Sony 1354q for $110 or JVC H1700g for $275 ?

[UncleSilver]

I was wondering what opinions were on these two, and whether or not the price difference is justified with the JVC. I'm new to the PVM crowd, but after recently buying a PVM-8040 for $40, I know I wanna be part of this world!

[Xer Xian]

From what I'm seeing that JVC is composite/s-video only (i.e. no way of fitting an RGB input card), so I personally wouldn't offer more than $50-60 or so. While the PVM has lower horizontal resolution than the JVC (600 vs 750 TV lines) it does take RGB, so if it's perfectly working (which is not at all guaranteed given that it's quite old by now) $100 might be an ok price.

[Lord of Pirates]

Are the tubes in decent condition? I wouldn't pay much for any display in bad shape.

[Dochartaigh]

I own both of these. It basically comes down to two things: do you already have an RGB setup? If not, do you want to go down that rabbit hole? Usually involves pricy cables (unless you're into DIY electronics), and even extensive mods of some systems are needed (other systems can output RGB simply by using the right cable). My RGB setup for example, for an Extron switch and all wires for 6x systems and 3x monitors I'm at well over $400 (can do it for cheaper though) - and just my NES alone was $200 to mod for RGB output - my SNES only needed a $22 cable.

If you're not ready for all that S-Video is a perfectly capable video signal. WORLDS above composite. And when comparing S-Video vs. RGB on the *SAME* Professional Video Monitor the difference is EXTREMELY small – they even share the same luminance signal (all the comparison screenshots I've ever seen online always compare a consumer TV with S-Video vs. a BVM/PVM with RGB - not a fair comparison in the least). Some even prefer the dithering over S-Video you get on systems like Sega Genesis. If systems like Nintendo 64 and Game Cube are your thing, their highest quality signal is S-Video (without modding or ~$300 for the Game Cube component cables of course), so you might not ever even have a need for RGB.

Answering the above will get you half way there in deciding between these two monitors.

Besides that I prefer the look of the Sony's scanlines more than the JVC. But if you like the look of arcade monitors then you should like the JVC as well (I believe JVC's use Shadow Mask which most all non-Sony monitors use). I'll tell you what though, those extra TV Lines the JVC has, even over S-Video compared to the Sony's RGB, I have to say I'm pretty sure the JVC is sharper. Really.

Last, 14" is the bare minimum size I would suggest for gaming - and you're going to want to sit REALLY close to it. And forget about 2-player (maybe uncomplicated NES games would be fine but that's about it). 17" has a roughly a THIRD larger viewing area and that really makes a difference.

For the price, I don't really worry about the price much if you can comfortably afford it. I mean, I'm not rich or anything but this is a hobby, we're only talking about a couple hundred bucks either way, so get what will make your happy. $110 for a PVM-1354Q is a good deal (around me, in the last 6 months, they tend to be $175-225 for a 14" with RGB). JVC is a little pricy for not having RGB, but 20" Sony's by me are like $325-500+ and if you don't need RGB the JVC would be a MUCH better size to game on (20" with Composite, S-Video, and RGB would be the ultimate and be better of course

[FinalBaton]

$110 for the PVM is a good deal in the current market

bougth that exact model for $60 two years ago but the prices have soared since then and now they seem to fetch closer to $200

[FinalBaton]

Also, I won't rag on this for too long cause I've already stated that a couples times already but,

there's a sizeable jump in colour fidelity going from S-video to RGB. The difference in that aspect is not what I'd call "extremely small".

But S-video is still very good though. Very sharp.
I've recommended it myself to a friend who wanted a simple and cheap SD CRT setup that'd still look good.

[Lord of Pirates]

For the price, I don't really worry about the price much if you can comfortably afford it. I mean, I'm not rich or anything but this is a hobby, we're only talking about a couple hundred bucks either way, so get what will make your happy. $110 for a PVM-1354Q is a good deal (around me, in the last 6 months, they tend to be $175-225 for a 14" with RGB). JVC is a little pricy for not having RGB, but 20" Sony's by me are like $325-500+ and if you don't need RGB the JVC would be a MUCH better size to game on (20" with Composite, S-Video, and RGB would be the ultimate and be better of course

I disagree. I think going into any hobby with that mindset is a bad idea . Someone should always try to get the best deal they can.

