RGB lines with caps / Sync Cleaner - 11 Consoles Madness

[Katalysis]

I want all those consoles to run RGB (really component) on my CRT which accepts Component video at best. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

I plan to convert the RGB to Component with the Jrok Encoder. For Sync, I will use a sync stripper from Jrok at the end of the line but as you know, not all consoles output Composite Synch natively. Sending to my JRok Sync Cleaner a variety of signals which, as far as I know, should outpout a nice Composite Sync signal...

Setup: RGB+(CSync or Composite video or Luma or H+V Sync) from consoles → Circuit with a set of 220uF caps and trimpots (to adjust levels) on RGB lines for each console → Mechanical Switch (11 in to 1 out) → JRok Sync Cleaner (for syncs) → JRok RGB to Component Encoder → TV!

My questions:
1) In the SCART world, I beleive all of the RGB lines have 220uf cap on them. But since I use RGB to JRok, is it still advised to put them on? I'm inclined to do so. Also, the jailbars mod (see bellow) for MS and Gen has 220uF caps already so... needs more then?
2) Sending CSync, Composite, Luma, H+V Sync to the JRok Sync Cleaner... Would that be ok?
3) CSync on Master System 1, Genesis 1, 32X, Saturn, (Dreamcast?), apparently output a loud csync signal, for SCART. What about my setup? Will it hurt if I install a 220uF 16V Cap and 470 Ohm resistor on the CSync lines?

- RGB to Component Encoder: http://jrok.com/hardware/RGBv4/index.html
- Sync Cleaner: http://www.jrok.com/project/sync_cleaner/sync_pics.html

NES:
- Installing Tim's pcb with RGB out: https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/
- Using Sync on CS# pin

SNES:
- Installing RGB bypass with DIY Amp: http://retrorgb.com/snes1chipdiy7314.html
- Using CSync if my N64 has it. If not, Sync on Luma or on Composite better?

N64:
- Installing RGB bypass with DIY Amp: http://retrorgb.com/n64rgbmod.html
- Using CSync if my N64 has it. If not, Sync on Luma or on Composite better?

Master System 1:
- Installing Jailbar Mod DIY PCB: Still add more 220uF caps?
- https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/KiETPmh8
- https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1159 ... 3073587650
- Using CSync pin on Multi-Out
- 220uF and 470 Ohm on CSync?

Genesis 1:
- Installing Jailbar Mod DIY PCB (same as MS) Still add more 220uF caps?
- Using CSync pin on Multi-Out
- 220uF and 470 Ohm on CSync?

32x (with Genesis that has Jailbar Mod):
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out
- Using CSync pin on Multi-Out
- 220uF and 470 Ohm on CSync?

Saturn:
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out
- Using CSync pin on Multi-Out
- 220uF and 470 Ohm on CSync?

Dreamcast:
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out (the 15kHz 240p/480i type)
- No sort of VGA adapter
- Using CSync pin 10 on Multi-Out? Or combining V sync (pin 8 ) and H sync (pin 9) to one wire?
- 220uF and 470 Ohm on CSync?

PS1:
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out
- Using Sync on Composite

PS2:
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out
- Using Sync on Composite

XBox (Original):
- RGB signal straight out of the Multi-Out
- SCART (15 kHz RGB) Mode enabled: http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/xbox.htm
- Sync from pin 24... I guess? Is that Composite by any chance?

[Guspaz]

Are you sure the JROK encoder is the right option for you? It's made for arcades, and costs more than professional converters that are made for what you're doing, such as the Shinybow SB-2840. It also doesn't have any sort of standard input, so you're going to need to make a custom converter/adapter, and it isn't pre-calibrated like the Shinybow, which means you're going to need to mess with pots to get things right.

Sync strippers/cleaners add a delay and offset the image, and should only be used when absolutely necessary (a device that requires csync). Since there are good RGB-to-Component converters that work with composite video and luma sync, you should avoid using cables with sync strippers if at all possible.

Caps on the RGB lines is entirely console specific. In fact, an ideal SCART cable has no components in it at all, but some consoles don't output the proper signal and so must be adjusted.

I don't understand why you aren't just getting appropriate SCART cables for each of your consoles and then connecting it to two gscartsw or something.

Console-specific comments on the ones that I'm more familiar with:

NES: Be sure to use the 75-ohm sync option if you're using the mini-din approach. If you're installing a multi AV port and using a cable meant for a SNES, use the TTL sync option.

