PS2 Ibara Impressions

TalkingOctopus · Post by **TalkingOctopus** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:06 am

judesalmon wrote:I've only played the first couple of levels, but haven't had any slowdown. How come they can do Ibara with no slowdown but Mushihimesama has loads? Are the ports by the same people?

I think Mushihimesama has more sprites on the screen simultaneously, which uses all of the ps2 CPU, causing slow down.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:35 am

As long as the slow down is in the same places as the PCB its all good... Slowdown is your friend.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:51 am

judesalmon wrote:I've only played the first couple of levels, but haven't had any slowdown. How come they can do Ibara with no slowdown but Mushihimesama has loads? Are the ports by the same people?

For the one gazillionth time: Cave games have slowdown in the original version.Ibara, albeit a Cave game, has been developed by former Raizing programmer Shinobu Yagawa.The original version of Ibara (PCB) was designed with no slowdown (to the best of my knowledge).

Why the slowdown? Because Cave programmers have decided, a while ago, that if you have one gazillion bullets on screen, it's easier to survive if they slowdown and thus are more navigable (dodging tons of bullets looks also more badass).The usual counterarguments provided to this argument are, well, pointless: Ikeda thinks in terms of gameplay and japanese arcade settings, not about fat westerners who bitch about frames per seconds.

Now, the amount of slowdown present in ports may be different than the arcade countpart: since there's no ISO standard for this, it's up to the job done by the programmers in porting the game.If the original game slows down to 80% of the speed when there are 100 bullets or more, in the arcade version, and then the port doesn't do that, i would say that the port is unfaithful.

You may ask then: " but i want full speed at any cost!". In that case, i strongly advice against Cave games.The variable slowdown (which isn't homogeneous, it works in a slightly different way in every Cave title) is an integral part of the game's engine, and removing it would mean damaging playability.Slow bullets are easier to dodge.

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:55 am

As the two people who posted before you grasped, I was referring to slowdown not in the original versions.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:36 pm

judesalmon wrote:As the two people who posted before you grasped, I was referring to slowdown not in the original versions.

You actually wrote this:

Judesalmon wrote:I've only played the first couple of levels, but haven't had any slowdown. How come they can do Ibara with no slowdown but Mushihimesama has loads? Are the ports by the same people?

So, as you mention slowdown in the port, slowdown in the Mushi port comes from slowdown in the PCB (it should have less slowdown in the PS2 port, but this is another thread).As i have already said (repetita iuvant, though), Ibara has been developed by Raizing guys, so no slowdown (if you find this disappointing because you find bullets too fast, i can't help, sorry). No slowdown in the arcade version=no slowdown in the PS2, then, something that can be labelled as 'faithful'.Dunno if the porting team is the same, but in this case, they haven't change things.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:08 pm

Ord said earlier in the thread that Ibara PCB has more slowdown. A 'wait on' control a la Garegga would have been nice but you can't expect such things in ports these days it seems, sadly.

TalkingOctopus · Post by **TalkingOctopus** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:23 pm

Why the slowdown? Because Cave programmers have decided, a while ago, that if you have one gazillion bullets on screen, it's easier to survive if they slowdown and thus are more navigable (dodging tons of bullets looks also more badass).The usual counterarguments provided to this argument are, well, pointless: Ikeda thinks in terms of gameplay and japanese arcade settings, not about fat westerners who bitch about frames per seconds.

I honestly think the slowdown is caused by hardware limitations rather than being specifically programmed. I know it seems like the ps2 should be able to handle 2D graphics with ease, but the system is highly optimized for 3D graphics, not 2D. Once you exceed a certain threshold of sprites, the ps2 processor being 100% utilized by the sprite draw operations. When that happens, slow down occurs and the sound effects lag.

Anyway, I agree that this helps gameplay. I know I couldn't survive without it, but I still think they rely on the hardware limitation for gameplay rather than explicitly programming it. I guess the only way to find out for sure is by asking them, but I think there would be much better interview questions anyway.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:58 pm

TalkingOctopus wrote:
Why the slowdown? Because Cave programmers have decided, a while ago, that if you have one gazillion bullets on screen, it's easier to survive if they slowdown and thus are more navigable (dodging tons of bullets looks also more badass).The usual counterarguments provided to this argument are, well, pointless: Ikeda thinks in terms of gameplay and japanese arcade settings, not about fat westerners who bitch about frames per seconds.
I honestly think the slowdown is caused by hardware limitations rather than being specifically programmed.

Sorry, but you answer yourself at a later time:

Anyway, I agree that this helps gameplay. I know I couldn't survive without it, but I still think they rely on the hardware limitation for gameplay rather than explicitly programming it. I guess the only way to find out for sure is by asking them, but I think there would be much better interview questions anyway.