[Xer Xian]

RGB is always gonna be the endpoint for the most dedicated gamers (which means 99% of this forum's userbase) but honestly, after having seen my JVC TM-H150cg display 240p via s-video, I did ask myself if chasing the (very expensive) RGB input card was worth the hassle. And I'm speaking as a RGB SCART user since the PS1 era (currently on my PC CRT monitors through the OSSC). I simply can't find a fault on the 'lesser' JVC without doing an A/B comparison on purpose (at least with the PS1/2 and GC consoles, which are all I've tested the JVC with up to now). Mind you, I don't want to sway anyone going for the RGB route (in fact, I myself have another JVC monitor with the RGB module on the way ), but I do agree with Dochartaigh about the existence of diminishing returns in our hobby (as with all those involving technology), which are worth to be pointed out to newcomers.

On another note, while you US fellas seem to enjoy (?) the most overpriced retrogaming-market on earth, decent deals can still be found even on eBay.com:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PVM-20N6U- ... Swq~tZS9wh
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PVM-20L2MD ... Sw~rpZQIb0
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PVM-1953MD ... Swxu5ZN3Is
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ikegami-HTM1700 ... Sww3tY6AId

So OP, while $100 for a 13" PVM isn't bad at all, you can probably find better deals if you are willing to wait out some more.

[Dochartaigh]

I disagree. I think going into any hobby with that mindset is a bad idea . Someone should always try to get the best deal they can.

I guess this depends on what "best deal" means to you. To me, "best deal" means getting what would make me the most happy, and that has little to do with money (as long as you can comfortably spend that money of course). I personally think the OP should buy BOTH for maximum enjoyment as variety is the spice of life

after having seen my JVC TM-H150cg display 240p via s-video, I did ask myself if chasing the (very expensive) RGB input card was worth the hassle

.......

I do agree with Dochartaigh about the existence of diminishing returns in our hobby (as with all those involving technology), which are worth to be pointed out to newcomers.

My TM-H1700G was the monitor which made me think the very same! I have the H150CG as well (both are 750+ TVL over S-Video), but the larger 17" won me over.

You saw this RGB mod tutorial, right? Seems very easy: http://imgur.com/gallery/jPoZK

[FinalBaton]

Those JVC have crazy sharp tubes

[Dochartaigh]

Also, I won't rag on this for too long cause I've already stated that a couples times already but,

there's a sizeable jump in colour fidelity going from S-video to RGB. The difference in that aspect is not what I'd call "extremely small".

Which one do you like better, left or right?

http://i.imgur.com/zdXqfSW.jpg

I'll tell you what 4 people totally not into this RGB thing (but into video games) told me after you reply...


Or a bigger sample:
http://i.imgur.com/qArlp4l.jpg

Or even bigger lol:
http://i.imgur.com/ZythfSD.jpg

(and these are COMPLETELY not scientific at all, and vary greatly on my crappy cell phone and what it feels like doing and in what part of the hz? or whatever cycle the monitor is going through at that instant, different line counts, connection types, sizes, etc. etc. etc. etc...and how the real thing looks a TON better on all screens in person!)

[FinalBaton]

well, I guess picture quality is in the eye of the beholder

To me RGB is so worth it over S-video

[FinalBaton]

Which one do you like better, left or right?

http://i.imgur.com/zdXqfSW.jpg

I'll tell you what 4 people totally not into this RGB thing (but into video games) told me after you reply...


Or a bigger sample:
http://i.imgur.com/qArlp4l.jpg

Or even bigger lol:
http://i.imgur.com/ZythfSD.jpg

(and these are COMPLETELY not scientific at all, and vary greatly on my crappy cell phone and what it feels like doing and in what part of the hz? or whatever cycle the monitor is going through at that instant, different line counts, connection types, sizes, etc. etc. etc. etc.)