SNES: Don't use this DIY solution, and don't use a 7314 (with its forced LPF, you don't need an LPF on a CRT). Just buy Voultar's board: http://voultar.com/index.php?route=prod ... duct_id=51

N64: That mod will only work if you specifically have the NS1 N64. If it is, use the Voultar 7374 board. If it's not, you have no choice but to use Tim's N64RGB.

PS1: Use sync on luma, not sync on composite.

PS2: Use sync on luma, not sync on composite. RetroRGB links to the wrong cable, RGC has different cables for the PS1 and PS2, make sure you get the right one.

Xbox: Just buy the RGC XBox sync on composite video cable, you don't need to do any modding.


It seems to me that you are vastly overcomplicating this. RGB mod the consoles that require it, buy the appropriate cables from RGC, plug them into a decent SCART switch like the gscartsw-lite (chained if you need more than 8 inputs), or even something passable like the 16-port Hydra (which isn't terrible), put the output of that into a Shinybow SB-2840.

[Katalysis]

Thanks! I'm making progress.

Are you sure the JROK encoder is the right option for you? It's made for arcades, and costs more than professional converters that are made for what you're doing, such as the Shinybow SB-2840. It also doesn't have any sort of standard input, so you're going to need to make a custom converter/adapter, and it isn't pre-calibrated like the Shinybow, which means you're going to need to mess with pots to get things right.

I already own the JRok encoder but thank you very much for pointing out that it was made for arcade RGB which has a higher level, about 5V instead of scart and vga which is about 1.5V. That being said, I just ordered the Shinybow SB-2840 after researching that indeed it is a very good encoder for my needs. Thank you very much for that.

Sync strippers/cleaners add a delay and offset the image, and should only be used when absolutely necessary (a device that requires csync). Since there are good RGB-to-Component converters that work with composite video and luma sync, you should avoid using cables with sync strippers if at all possible.

Apparently the SB-2840 will take any sync! http://wavebeam.blogspot.ca/2016/09/har ... gb-to.html

Caps on the RGB lines is entirely console specific. In fact, an ideal SCART cable has no components in it at all, but some consoles don't output the proper signal and so must be adjusted.

I don't understand why you aren't just getting appropriate SCART cables for each of your consoles and then connecting it to two gscartsw or something.

It seems to me that you are vastly overcomplicating this. RGB mod the consoles that require it, buy the appropriate cables from RGC, plug them into a decent SCART switch like the gscartsw-lite (chained if you need more than 8 inputs), or even something passable like the 16-port Hydra (which isn't terrible), put the output of that into a Shinybow SB-2840.

Yes it could be perceived as overcomplicated. Why? Money, space and customization. Instead of a fully plug n' play setup, if I can build some of it myself with the parts I own I'll do it. I did order a few days ago the proper scart cables from console5.com, I was not aware or RGC. It's a matter of knowing exactly what's in those scart plugs (cap, resistors...). I will strip their scart plug and solder on a mecanical switcher. Basically a switcher witch no plugs, all soldered on. The only connectors are the consoles one and, at the end, one scart plug into the Shinybow SB-2840.

NES: Be sure to use the 75-ohm sync option if you're using the mini-din approach. If you're installing a multi AV port and using a cable meant for a SNES, use the TTL sync option.

If the CSync out of Tim's board goes to the Shinybow SB-2840, without using the SNES cable, I need to add 75ohm in line? or to ground?

SNES: Don't use this DIY solution, and don't use a 7314 (with its forced LPF, you don't need an LPF on a CRT). Just buy Voultar's board: http://voultar.com/index.php?route=prod ... duct_id=51

N64: That mod will only work if you specifically have the NS1 N64. If it is, use the Voultar 7374 board. If it's not, you have no choice but to use Tim's N64RGB.

Wow! Thanks! As for the N64, I'll have the option for models, I planned to use the NS1.

What about the 7316 instead of 7314? if not then yes I would love both products from Voultar. But it's out of stock... I could build my own with that 7374 if I had the schematic somehow...

PS1: Use sync on luma, not sync on composite.

PS2: Use sync on luma, not sync on composite.

Got it!

RetroRGB links to the wrong cable, RGC has different cables for the PS1 and PS2, make sure you get the right one.

True, apparently they need different capacitors. I bookmarked it at work... so I can't tell their value atm.

[leonk]

wait.. you know that all of Tim's boards accept a component daughterboard, right??

you can skip rgb and get component directly out of nesrgb.

[ChuChu Flamingo]

Whats the difference between PS1 and PS2 RGB scart cables? I see some people put capacitors in PS1 cables, but not in PS2 since it has them built into the console? Retro console accessories doesn't seem to differentiate between them. How does this affect the picture quality?