I mean, slowdown is intentional because when it is activated (and if i remember well, Ikeda mentions it in the interview about DDP), your ship keeps going at the same speed, while ONLY bullets slow down, matrix-style.If the slowdown is not intentional, you get both types of objects going slower.On older hardware, they actually had this kind of problem, and they solved it but having random frameskip (DP and DDP should frameskip a bit when there are a lot of bullets, but not enough to trigger wait mode)or slowdown when there was simply too much stuff on screen.However, the aforementioned matrix-approach is intentional.Back in the '90s, it was also much appreciated by the arcade crowds,thus it became a trend.

About Ibara, i'm skeptic: i need to see an arcade video (not seen any, honestly) and check if there is some slowdown, a bit of St.Thomas about this

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:59 pm

Yep the Ibara pcb, like other Cave games, has slowdown. This noticably starts on level 3 when the three trains come out. It's on level 4 too. I don't get past level 4 much though.

This was one of my biggest gripes about the game, as it makes it so much more difficult. Neon is correct, there really should have been a 'wait on' option.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:57 pm

I can confirm with Ord. Just got the PCB today and especially once those 3 trains enter the screen on Stage 3 and everything is going up in flames, the game grinds to a halt.

I think the PS2 could handle these games fine without slowdown, they are purposly programming in the slow down (and mushi is real crappy compared to the pcb)...there was something mentioned about this in the DOJ interview with Mihara I think.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:28 pm

Thanks Cave!Who cares, i'll beat the shit out of the game even if goes twice as fast, like Batsugun and Garegga on Saturn

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:58 pm

Randorama wrote:You actually wrote this:
Judesalmon wrote:I've only played the first couple of levels, but haven't had any slowdown. How come they can do Ibara with no slowdown but Mushihimesama has loads? Are the ports by the same people?

Like I say, the other posters got my meaning, you did not.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:59 am

judesalmon wrote: Like I say, the other posters got my meaning, you did not.

Like i say, Mushihime has slowdown, less than the PCB.Does it answer your smart aleck comments?

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:46 am

Damn, I can see that I'll need to go to the strategy forum if I actually want to read about this game...

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:34 am

I believe the PCBs slowdown originates from lack of hardware umpf, but there are certain algorithms going on keeping it nice and smooth, unlike that PS2 Mushi strobe slowdown effect (which absolutely destroys the game).

Can you expect this slowdown to be present in ports? Certainly. If Arika can do it, (the slowdown on DOJ and Galuda was intentionally emulated) anyone that Taito finances can.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:35 am

Valgar wrote:
I think the PS2 could handle these games fine without slowdown, they are purposly programming in the slow down (and mushi is real crappy compared to the pcb)...

Right you are Valgar. Of course the PS2 can handle these games without slowdown, it's a much more powerful chipset than what Ibara and Mushi run on. I just find it funny how people keep perpetuating this ignorant myth of "OMG there's no way the PS2 can handle all those BULLETS!". Such a joke. And yeah all the slowdown in the PS2 cave ports is programmed in there, it's not due to any huffing and puffing in the PS2's hardware.

judesalmon · Post by **judesalmon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:41 am

Randorama wrote:
judesalmon wrote: Like I say, the other posters got my meaning, you did not.
Like i say, Mushihime has slowdown, less than the PCB.Does it answer your smart aleck comments?

No, but it highlights your inability to grasp the nuances of the English language. Jerk.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:24 am

judesalmon wrote:
No, but it highlights your inability to grasp the nuances of the English language. Jerk.

I take this as your way to say thanks when people explain things to you.It is clear that you can't grasp basic concepts, regardless of the language and the "nuances" (ahahahah, where???). It is absolutely pathetic that you resort to insults, but still, "don't mention it"

Aside from the ramblings of the trolls:

Can someone make a list of the sections with slowdown in the original version? I honestly find a "wait mode" useless, so far, but probably some sections would be easy to do without bombs with wait mode on...

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:14 pm

Judging from Valgar's comments, I look forward to playing the PCB with the correct slowdown. For now I'll use the PS2 port to practice.

-------------------

One slight niggle I have with IBARA is the 1/2 bomb default. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't A.P.Batrider have 1.5 bombs as default?
It seems to be that the 1/2 bomb start is a decision they made at the last minute to tailor the difficulty. Knowing that a 1 bomb respawn would instantly allow you to lock-on and wipe out 1 form of a Boss.
The result is that you must be very sparing with bombs and not utilise most of the bomb points detailed in the booklet.

Regs, DEL

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:17 pm

Randorama wrote:
Aside from the ramblings of the trolls:

Can someone make a list of the sections with slowdown in the original version? I honestly find a "wait mode" useless, so far, but probably some sections would be easy to do without bombs with wait mode on...

I'll play today and make a mental note.

One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:31 pm

Valgar wrote:One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.

Nice to hear that. Does the pcb have the same sprite priority problem as the PS2 version?

The really big bullets (the huge spiky balls in stage 3, the capsules that explode into a circular spread of swords at the fourth boss, the uge missiles the last form of the fifth boss shoots from the center gun, etc.) seem to be on the same layer as the enemy sprites, so they tend to get obscured by, well, almost everything: Explosions, bullets (both own bullets and ones shot by enemies), even the multiplier symbols in arrange mode. Pretty annoying.

