture card through YouTube's processing, and on my iPad's screen, I doubt I'm seeing anything like it will actually look on an my LCD monitor.

So I suppose what I would like is some reassurance that the Framemeister with a decent LCD can look similar to what I get on my PVM at 480i. Can anybody compare and advise please? Or better yet, post some close up pictures of a Gamecube game from their LCD running through the Framemeister (either 480i or 480p)? I'm sorry this is probably a lot to ask, but it would be much appreciated

[Fudoh]

For 480i the FM is stellar. For 480p a simple component to HDMI converter without scaling will usually look better than the FM.

So I suppose what I would like is some reassurance that the Framemeister with a decent LCD can look similar to what I get on my PVM at 480i.

no, it will look very different. To emulate an interlaced 480i look you would need something else.

[gravythief]

Thanks for the reply.

I guess what I'm trying to find out (and be happy with) before I make a purchase is that I can get the FM to produce a picture for the GC that I'd be happy with. It doesn't necessarily have to mimic an interlaced look, I was just trying to put across what I like.

What I don't want is for it to look razor sharp and pixelated with sharp jaggies, like you would want with 240p content. Does the FM allow you to make it look softer, even blurred, which smooths out jaggies? Probably goes against what the FM was made to do. I'm just concerned after seeing my GC running directly on my LCD TV, both 480i and 480p, that I may never get a look I'll be happy with.

It's a shame I can't test a FM before committing £300 to one. Hence why I thought getting some pictures taken direct from the screen may be the next best thing. I might just bite the bullet and if I don't like it I can always sell it for close to what I paid, going from eBay prices.

[Fudoh]

You can adjust the FM's sharpness down (even to composite levels) if you like.

But you don't want to buy a FM for that. If you got plenty of 240p sources next to the Cube, the FM's fine, but if you Cube and similar are your main target and you want to go for that more video-like look, I think you'd better off with a video processor like a DVDO.

[gravythief]

I do have have lots of 240p sources too, so it's probably worth me getting an FM regardless (assuming I end up moving away from CRTs completely, which is the plan).

Thanks for the heads up on the DVDO. I haven't heard of that before so I'll do some research. Thanks!

[Fudoh]

Maybe a OSSC + DVDO combo would still be a better choice for you.

[qmish]

is it really a way?

i mean, does framemeister really do crt like things or it's just scanline and stuff imitator
please explain

on a good crt your 240p game looks like it looks on 240p native lcd and not as 240p on 1080p lcd, right?

[gravythief]

Well that's interesting. I remembered I had an old 15" LCD TV in the loft which I've just tested. It's a Sony KDL-15G2000. It must be quite old as it's 4:3 and doesn't have HDMI, and is 768p, but it does have component so I gave it a whirl with the Gamecube. I must say the image is much more acceptable than when I tested my newer 1080p LG HDTV.

It has the usual LCD issues of not being as good in motion as the CRT and black being a dark grey, but the image itself is very close to what I see on the PVM. It looks good in both 480i and 480p. Heck it even looked good with 240p content.

This at least proves to me I can be happy with how GC games look on an LCD TV, so I think I'll take the plunge with the Framemeister, especially how I can soften the image with it. I suspect I prefer the image on this Sony LCD because it's the lower resolution, thus producing a softer image. Also my LG TV probably just isn't very good.

Another question I have which is slightly off topic. I'll be buying a new TV with my framemeister. I'm currently looking at ASUS or BenQ gaming monitors because they're small (21" to 24") and have a 1ms grey to grey response time, which I'm hoping means I can get smooth motion similar to a CRT. They also seem to have favourable input lag compared to most other LCD TVs. Has anybody had a favourable experience pairing up a gaming monitor with the framemeister? My alternative is to get a Sony TV, but the only new ones they seem to do anymore are huge goliaths, so I'd have to go second hand.

[orange808]

No LCD is fast enough.

Google motion blur for a detailed description. Blur Busters is a website that does a good job explaining blur.

When shopping, please remember that your game consoles will refresh at ~60Hz.

[syboxez]

First of all, why do you need to "get with the times?" Do you not have room for your PVM or something? For retro games, nothing can beat a high quality CRT (like a PVM).

As to answer the monitor question, look for a monitor with ULMB to get the CRT-like smooth motion (make sure it works at 60Hz). Note that at 60Hz with ULMB, you will probably get noticeable flicker since there's no phosphor persistence to help ease it like there is on CRTs.