[Guspaz]

wait.. you know that all of Tim's boards accept a component daughterboard, right??

you can skip rgb and get component directly out of nesrgb.

That would conflict with the RGB to component converter at the end of his display chain, kind of like my setup in reverse where I convert component consoles to RGB so they can fit in my RGB setup (although an RGB card for my PVM would let me have a dedicated YPbPr input to avoid that.

Another option for him would be to connect the output of his component converter to a component switch and then plug all his component consoles into that.

[AndehX]

is the RGB to component converter really necessary? I mean doesn't the TV accept RGB? You'd get a slightly better image since theres no conversion process....

I know you said the TV accepts component at best, but alot of people assume that component is better than RGB. Is it a case of the TV only supports component and not RGB?

[theclaw]

For good or ill composite video sync is the common practice. If unsure what your TV wants, try it first.
Or if you have a random generic RGB SCART cable, it's also most likely using composite video.

Whats the difference between PS1 and PS2 RGB scart cables? I see some people put capacitors in PS1 cables, but not in PS2 since it has them built into the console? Retro console accessories doesn't seem to differentiate between them. How does this affect the picture quality?

My knowledge is limited but I *think* every normal retail PS1, PS2, or PS3, regardless of their region, accepts the same RGB cables.
No idea about anything like dev units or prototypes.

is the RGB to component converter really necessary? I mean doesn't the TV accept RGB? You'd get a slightly better image since theres no conversion process....

I know you said the TV accepts component at best, but alot of people assume that component is better than RGB. Is it a case of the TV only supports component and not RGB?

I can't speak for other regions. North America has CRT SDTVs with component input that don't support RGB or 480p.

[Guspaz]

North American TVs went through a few phases, with some overlap between them

- Antenna only
- RF (F-connector) only
- RF and composite
- RF and composite and S-Video
- RF and composite and component

After that, the more modern migration starts happening (DVI, VGA, HDMI, etc), but by then we're not as interested.

15 kHz RGB was never an option on televisions in North America. I would say it wasn't an option on monitors, but actually some monitors from the 15 kHz era of PCs did support RGB (like some Commodore monitors). But those are very uncommon now, like a PVM/BVM. If you're just talking about a CRT television in North America, there will not be any RGB inputs on it.

[RaphM]

Whats the difference between PS1 and PS2 RGB scart cables? I see some people put capacitors in PS1 cables, but not in PS2 since it has them built into the console? Retro console accessories doesn't seem to differentiate between them. How does this affect the picture quality?

Anybody got a source for the "PS2 RGB cables do not need caps since they are built into the console" info?

Apparently RGC promoted the same cable (with caps) for PS1 and PS2 until some weeks ago, but as of now they introduced a separate PS2 cable (without caps), quoting the above info in their description text. (http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... rt.htm#psx displays both ps1 and ps2 with caps in the cable, but this info may be outdated, maybe there was some recent discovery?)

[Fudoh]

Sony's official RGB cable was marketed as being compatible with both systems. Also I don't think that caps would do anything bad - only the other way around (no caps while you need some) will cause problems.

[FinalBaton]

is the RGB to component converter really necessary? I mean doesn't the TV accept RGB? You'd get a slightly better image since theres no conversion process....

I know you said the TV accepts component at best, but alot of people assume that component is better than RGB. Is it a case of the TV only supports component and not RGB?

North american SD CRTs don't have SCART inputs.

Best we have is component

[CobraKing]

Whats the difference between PS1 and PS2 RGB scart cables? I see some people put capacitors in PS1 cables, but not in PS2 since it has them built into the console? Retro console accessories doesn't seem to differentiate between them. How does this affect the picture quality?

Anybody got a source for the "PS2 RGB cables do not need caps since they are built into the console" info?

Apparently RGC promoted the same cable (with caps) for PS1 and PS2 until some weeks ago, but as of now they introduced a separate PS2 cable (without caps), quoting the above info in their description text. (http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... rt.htm#psx displays both ps1 and ps2 with caps in the cable, but this info may be outdated, maybe there was some recent discovery?)

Would be interesting to know if there's any difference between the PS1 & PS2 cable (image wise)? RGA UK doesn't have stock of the UK cables too.

FWIW, I got the PSX/PS1 cable for my PS2 and it has been working fine.

[mvsfan]

In North America RGB is pretty much nonexistant except on pro monitors.

but some manufacturers like SONY and NEC still built a few RGB tvs here. they have a 34 pin floppy connetor, not scart.