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:31 pm

DEL wrote:One slight niggle I have with IBARA is the 1/2 bomb default. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't A.P.Batrider have 1.5 bombs as default?
It seems to be that the 1/2 bomb start is a decision they made at the last minute to tailor the difficulty. Knowing that a 1 bomb respawn would instantly allow you to lock-on and wipe out 1 form of a Boss.
The result is that you must be very sparing with bombs and not utilise most of the bomb points detailed in the booklet.

Ibara has 1/2 bomb as default because it shares many gameplay traits with Garegga (which also has a 1/2 bomb as default). If it was the intention of the developers to have 1 + 1/2 bombs as default, they would have either upped the difficulty to compensate, or alter the gameplay systems to share traits with Batrider and Bakraid.

Shapermc · Post by **Shapermc** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:59 pm

Valgar wrote:One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.

I don't know what people are really complaining about with not being able to see bullets. I am playing this on a 14" TV. The flamethrower things are a little difficult to see, but ONLY because I was not expecting them. They still kind of suprize me from time to time.

After spending a lot of time with the Garegga PCB, the bullets in this are easy to see by comparison.

I think people are confusing hard to see bullets with bullets that seem to come the fuck out of nowhere. Those ones take me by suprize and most of the time I don't know what hit me, but I know they are not invisible.

I only had a couple hours to play last night, and probably won't get in more than a couple games over the next week. But the time I spent with it was really great. I got through the game on 13 credits my first try, I can now get to the second boss on one credit. I was having a lot of fun figuring out all the options and I forgot how much I missed medaling.

Very good and solid game.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:06 pm

About the bomb thing, there are a lot of full bombs to be had and tons of bomb fragments if you know where to look. That's part of the challenge - deciding if you should keep bombing to generate more medals or if you should try and build up hadous for the boss. Suiciding to gain a hadou shot can also be a useful strategy. I've been working on gaining bomb stock in stage 3, and generally I find I can build at least 1 full bomb and a few fragments before I need to bomb anything again.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:05 pm

Valgar wrote:
One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.

I definitely noticed some slight graphical differences between the pcb and the ps2 port when looking at some of the super-replays. A few touches missing from the ps2 port.

Soldato J · Post by **Soldato J** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:50 pm

captain ahar wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:Ye'll walk the plank fer that, ye scurvy ball o' fluff.
i take issue with that, i will playfully prance the plank with my adorable wittle feetses.

and i'm 'a done.

lol (still laughing)

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:04 pm

CMoon wrote:
Valgar wrote:
One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.
I definitely noticed some slight graphical differences between the pcb and the ps2 port when looking at some of the super-replays. A few touches missing from the ps2 port.

über compressed replays aren't really the best comparison.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:36 pm

Neon wrote:
CMoon wrote:
Valgar wrote:
One other thing, if anyone has complained about not being able to see bullets (from the flames to the blue spinning ones) that is the PS2 ports problem. Everything is easy to see in the PCB.
I definitely noticed some slight graphical differences between the pcb and the ps2 port when looking at some of the super-replays. A few touches missing from the ps2 port.
über compressed replays aren't really the best comparison.

*nods* but I was thinking about the places where the compressed replays had more detail than the ps2 port. It isn't major, just little things.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:20 pm

CMoon wrote:
Neon wrote:
CMoon wrote: I definitely noticed some slight graphical differences between the pcb and the ps2 port when looking at some of the super-replays. A few touches missing from the ps2 port.
über compressed replays aren't really the best comparison.
*nods* but I was thinking about the places where the compressed replays had more detail than the ps2 port. It isn't major, just little things.

More detail maybe, but I doubt anything's missing entirely, due to a hardware fault anyways.

@ twe: Not really ignorance per se. Recap had said something to the effect of Cave's SH3 board having more 2d power than ps2, and I'd generally trust him when it comes to technical matters

the fact that Mushi had a lot of slowdown didn't help worries about Ibara. It would seem that if the slowdown was removed without anything else removed (awaiting CMoon's response) that's untrue. But still.

Has anyone looked into hacking the ps2 port to remove scaling + filtering? Or was that just conjecture.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:24 am

Isn't slowdown sometimes intenetional, and for coolness factor, rather than gameplay? The only two examples I can think of are both treasure. Ikaruga boss explosions slow the game down immensely, I believe this was intentional yes? Also, ever noticed Bangai-O slowdown when you fire off a 400 Max death blossom? Also, ever noticed how badass the slowdown makes it? =P

The only shooter I can recall unintentional slowdown that was really irritating was a very mediocre shooter to begin with. R-Type Final; now THAT had slowdown =P Mushihime and Ibara, yeah... Not hardware limitations, shooters aren't THAT demanding.

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PS2 Ibara Impressions

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