[gravythief]

Yeah I need to clear out my game room (just the small bedroom) to make way for a baby as turning the room into a nursery. I'm able to have the corner of our second lounge for my retro gaming stuff but I can't have the PVM on show. Whilst I love it, it does look extremely industrial and completely out of place in a living room! I'd be ok with a normal consumer CRT, but I'm thinking now is the time to make the move to something that is convenient and future proof. I.e. the Framemeister.

I'll give that term a look you mentioned, thanks for the info. I've just been playing my GC on the Sony LCD I found for a couple of hours and I must say I'm a lot happier than I was when I started this thread. I think I'll be fine with the FM now.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Hoagtech]

I would recommend an OSSC over a framemeister if you are coming from a PVM background.

The lag was always an issue and made playing them on my Lcd unenjoyable.

Having previously owned one. I sold it and never looked back.

I do miss the 1080 output modes of the framemeister and the ability to scale images but the OSSC looks amazing and plays faster the FM.

[gravythief]

I have a couple of worries with the OSSC though. The main one being that it only outputs 480p (720p might have compatibility issues), meaning I'm relying on the TV to do the scaling. After seeing how my LG TV butchered the GC's 480p output I could spend ages finding a TV I'm happy with. Plus that would add lag anyway wouldn't it? From what I understand, if I'm happy with the Framemeister's scaling and lag then I'll always have minimal reliance on a TV's abilities.

Secondly it seems the OSSC is on a waiting list to get one, though I haven't looked very hard for one.

If only I could sit in a room for a day with a Framemeister, an OSSC and a bunch of TVs and Monitors to test out.

[orange808]

ULMB doesn't work at 60Hz.

Once again, find the Blur Busters website for some basic background information and explanation of all the trade offs.

[syboxez]

If the look of the PVM is the only issue, maybe custom vinyl stickers would be an option to make it look a bit less industrial.

[Harrumph]

I have a couple of worries with the OSSC though. The main one being that it only outputs 480p (720p might have compatibility issues), meaning I'm relying on the TV to do the scaling.

If you're getting a computer monitor like you wrote earlier, linex3 compatibility is virtually guaranteed (and reports indicate x4 and x5 is also nearly universally accepted). This also goes for 4k TVs.
Thing about 480i though, the bob-doubling from OSSC doesn't look very good imo, so I prefer to use passthrough, and I'm not sure how often monitors accept digital 480i (even some TVs won't do 480i over HDMI, although clearly a minority).
Tbh though, I think the Framemeister sounds like a pretty good fit for you also.

[TooBeaucoup]

I have no complaints from my Framemeister after coming from nothing but CRTs. Sure, a CRT is going to give you more of that authentic look, but a Framemeister with proper settings still looks fantastic. I have no issues with noticing lag on my Framemeister and I've had some other scalers that were supposed to be good but I hated, due to lag. I, honestly, think you'd be happy with a Framemeister. I have no experience with the OSSC, so I can't comment, but it seems the majority of people are happy with it, despite some compatibility issues with certain TVs. The best thing about the Framemeister is there's, literally, hundreds of picture tweaking options, it's compatible with every capture card I've tried and the lag is no worse than 1-1.5 frames, which I can't notice at all, and I've played A LOT of games on mine. Even though there's tons of YouTube videos out there, I have a lot of gameplay on my YouTube channel, using the Framemeister via RGB with my Genesis and SNES. The scanline look on the unit does look pretty good, although, I don't use it on my YouTube videos because it doesn't show when you capture footage and post to YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TooBokoo/v ... subscriber

[gravythief]

I did look at getting an oak storage cube with a door made for it, to sit on an oak TV cabinet, so it's hidden when not in use. But as it was made to measure I've been quoted nearly £500 for it! More expensive than getting the framemeister and a new TV! I did also look at rolls of stick on wooden veneer to make it look like a CRT from the 80's or earlier! My wife would actually like that as she loves the retro look

I do think the Framemeister will be good for me, and I'll be happy. There's just something about CRTs though that I can't shake. I'm still tempted to just sell the PVM and get a 'portable' 14"/15" CRT instead!

[Ryoandr]

What size is your current PVM ?
You could try DIY wood enclosure or brushed aluminium, or stainless steel, or anything that fit the room.
Also, pretty sure industrial looks will fashionable in like, a year, as fashion sense rotates quite fast and then you'll regret getting rid of the CRT.

[gravythief]

It's the 20" medical version (20M2MDE I think the model is). It will never look good in our house without hiding it away unfortunately! Remember it has to look good to my wife, not just me. To her it looks like it belongs in a CCTV control room, and I can't really argue with that! I was lucky she let me have one in the first place. I do think they would look good in a modern quirky apartment, the ones made from converted factories or mills with lots of bare brick on show.