I can only talk about my monitors. About what I've seen with my own eyes.

Also, see my post above.

[Hoagtech]

well, I guess picture quality is in the eye of the beholder

To me RGB is so worth it over S-video

Agreed. The Biggest fault of Svideo is the lack of progressive scan support on most sets. The jumpy lines drive me crazy. If s-video was 240p supported I would say the difference would be more negligible.

[UncleSilver]

Lol, so much awesome info here! I have some time to decide, so I'm gonna get into research mode. Thank you guys SO much!

[Xer Xian]

You saw this RGB mod tutorial, right? Seems very easy: http://imgur.com/gallery/jPoZK

Thanks, yes I've seen it, very interesting stuff that's probably possible to implement even for a non-techie like me. I now have an IF-C01COMG in the mail though so I've kinda put it aside for the time being.

About s-video vs RGB, I struggled as well to find a meaningful A/B comparison on the web. I do think though that on the first link you posted the image on the right is a bit less sharp than the other - were those shots taken from the same monitor with the two connections, or from different monitors? I personally didn't discern such a relevant difference on these two setups (click on the image to zoom):

DDP PS1 -> official RGB SCART cable -> OSSC Line2x (w/ mild scanlines overlay) -> Hd Fury 1 -> LaCie Electron IV (9300K color temperature): link
DDP PS1 -> official S-Video cable -> JVC TM_H150CG (9300K color temperature): link

Hardly an A/B comparison since several variables were not kept constant (monitor, in-between devices, camera, frames), but enough to get the idea - s-video is not evidently inferior to RGB when directly fed to a pro CRT monitor. Of course the outcome will most likely be very different when you need to digitize and process the signal for flat screen displays, or maybe even when directly fed to consumer CRTs.

The Biggest fault of Svideo is the lack of progressive scan support on most sets. The jumpy lines drive me crazy. If s-video was 240p supported I would say the difference would be more negligible.

If by progressive scan you mean 480p, then yes s-video is useless for that. 240p though is perfectly fine over s-video.

[Hoagtech]

You saw this RGB mod tutorial, right? Seems very easy: http://imgur.com/gallery/jPoZK

Thanks, yes I've seen it, very interesting stuff that's probably possible to implement even for a non-techie like me. I now have an IF-C01COMG in the mail though so I've kinda put it aside for the time being.

About s-video vs RGB, I struggled as well to find a meaningful A/B comparison on the web. I do think though that on the first link you posted the image on the right is a bit less sharp than the other - were those shots taken from the same monitor with the two connections, or from different monitors? I personally didn't discern such a relevant difference on these two setups (click on the image to zoom):

DDP PS1 -> official RGB SCART cable -> OSSC Line2x (w/ mild scanlines overlay) -> Hd Fury 1 -> LaCie Electron IV (9300K color temperature): link
DDP PS1 -> official S-Video cable -> JVC TM_H150CG (9300K color temperature): link

Hardly an A/B comparison since several variables were not kept constant (monitor, in-between devices, camera, frames), but enough to get the idea - s-video is not evidently inferior to RGB when fed to a pro CRT monitor. Of course the outcome will most likely be very different when you need to digitize and process the signal for flat screen displays.

The Biggest fault of Svideo is the lack of progressive scan support on most sets. The jumpy lines drive me crazy. If s-video was 240p supported I would say the difference would be more negligible.

If by progressive scan you mean 480p, then yes s-video is useless for that. 240p though is perfectly fine over s-video.

I have no option to set the image to progressive on most of the CRT's I've used. My Sony WEGA had a progressive option for s-video sources but I have not found one since.

On my Megaview I get a lot of line tremble with no option to set my Panasonic 3DO to progressive scan 240p.

Which is too bad because I really enjoy playing SSF2 and Cannon fodder on it. But those shaky lines are irritating. Is there a way you know of forcing progressive on svideo?

[Xer Xian]

Nope, sorry man - those big Mitsu monitors are nonexistent over here, and honestly I know nothing about the Panasonic 3DO.