I am still going to look for a solution to hide it away so I can keep it, but at least I've now determined I could be happy with the Framemeister + LCD, and that's probably what I'll end up with.

[zak]

Try to get cheaper wood for your cube. Oak is expensive. You will regret losing the CRT.

Most scalers will not handle 240p/480i transitions nicely - I thought I could live with this but it bothered more than I thought it would.

Zell found a solution for this with the OSSC + VP50, but he had to reduce image quality to make up for it.

After seeing what retro looks like on a D24 BVM, I don't think I can go back to scalers.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm always a bit puzzled why people are so open to the FM. I like the version before that. It didn't have 2 frames of lag.

[nissling]

As an owner of both a BVM-20F1 and an XRGB-Mini (along an OLED), I think both setups have their charm. Playing on a Grade1 CRT does provide a stellar experience with fantastic color accuracy and a nice, glowing picture. However, one cannot argue against the sharpness of an XRGB-Mini and how much more you can do with a modern display along with it. Playing retro games with 5X scaling through the XRGB-Mini gives a new life to the graphics. Personally I started playing Resident Evil for the Saturn this Summer on my BVM but quickly switched over to my OLED. I've already played it plenty of times on CRTs over the years but the XRGB-Mini and an OLED is a completely different, this time superior (IMO), experience.

Personally I haven't noticed any lag on my XRGB-Mini with my current setup and thus I don't care for it. The only thing that really bugs me with it is the color noise in shadow details, which is the main reason why I reserved an OSSC.

[Xyga]

My 2c on the main reasons to go "flat panel + scaler(s)";
#1 you can use damn bigger screens, not bulky nor heavy, plenty available new everywhere on retail or online and warranted
#2 you can't easily find good rgb crts in ok shape in your area, and you don't have the often serious skills required to properly fix and service those in bad shape

Now do the flat panel + scalers solutions fully reproduce the sensation to play on a crt? No. Actually not even the most advanced emulation shaders really manage, all because most flat panels and response/motion enhancement technologies still don't really do enough to compensate, and kinda waste the desired natural looks and 'life' of crt's.
Maybe one day it'll be okay, just not yet.

STILL, when you have a big flat panel it's better to have controlled clean scaling, fake scanlines and/or fine picture quality control, plus the possibility to get lower lag, than nothing at all, because most flat panel's built-in boards/scalers and firmware simply aren't good enough by themselves to handle all those retro hardwares.

[EnragedWhale]

If only I could sit in a room for a day with a Framemeister, an OSSC and a bunch of TVs and Monitors to test out.

Are you in the UK?

[gravythief]

If only I could sit in a room for a day with a Framemeister, an OSSC and a bunch of TVs and Monitors to test out.

Are you in the UK?

I am yes

[austin532]

Thing about 480i though, the bob-doubling from OSSC doesn't look very good imo

I agree with that. It looks a little on the soft side. At least it does for me in 480p Bob mode. How does it look in 960p Bob mode?

[TooBeaucoup]

I'm always a bit puzzled why people are so open to the FM. I like the version before that. It didn't have 2 frames of lag.

I got a Framemeister, simply because I wanted a true upscaler and not just a line doubler. I was also quite impressed with the Framemeister's feature set. There's a lot of tweaking and adjusting that can be done. I can't count how many different systems that when I've hooked into a modern display had misaligned pictures or messed up colors, all which can be easily adjusted with my Framemeister. The lag, in my opinion is unnoticeable, unless of course you're something like a speed runner whom needs frame by frame accuracy to hit your jumps with pinpoint precision. I've tried a lot of different converters and video processing units and couldn't deal with 95% of them due to lag. The Framemeister was the first unit that I didn't notice lag on. Sure, some people are more prone to noticing, but I think 99% of people would be hard-pressed to tell.

[Ikaruga11]

I think you should keep your PVM, but if you have to switch to an LCD, Plasma or OLED display, then sell your component cables and get GCVideo. Forget about the Framemeister.

You'll save money and the GameCube's picture quality will be much better with GCVideo than Component/RGB + Framemeister, while having a lot more options as well.

[EnragedWhale]

If only I could sit in a room for a day with a Framemeister, an OSSC and a bunch of TVs and Monitors to test out.

Are you in the UK?

I am yes

If you are anywhere near Cambs you'd be welcome to come try out my FM, OSSC + DVDO edge. I no longer have any sort of CRT to directly compare though.