[Hoagtech]

Also, I won't rag on this for too long cause I've already stated that a couples times already but,

there's a sizeable jump in colour fidelity going from S-video to RGB. The difference in that aspect is not what I'd call "extremely small".

Which one do you like better, left or right?

http://i.imgur.com/zdXqfSW.jpg

I'll tell you what 4 people totally not into this RGB thing (but into video games) told me after you reply...


Or a bigger sample:
http://i.imgur.com/qArlp4l.jpg

Or even bigger lol:
http://i.imgur.com/ZythfSD.jpg

(and these are COMPLETELY not scientific at all, and vary greatly on my crappy cell phone and what it feels like doing and in what part of the hz? or whatever cycle the monitor is going through at that instant, different line counts, connection types, sizes, etc. etc. etc. etc...and how the real thing looks a TON better on all screens in person!)

I hear you. A while back when I first started to use Scart Boxes and the Framemeister I didn't like the way my N64 and PS1 games were over pixelized so I used the video modes to blend the image to see missing detail.

I was ridiculed for liking the smoothed image and my tastes were even compared the Gullivers Travels updated Blu-Ray Cover (pretty funny actually).

But how am supposed to know what shape of the earing Cloud is wearing if it is deconstructed into perfect color filled pixels?

Spoiler

temp image host

[Hoagtech]

Photobucket WTF!! google that for a laugh.

Here is the picture comparison from another hosting site

Smoothed vs Pixelated. Look at his earing

Spoiler

temp image host

[FinalBaton]

Hoagtech, there's a mod you can perform on certain 3DO models to get it to output 240p. This is worth investigating into IMO

[Dochartaigh]

About s-video vs RGB, I struggled as well to find a meaningful A/B comparison on the web. I do think though that on the first link you posted the image on the right is a bit less sharp than the other - were those shots taken from the same monitor with the two connections, or from different monitors?

2x monitors, 2x Playstations running Rayman - one using official Sony S-Video cable, the other a coaxial shielded RGB cable. Left is S-Video, right is RGB. Photos aren't really meant to show sharpness, but just how colors appear over the two input types. I honestly don't know which I like more - the S-Video usually seems to have richer blacks for some reason (I also have some other comparison photos comparing them to a BVM-D20F1U which had the white balance calibrated with a BKM-14L - and those seem to show the same kind of differences as well).

[Einzelherz]

My experience with svhs on Sony pvms has the blacks getting a tiny bit crushed. Admittedly though I've never calibrated them for svhs, just rgb/comp, so some of that could probably be fixed.

[UncleSilver]

Also, I won't rag on this for too long cause I've already stated that a couples times already but,

there's a sizeable jump in colour fidelity going from S-video to RGB. The difference in that aspect is not what I'd call "extremely small".

Which one do you like better, left or right?

http://i.imgur.com/zdXqfSW.jpg

I'll tell you what 4 people totally not into this RGB thing (but into video games) told me after you reply...


Or a bigger sample:
http://i.imgur.com/qArlp4l.jpg

Or even bigger lol:
http://i.imgur.com/ZythfSD.jpg

(and these are COMPLETELY not scientific at all, and vary greatly on my crappy cell phone and what it feels like doing and in what part of the hz? or whatever cycle the monitor is going through at that instant, different line counts, connection types, sizes, etc. etc. etc. etc...and how the real thing looks a TON better on all screens in person!)

I kinda liked 1 and 7. What are they?

[Dochartaigh]

I kinda liked 1 and 7. What are they?

You choose 2 out of 3 of the S-Video monitors (just like everybody else not into these I've ever asked -in person- which they like better)

1 JVC TM-H150CG, 750 TV Lines, S-Video
2 Sony PVM-14M2U, 600, RGB
3 JVC TM-H1700G, 750, S-Video
4 JVC TM-1650SU, 550, RGB
5 Sony BVM-14F5U, 800, RGB
6 Sony BVM-D20F1U, 900, RGB (white balance calibrated with probe)
7 Sony PVM-14N5U, 500, S-Video

But like I said before, totally not a standardized test in any way, shape, or form (I lack the time and/or skill to properly take uniform photos of all these monitors).